More peace

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='mhawk' date='28 February 2010 - 02:28 AM' timestamp='1267342341' post='2207922']
Maybe if you gave white peace around to everyone, but no you demanded more reps than all other wars combined.
[/quote]
A white peace for the New Pacific Order?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='That-one-place' date='28 February 2010 - 01:17 AM' timestamp='1267341662' post='2207890']
Ethics are an important feature to have on CN. Nemesis tossed the thought of reps around for days and after much thought, found that it was in the best interest of the alliance to ask for the minimal reps that we asked for. If there is no honor in looking out for a fellow Nemesis member or the alliance as whole I don't know what is. If it was not honorable to ask for reps now it would have been seen not honorable to let our alliance stagnate and fall off the cyberverse in the future.
[/quote]

honestly, i could see that stance if Sparta had not been asking for 800 million. you have (from what i can see from Nemesis's Chart) have lost around 270k since the Jan. 29th and 300k since the 4th. TOOL has lost half their NS (4 million) since the 29th. so by those standards, you are basically gonna force TOOL to stagnate and fall off the cyberverse.

also, i am sure that Nemesis would have allies that would lend a helping hand in terms of aid and all that if you truly needed it. the only saving grace i see for the reps from Nemesis is that 50% will be tech deals.

[mhawk]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='27 February 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1267342462' post='2207925']
A white peace for the New Pacific Order?
[/quote]
I'm just pointing out that stating, "no one should be against us because we gave white peace" comical when one asked for more reps than all other wars combined.

[mhawk]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='27 February 2010 - 11:31 PM' timestamp='1267342517' post='2207926'] the only saving grace i see for the reps from Nemesis is that 50% will be tech deals.
[/quote]
I don't believe it is tech deals. I believe they are 100 tech = 3m from the total of 300m.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='mhawk' date='28 February 2010 - 02:32 AM' timestamp='1267342567' post='2207929']
I'm just pointing out that stating, "no one should be against us because we gave white peace" comical when one asked for more reps than all other wars combined.
[/quote]
Amusingly, the New Pacific Order is not engaged in this fight, but some alliances that received white peace are/were. What kind of conclusion does one draw from that?

Edited February 28, 2010 by Arcturus Jefferson

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='mhawk' date='27 February 2010 - 11:28 PM' timestamp='1267342341' post='2207922']
Maybe if you gave white peace around to everyone, but no you demanded more reps than all other wars combined.
[/quote]

Disingenous considering inflation, and you know what? The only people who could justify continuing their vengeance quest is NPO and Echelon. Everyone else got off with [i]nothing[/i] in that war. You haven't taken advantage of it, you've simply continued on the same path as pre-Karma only stripped of the authority/power Q gave you. Same people, same treaties, same sides.

You can't spit on your first chance and expect another.

[That-one-place]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='28 February 2010 - 07:31 AM' timestamp='1267342517' post='2207926']
honestly, i could see that stance if Sparta had not been asking for 800 million. you have (from what i can see from Nemesis's Chart) have lost around 270k since the Jan. 29th and 300k since the 4th. TOOL has lost half their NS (4 million) since the 29th. so by those standards, you are basically gonna force TOOL to stagnate and fall off the cyberverse.

also, i am sure that Nemesis would have allies that would lend a helping hand in terms of aid and all that if you truly needed it. the only saving grace i see for the reps from Nemesis is that 50% will be tech deals.
[/quote]

Have we took in to consideration the size of Nemesis, compared to the size of TOOL? Also, while we are on this kick. How about the size of Sparta, and the minimal amount that they asked for?

I am not doubting that IAA would not come to our aid.

Edited February 28, 2010 by That-one-place

[the dakotans]

[quote name='mhawk' date='28 February 2010 - 12:34 AM' timestamp='1267342664' post='2207930']
I don't believe it is tech deals. I believe they are 100 tech = 3m from the total of 300m.
[/quote]

You would be correct.

[mhawk]

[quote name='Xiphosis' date='27 February 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1267342702' post='2207934']
Disingenous considering inflation, and you know what? The only people who could justify continuing their vengeance quest is NPO and Echelon. Everyone else got off with [i]nothing[/i] in that war. You haven't taken advantage of it, you've simply continued on the same path as pre-Karma only stripped of the authority/power Q gave you. Same people, same treaties, same sides.

You can't spit on your first chance and expect another.
[/quote]
So you consider our terms in Karma as white peace?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='28 February 2010 - 01:23 AM' timestamp='1267342022' post='2207904']
I don't necessarily mean "don't honor treaties" so much as "don't [u]have[/u] treaties that you won't like the consequences of honoring." If you ally with someone who starts fights, expect consequences if they bite off more than they can chew. And I mean generally speaking, beyond this recent war - there are a lot of good alliances all over that have treaties with idiots (or who are treatied to people who are treatied to idiots).

That's the downside of the ridiculous treaty chaining - you may end up losing to people who want to hurt you. If you're smart, you stay out of it; if you live by the sword though, you can die by it.
[/quote]

i agree with this to a point. TOOL has not really been the ones who have complained about the reps. mostly third parties have as is typical. (though one TOOL member has i believe)

though beware since many of the alliances that took reps or are stating that the reps are nothing and should have been more, may find themselves on the wrong end. while some may accept it, i doubt most would.

[mhawk]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='27 February 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1267342683' post='2207932']
Amusingly, the New Pacific Order is not engaged in this fight, but some alliances that received white peace are/were. What kind of conclusion does one draw from that?
[/quote]
I could draw the conclusion that if someone kidnapped your friend and put him into slavery, but made sure to make him sign a statement stating he is no longer related to you... that just maybe you might not think so highly of the kidnappers. Additionally I wouldn't consider TPF getting off with white peace in karma war, nor did I find the attacks in Dec/Jan amusing.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='28 February 2010 - 02:31 AM' timestamp='1267342517' post='2207926']
you are basically gonna force TOOL to stagnate and fall off the cyberverse.
[/quote]

1.7bil \ 3 mil

~560 aid slots.

~200 members

Say the top half of the alliance is still in shape to help pay or will be by the time its due.

~560 aidslots / 100 members

One aid cycle if they give it an epic go. Two if they try hard, 3 if they take it easy.

A month. At most.

But wait, they have 120 days from the end of the conflicts to pay, that's 12 aid cycles.

~560 aidslots \ 12 cycles = ~47 slots a cycle.

Their top 50 nations could use one slot a cycle and pay it off in time.

Yet you think this will cause them to stagnate and fall off the face of the cyberverse? Damn, clearly I'm giving TOOL way more credit as a functioning alliance than you do.

Edit: yes I'm aware that some of that it in tech would theoretically slow it down, but then again a large nation sends 3 mil to a small nation, the small nation sends the tech and pockets the difference, if TOOL has even halfway competent IA they will pay this off swiftly, while rebuilding.

Edited February 28, 2010 by TypoNinja

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='That-one-place' date='28 February 2010 - 01:35 AM' timestamp='1267342725' post='2207935']
Have we took in to consideration the size of Nemesis, compared to the size of TOOL? Also, while we are on this kick. How about the size of Sparta, and the minimal amount that they asked for?

I am not doubting that IAA would not come to our aid.
[/quote]

do not forget MA as well. plus again, TOOL just got out of being beaten in a war as well. if you feel that Nemesis is in a rut for losing 30% of your NS (from its high point) and is in desperate need of these reps, then you must surely agree that TOOL is in a worse bind having lost 50% of their NS and now has to pay out reps instead of rebuild.

so you call it minimal while stating that Nemesis is in desperate need of the $300 million while neglecting the fact that TOOL took a far worse beating than Nemesis did.

[rtellez06]

o/ TOOL! Fun war, cool people I fought. To Evileel, tis was fun!

[AAAAAAAAAAGGGG]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='27 February 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1267341742' post='2207895']
No the most egregious actions of the Hegemony would be starting aggressive war for shady reasons, to which NPO bore the brunt of to the tune of way more than the slap on the wrist TOOL just got. (Hey wait, aggressive wars? That's another way of saying preemptive strike isn't it?)

NPO is STILL under terms, TOOL could get out in a week with a decent push. The sob squad in here is just amusing. TOOL isn't even required to disarm, AND they have time to rebuild while the war ends, plus there's no outside aid restrictions. If these reps (which could be cleared in a month while slacking, or in a week with a major effort) are so heinous to your eyes I would invite you to put your money where your mouth is, literally.

Your attempts at moral outrage lack authenticity, in the case of certain AA's it becomes downright hilarious.
[/quote]

I think TypoNinja just summed up my thoughts right here.

If TOOL worked hard at these reps, they'd have them done in no time. If 54 TOOL nations used five slots to pay Sparta 3mil each, they'd have Sparta's reps paid off immediately. Considering that's about a quarter of the alliance, that's not hard.

These terms aren't the worst I've seen, and while I prefer a lack of terms, it's nothing to cry about.

[Archon]

[quote name='mhawk' date='28 February 2010 - 02:27 AM' timestamp='1267342272' post='2207914']
I'm sure there was a ton of oppression on RIA via their MDoAP with NPO during the time of "tyranny".
[/quote]

The MK/NPO MDP did wonders

[Delta1212]

[quote name='mhawk' date='28 February 2010 - 02:27 AM' timestamp='1267342272' post='2207914']
I'm sure there was a ton of oppression on RIA via their MDoAP with NPO during the time of "tyranny".
[/quote]
Yes, because we always held that treaty and didn't lose two of the three major wars between the time WUT took power in GWII and Q fell in Karma.

And funnily enough, the treaty didn't help all that much, since I still got to spend a day ignoring the football game I was at trying to convince my allies in NPO not to roll an alliance I had a bloc level treaty with in an effort to keep them from curbstomping me and my allies. It ended with me having to see a friend get thrown to the wolves Nd placed on a ZI list based on, at best circumstantial evidence, and at worst nothing but conjecture. Dilber played the whole thing like it was a joke. (Love you anyway).

That was about the point I stopped taking our treaty seriously, incidentally.

[Dexomega]

Those reps are far beyond reasonable. Honestly making someone pay more than the inflicted in this sort of war? I am disappoint.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Dexomega

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='28 February 2010 - 01:40 AM' timestamp='1267343013' post='2207945']
1.7bil \ 3 mil

~560 aid slots.

~200 members

Say the top half of the alliance is still in shape to help pay or will be by the time its due.

~560 aidslots / 100 members

One aid cycle if they give it an epic go. Two if they try hard, 3 if they take it easy.

A month. At most.

But wait, they have 120 days from the end of the conflicts to pay, that's 12 aid cycles.

~560 aidslots \ 12 cycles = ~47 slots a cycle.

Their top 50 nations could use one slot a cycle and pay it off in time.

Yet you think this will cause them to stagnate and fall off the face of the cyberverse? Damn, clearly I'm giving TOOL way more credit as a functioning alliance than you do.
[/quote]

not really. i am stating that if T-O-P feels that Nemesis is in such a state given the stats of Nemesis, then obviously TOOL would be in a worse state, given the fact that TOOL lost a whole lot more than Nemesis did.

i understand that they can pay this before the terms are up. i am just stating that the money would most likely be better served within their alliance. since Xiph brought this up, this is the age of warchests after all, so since Xiph and others think that TOOL should have warchests enough to pay bills and rebuild, then obviously Sparta, Nemesis, and MA should have warchests of more than sufficient size to rebuild with such wonderful ease since all think that TOOL will have such an easy time paying reps while rebuilding.

i am sorry if you do not get the fact that i tend to use other people's arguments against them mainly to show them how ridiculous their arguments are.

[mhawk]

[quote name='TheNeverender' date='27 February 2010 - 11:41 PM' timestamp='1267343124' post='2207950']
The MK/NPO MDP did wonders
[/quote]
Worked better than the PC/TPF NAP.

[Fantastico]

How did Xiphosis become today's voice of karmic justice for anyone, let alone TOOL?

I mean, seriously? GOD was just as much an active part of the old hegemony as TOOL or even Sparta was.

I want my money back!

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='mhawk' date='28 February 2010 - 02:39 AM' timestamp='1267342976' post='2207944']
I could draw the conclusion that if someone kidnapped your friend and put him into slavery, but made sure to make him sign a statement stating he is no longer related to you... that just maybe you might not think so highly of the kidnappers. Additionally I wouldn't consider TPF getting off with white peace in karma war, nor did I find the attacks in Dec/Jan amusing.
[/quote]
And that's a terrible analogy because the NPO wasn't kidnapped off the street while they were minding their own business.

I never said TPF got white peace, either. But some alliances did and they were in this fight. Pattern recognition is a good survival trait, and that applies to both sides of this war.

And I never even understood what the December/January thing was about and it boiled over before people I cared about got hurt.

[mhawk]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='27 February 2010 - 11:42 PM' timestamp='1267343130' post='2207951']
Yes, because we always held that treaty and didn't lose two of the three major wars between the time WUT took power in GWII and Q fell in Karma.

And funnily enough, the treaty didn't help all that much, since I still got to spend a day ignoring the football game I was at trying to convince my allies in NPO not to roll an alliance I had a bloc level treaty with in an effort to keep them from curbstomping me and my allies. It ended with me having to see a friend get thrown to the wolves Nd placed on a ZI list based on, at best circumstantial evidence, and at worst nothing but conjecture. Dilber played the whole thing like it was a joke. (Love you anyway).

That was about the point I stopped taking our treaty seriously, incidentally.
[/quote]
If you had such disdain for them as tyrants, why didn't you drop the treaty? If you are so enraged with people defending people indirectly on the owf, why was that same anger not enough to drop the treaty you considered supporting a tyrant? It is hard to take your lectures seriously about how horrible something was when you wouldn't take basic steps to make your stance clear before hand.

[mhawk]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='27 February 2010 - 11:48 PM' timestamp='1267343502' post='2207958']
And that's a terrible analogy because the NPO wasn't kidnapped off the street while they were minding their own business.

I never said TPF got white peace, either. But some alliances did and they were in this fight. Pattern recognition is a good survival trait, and that applies to both sides of this war.

And I never even understood what the December/January thing was about and it boiled over before people I cared about got hurt.
[/quote]
Pattern recognition is a good survival trait, yet you don't care until something reaches your friends. Well thats probably very close to why "they were in this fight". How could anyone have known Polar would jump the shark? None of us are even allied to Polar.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='28 February 2010 - 02:44 AM' timestamp='1267343308' post='2207953']
not really. i am stating that if T-O-P feels that Nemesis is in such a state given the stats of Nemesis, then obviously TOOL would be in a worse state, given the fact that TOOL lost a whole lot more than Nemesis did.
[/quote]

No not really, you are attempting to pass off a fallacy as sound reasoning, while ignoring relative damage, and starting strengths.

[quote]
i understand that they can pay this before the terms are up. i am just stating that the money would most likely be better served within their alliance. since Xiph brought this up, this is the age of warchests after all, so since Xiph and others think that TOOL should have warchests enough to pay bills and rebuild, then obviously Sparta, Nemesis, and MA should have warchests of more than sufficient size to rebuild with such wonderful ease since all think that TOOL will have such an easy time paying reps while rebuilding.
[/quote]

Well of course from TOOL's point of view they'd rather spend their own money on them selves, but golly gee willikers batman, that's just not how it works when you lose a war.

[quote]
I am sorry if you do not get the fact that i tend to use other people's arguments against them mainly to show them how ridiculous their arguments are.
[/quote]

Try harder, it didn't work.