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FOK Declaration of War


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[quote name='AirMe' date='24 February 2010 - 11:32 AM' timestamp='1267029387' post='2201539']
You know what, here is the deal. You can all complain about bawwwwww C&G won't stop the war bawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, however if you can't do the time don't commit the crime. TOP attacked thinking they had an advantage, you guys now realize you don't and you want to get out of it and you are trying your hardest to pin the blame on C&G. If you don't want a protracted war, don't attack the people that will fight until there is nothing left to fight with to defend their homeland.

Again Bob, I am going to accuse you of being intentionally obtuse.
[/quote]
Basically this. Im surprised its working as well as it is. You need one hell of a propaganda department to get people to actually believe that you are the victim after a preemptive strike.

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[quote name='AirMe' date='24 February 2010 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1267029387' post='2201539']
You know what, here is the deal. You can all complain about bawwwwww C&G won't stop the war bawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, however if you can't do the time don't commit the crime. TOP attacked thinking they had an advantage, you guys now realize you don't and you want to get out of it and you are trying your hardest to pin the blame on C&G. If you don't want a protracted war, don't attack the people that will fight until there is nothing left to fight with to defend their homeland.

Again Bob, I am going to accuse you of being intentionally obtuse.
[/quote]

Read all the post related to the one you replied to, and you'll see that it has nothing to do with what you are talking about. So no, there's not the deal.

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[quote name='Stumpy Jung Il' date='24 February 2010 - 10:48 AM' timestamp='1267030340' post='2201564']
Basically this. Im surprised its working as well as it is. You need one hell of a propaganda department to get people to actually believe that you are the victim after a preemptive strike.
[/quote]

Umm I don't see any TOP members complaining about the war, but I guess that doesn't matter. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to see FOK do this. Mainly because it was not necessary. Far from it actually. We are already down on almost all statistics by our attackers, yet 'friends' decide to declare war on us too. So, either FOK feigns their amiability towards us after all this time but really dislikes us, or MK pressured them into this and they decided to further secure themselves on the winning side to protect themselves in the future. The former puts FOK in a bad light, while the latter certainly puts MK in a bad light.

Edited by DogeWilliam
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[quote name='neneko' date='24 February 2010 - 09:32 AM' timestamp='1267022188' post='2201421']
Our friends are in this in our defense. As I said the fact that you're losing doesn't change this. I have to say I fail to see what point you're trying to get at. You attacked us. Our friends come in our defense. The whole thing seems to be pretty simple to me.
[/quote]

Except Umbrella and FOK did not declare til a month after the original DoW. Just be honest. This is a concerted effort at retribution.

retribution =/= defense

Elawyers and treaties give C&G the right to call on allies for what could technically be called defense. No doubt about it. But in the reality of the situation, C&G wants TOP to pay (literally). FOK and Umbrella are instruments of C&G's aggressive intent - an intent very different than the victim posture that MK is pushing.

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@DogeWilliam
After seeing them activate NpO, with Polar in 700ish wars and Grub's reputation already tarnished(declaring on TOP made it much worse imo), I'd go with your latter of theories. Apparently, come hell or high water they mean to do you in. :P

Edited by Wabooz
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[quote name='watchman' date='24 February 2010 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1267031608' post='2201609']
Except Umbrella and FOK did not declare til a month after the original DoW. Just be honest. This is a concerted effort at retribution.

retribution =/= defense

Elawyers and treaties give C&G the right to call on allies for what could technically be called defense. No doubt about it. But in the reality of the situation, C&G wants TOP to pay (literally). FOK and Umbrella are instruments of C&G's aggressive intent - an intent very different than the victim posture that MK is pushing.
[/quote]

Or FOK was focusing on other theatres of war. And im sure if C&G preemptivly attacked you, you would want them to pay.

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[quote name='king cjc' date='24 February 2010 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1267031849' post='2201616']
And im sure if C&G preemptivly attacked you, you would want them to pay.
[/quote]

well you can't have your cake and eat it, too. Are you pushing for reps or defending allies?

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All i'm hearing is "we've invested so much time into you, bought so much tech from you just so you wouldn't activate your treaties when we go pre-emptive on your MDP partner". What a load of crap. If you actually gave a !@#$ about anyone but yourselves in this war it would have shown. But instead of going to Umbrella and FOK - your long standing "friends" to tell them about it you got to NpO to make sure they won't defend us.

p.s. props for some people there still having some common sense - see ajaxpenny.


[quote name='chefjoe' date='24 February 2010 - 02:47 AM' timestamp='1266972678' post='2200144']
Ive been trying to party with you guys for years ;) Only problem is we seem to allways be waving at each other from across the dance floor :P

Maybe we can meet at the bar up front and have a beer sometime :D
[/quote]

haha, this brought back some pleasant memories that put a :smug: on my face


As for FOK - thank you and i wish this never happened now more than ever simply because i've always seen you as my favourite alliance outside my own and in no way would i have ever wished we bring you any discomfort as an ally.

Edited by uaciaut
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[quote name='joracy' date='24 February 2010 - 12:45 AM' timestamp='1266994111' post='2200929']
The whole MHA thing that went on a few pages back?
[/quote]

As one of the major proponents of trying to keep MHA neutral or bringing them to our side, there was a lot that hasn't been aired here. For respect of my past Harmlin claims I won't be going into it but of course if you do care to discuss it further, feel free to find me on IRC. Just because one party says something and another party says something doesn't make any of it true (as I think we can all agree upon after this war amiright?).

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[quote name='DogeWilliam' date='24 February 2010 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1267031402' post='2201604']
Umm I don't see any TOP members complaining about the war, but I guess that doesn't matter. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to see FOK do this. Mainly because it was not necessary. Far from it actually. We are already down on almost all statistics by our attackers, yet 'friends' decide to declare war on us too. So, either FOK feigns their amiability towards us after all this time but really dislikes us, or MK pressured them into this and they decided to further secure themselves on the winning side to protect themselves in the future. The former puts FOK in a bad light, while the latter certainly puts MK in a bad light.
[/quote]


or maybe TOP is not who they portrayed themselves to be to FOK before all this.... ;)

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[quote name='hymli' date='24 February 2010 - 12:04 PM' timestamp='1267031275' post='2201602']
Read all the post related to the one you replied to, and you'll see that it has nothing to do with what you are talking about. So no, there's not the deal.
[/quote]

My statement there refers to the whole situation. So I ask you to read everything that had been stated before I made that statement and you will realize that the statement I am currently replying to in this post makes no sense and makes you come across as a fool.

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[quote name='king cjc' date='24 February 2010 - 11:13 AM' timestamp='1267031849' post='2201616']
Or FOK was focusing on other theatres of war. And im sure if C&G preemptivly attacked you, you would want them to pay.
[/quote]

Actually I'd still push for white peace in that arena as well for all parties involved. Personally I think preemptive attacks are at the very least, some of the most honest attacks and definitely make the game more interesting. Better then bogus CB's in my mind see: GPA war, NoCB war, 1V/GATO war, various other wars (and lets not this degrade into arguments of well you're apart of that war or this war so how can you say you think the CB is bogus! no u!)

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[quote name='Derwood1' date='24 February 2010 - 11:44 AM' timestamp='1267033653' post='2201660']
or maybe TOP is not who they portrayed themselves to be to FOK before all this.... ;)
[/quote]

Oh come on now, we've always been arrogant stat collectors with a bit of paranoia. That doesn't change if you're our ally, at war with us, or completely in zero contact with us.

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[quote name='AirMe' date='24 February 2010 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1267029387' post='2201539']
You know what, here is the deal. You can all complain about bawwwwww C&G won't stop the war bawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, however if you can't do the time don't commit the crime. TOP attacked thinking they had an advantage, you guys now realize you don't and you want to get out of it and you are trying your hardest to pin the blame on C&G. If you don't want a protracted war, don't attack the people that will fight until there is nothing left to fight with to defend their homeland.

Again Bob, I am going to accuse you of being intentionally obtuse.
[/quote]


It has nothing to do with an advantage or lack of advantage Airme. Merely the scope of the war has changed as has the onset (our initial reason for coming in, which was to support polaris) is no longer there. I can guarantee you that TOP has zero issue with fighting an eternal war, but that is not a war anyone will like (this is not me blustering, this is the fact that TOPocolypse is terrible for the evolution of planet Bob and ultimately will push more and more people away). I for one am a proponent of a good, fun time here for all. Not misery and animosity.

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[quote name='Bob Janova' date='24 February 2010 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1267025010' post='2201457']
No, because TOP don't have crushing you as an objective. Even defeating you at this point looks extremely unlikely, since you've piled so many alliances onto them. But if TOP ever had any pre-war objectives to knock some strength off C&G, I'm sure they are already accomplished by now. TOP's objectives were mostly based on ensuring that a coalition which now doesn't exist won a war which has now switched focus, and their interests are therefore in ending the war (as can be seen by the guarantee of a termless peace from their side).
[/quote]
You seem to forget that top made it clear in their DoW that defeating CnG was not related to the ongoing conflict. Funny how that fact doesn't seem to stick with you.


[quote name='Bob Janova' date='24 February 2010 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1267025010' post='2201457']
Of course it is. Yanking them firmly out of Citadel power sphere and making sure that you leave tainted relations means that you have a meatshield for C&G when you need it. That doesn't mean it has any class. You know what else would relieve the damage you are taking? That's right, peace!
[/quote]
By citadel I assume you mean the TOP power sphere since citadel is gone. If TOP really didn't want to step on any toes attacking cng for being a possible threat was probably a pretty bad idea seeing as we have direct ties to both umbrella and FOK. You cna try to shift the blame all you want but we didn't start this war and you know it.



edit:
[quote name='LiquidMercury' date='24 February 2010 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1267034236' post='2201679']
It has nothing to do with an advantage or lack of advantage Airme. Merely the scope of the war has changed as has the onset (our initial reason for coming in, which was to support polaris) is no longer there.
[/quote]
Half of your initial reason to start this war have changed. You attempts to e-lawyer your way out of the second half is truly pathetic. TOP hasn't surprised me alot this war. I knew what you were from the start. What surprised me though was to see that you don't even have the backbone to stand for your own actions. Having a backbone was one of the few positive things I thought TOP had. At this point it's not even amusing it's just sad to see you crawl around trying to shift the blame over to anyone in the vicinity.

Edited by neneko
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[quote name='LiquidMercury' date='24 February 2010 - 12:53 PM' timestamp='1267034236' post='2201679']
It has nothing to do with an advantage or lack of advantage Airme. Merely the scope of the war has changed as has the onset (our initial reason for coming in, which was to support polaris) is no longer there. I can guarantee you that TOP has zero issue with fighting an eternal war, but that is not a war anyone will like (this is not me blustering, this is the fact that TOPocolypse is terrible for the evolution of planet Bob and ultimately will push more and more people away). I for one am a proponent of a good, fun time here for all. Not misery and animosity.
[/quote]

I disagree with the assessment that this will drive people away. The world will hang around 25k - 26k occupants until it is taken down. The world doesn't revolve around any one alliance. Especially not TOP. Inflated Self Importance is not a becoming trait....take if from someone who sometimes thinks he is more important that he actually is.

The only thing that would drive people away in droves is if the NPO got back to the top and started the same crap they were pulling for the 3 years leading up to the Karma war. In fact that is the only long term ill effect of this war, it puts them closer to that goal.

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[quote name='AirMe' date='24 February 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1267033679' post='2201661']
My statement there refers to the whole situation. So I ask you to read everything that had been stated before I made that statement and you will realize that the statement I am currently replying to in this post makes no sense and makes you come across as a fool.
[/quote]
Then don't quote a specific post and afterwards claim it was a statement concerning the situation as a whole. Because that makes [b]you[/b] come across as a fool.

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[quote name='neneko' date='24 February 2010 - 11:55 AM' timestamp='1267034369' post='2201686']
You seem to forget that top made it clear in their DoW that defeating CnG was not related to the ongoing conflict. Funny how that fact doesn't seem to stick with you.



By citadel I assume you mean the TOP power sphere since citadel is gone. If TOP really didn't want to step on any toes attacking cng for being a possible threat was probably a pretty bad idea seeing as we have direct ties to both umbrella and FOK. You cna try to shift the blame all you want but we didn't start this war and you know it.
[/quote]

Neneko, you say the same thing over and over again. I'm going to lay things out clear here. We went in to support Polaris, was getting to take on CnG in the minds of many who saw you as a threat, yes. Absolutely. Did it come into my mind when thinking about a pre-emptive attack. No. I leave the political hooplah at the door generally and run the numbers first. Mistake? Yes. Did WE start the war? Kind of. The war with you all? Yes absolutely. THE WAR though? Nah. This is absolutely in my mind part of the original context of supporting polar in a moral crusade. I mean moral grandstanding (lets face it TOP is guilty of it as are others). I do not believe anyone is denying that we started a war with CnG. I for one am not shifting blame what so ever to you all. I'm letting you know the context of our entrance has changed (polaris kind of flipped sides and all ya know) and thus our original reason to enter, is no longer there. If we truly did want to just come and take a chunk out of CnG (which yes, some people probably did) a protracted war would serve us better then white peace right now. The reason for that is that while many of us are close to ZI and just simply turtling, you all have infra to lose and air/navy to rebuy which isn't a cost for some of us. The war is exponentially cheaper while turtling then fighting all out. We don't have any desire to see you all destroyed and wiped from the face of the planet, and I hope that feeling would be mutual for the implications that come about from that (see pre-Karma). As I've said, yes we started the war with CnG as part of a larger war on-going. The larger war on-going has ceased to exist through multiple polarity changes of various alliances. I for one personally take the blame for the preemptive strike so if you're looking to parse out blame, point your fingers right here. Hell, if you're looking to seek restitution for it even if this would all end in global peace right now I'd send out all my tech (I still have 18.5k or so) as showing that I take the blame. Bad idea? Yes. Fun? Undoubtedly. I for one continue to o/ MK for their ability to war and shal continue to meet you all (well not MK since you all stopped putting people on me because go figure, it is costly fighting me taking nukes while doing minimal damage to me outside of blowing my infra down enough that I have to buy back up to 1k and doesn't make sense to have people on me in terms of a cost/benefit analysis) on the battle field, eternally if needs be but with honor.

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[quote name='AirMe' date='24 February 2010 - 11:58 AM' timestamp='1267034495' post='2201694']
I disagree with the assessment that this will drive people away. The world will hang around 25k - 26k occupants until it is taken down. The world doesn't revolve around any one alliance. Especially not TOP. Inflated Self Importance is not a becoming trait....take if from someone who sometimes thinks he is more important that he actually is.

The only thing that would drive people away in droves is if the NPO got back to the top and started the same crap they were pulling for the 3 years leading up to the Karma war. In fact that is the only long term ill effect of this war, it puts them closer to that goal.
[/quote]


I agree that it doesn't revolve around any one alliance, but one alliance of our size and capability of waging eternal war in the lower-tiers/mid-tiers can make it very tiresome for new players that are trying to get into the game and continuously being beat down by people with superior wonders/improvements/tech. Add other various elements of deterrence and you get people getting fed up (on both sides) that will possibly leave. And yes it is sad that NPO will be able to be back at #1 after all this and released from terms (let's face it MHA/Sparta won't hang on to it due to inferior nation building and the fact that NPO has about 10 score or so of nukes, soldiers and air to buy back). As you said the world doesn't revolve around one alliance, but one alliance can effect the landscape of the world both politically and militarily. NPO themselves are the prime example for that.

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[quote name='LiquidMercury' date='24 February 2010 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1267035420' post='2201721']
And yes it is sad that NPO will be able to be back at #1 after all this
[/quote]
Suck it. :smug:

Edited by Branimir
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[quote name='hymli' date='24 February 2010 - 01:06 PM' timestamp='1267034994' post='2201712']
Then don't quote a specific post and afterwards claim it was a statement concerning the situation as a whole. Because that makes [b]you[/b] come across as a fool.
[/quote]

Not really but thanks for the attempt.

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[quote name='LiquidMercury' date='24 February 2010 - 01:13 PM' timestamp='1267035420' post='2201721']
I agree that it doesn't revolve around any one alliance, but one alliance of our size and capability of waging eternal war in the lower-tiers/mid-tiers can make it very tiresome for new players that are trying to get into the game and continuously being beat down by people with superior wonders/improvements/tech. Add other various elements of deterrence and you get people getting fed up (on both sides) that will possibly leave. And yes it is sad that NPO will be able to be back at #1 after all this and released from terms (let's face it MHA/Sparta won't hang on to it due to inferior nation building and the fact that NPO has about 10 score or so of nukes, soldiers and air to buy back). As you said the world doesn't revolve around one alliance, but one alliance can effect the landscape of the world both politically and militarily. NPO themselves are the prime example for that.
[/quote]

So now you guys are saying that you will ruin it for everyone else if you don't get what you want? The world survived VietFAN. I suspect it will survive this.

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