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FOK Declaration of War


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[quote name='Steve Buscemi' date='23 February 2010 - 10:45 PM' timestamp='1266997724' post='2201107']
Oh I saw what you thought were attempts to fix Citadel. Maybe if you guys finally get over yourselves you'll see where you went wrong. But that list is quite long so might want to get some coffee or something.

As to FOK cancelling on TOP. We all know what went on that created that situation, so don't act stupid.
[/quote]

Please don't be a steve...O wai!

I simply cannot get over myself, and honestly, if most people knew our collective histories, I am certain they would agree. ;)

EDIT:

This is a personal reference between steve and myself, not TOP and Ifok.

Also, Erikz, maybe it is time for you to put pressure on your .gov. If you aren't in the majority, then it really doesn't matter.

Edited by Chalaskan
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[quote name='Dilber' date='24 February 2010 - 08:13 AM' timestamp='1266995792' post='2201040']
I actually have been expecting this for quite some time. It's been really clear where most of FOK's friends were, and expecting them to go against them is dumb as hell.

And in regards to the "FOK never wronging me", I guess NPO never helped FOK out of the UJW, helped bring them onto the big-stage via Q, had them cancel on us under a week before Karma, and then have them declare on us. :)
[/quote]

We even talked to TOP in their Q&A about the two sides that were forming, that was quite clear for anyone to see.

What you seem to be forgetting is that both the NPO and TOP started a war after our cancellation. And both times you knew exactly on which side FOK would be. Now I see the same from you as what FOK's been getting from a lot of TOP-members, 'how can you do this? we helped you 3 years ago!'. First of all, you can't expect people to put up with anything you pull, just because you helped them a long time ago. And second, it's not like we didn't help NPO or TOP. NPO's place as the number one alliance was better secured with FOK in Q and TOP had their own little tech farm when FOK started.

Anyway, both attacking OV and attacking C&G weren't the smartest moves in the history of CN and you can't blame FOK helping out their treaty partners who were on the other side both times.

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[quote name='MikeTheFirst' date='24 February 2010 - 05:52 AM' timestamp='1267008932' post='2201231']
We even talked to TOP in their Q&A about the two sides that were forming, that was quite clear for anyone to see.

What you seem to be forgetting is that both the NPO and TOP started a war after our cancellation. And both times you knew exactly on which side FOK would be. Now I see the same from you as what FOK's been getting from a lot of TOP-members, 'how can you do this? we helped you 3 years ago!'. First of all, you can't expect people to put up with anything you pull, just because you helped them a long time ago. And second, it's not like we didn't help NPO or TOP. NPO's place as the number one alliance was better secured with FOK in Q and TOP had their own little tech farm when FOK started.

Anyway, both attacking OV and attacking C&G weren't the smartest moves in the history of CN and you can't blame FOK helping out their treaty partners who were on the other side both times.
[/quote]


Oh, I fully understand FOK was on the other side. It's more along the lines of attacking a former treaty partner very shortly after canceling the treaty. It's not like either NPO or TOP were not being dogpiled already. It's more of an insult to injury thing. FOK technically did nothing wrong. It doesn't make it any easier from the other side.

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[quote name='Dilber' date='24 February 2010 - 11:59 AM' timestamp='1267009350' post='2201234']
Oh, I fully understand FOK was on the other side. It's more along the lines of attacking a former treaty partner very shortly after canceling the treaty. It's not like either NPO or TOP were not being dogpiled already. It's more of an insult to injury thing. FOK technically did nothing wrong. It doesn't make it any easier from the other side.
[/quote]

That it's shortly after cancelling a treaty, is in both cases purely a coincidence. If you hadn't attacked OV and TOP hadn't pre-emptively attacked MK, we wouldn't be in this situation. Sure, we might have still ended up on different sides in another war, but not this soon. I fully understand that it's still hard to swallow when a former treaty partner is attacking you, but I think the party under attack should realize that they're (at least for a large part) the ones to blame.

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[quote name='hymli' date='24 February 2010 - 09:40 AM' timestamp='1267004635' post='2201190']
If you want this to be over, the offer of peace is still open.

I guess problem is that C&G doesn't want this to be over, and they are using you to ensure it drags on.
[/quote]
I don't normally agree with TSO members, but this is spot on. It is C&G that's keeping the war going, so piling extra pain on TOP isn't going to make it be over any sooner – in fact by diluting the damage C&G take you make it take longer before they realise they're being stupid and should be talking peace.

You, like many other alliances, are being used by C&G.

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[quote name='Bob Janova' date='24 February 2010 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1267015227' post='2201300']
I don't normally agree with TSO members, but this is spot on. It is C&G that's keeping the war going, so piling extra pain on TOP isn't going to make it be over any sooner – in fact by diluting the damage C&G take you make it take longer before they realise they're being stupid and should be talking peace.

You, like many other alliances, are being used by C&G.
[/quote]

Bob,

Give me reasons why we should peace out now? How on earth are we using our allies? Asking them to come to our aid? Thats considered been used by us?

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Eh. I just can't help thinking of that song i used to like so long ago..

[quote][center]
Would you mind if I hurt you?
Understand that I need to
Wish that I had other choices
than to harm the one I love

What have you done now?!

I know I'd better stop trying
You know that there's no denying
I won't show mercy on you now
I know, should stop believing
I know, there's no retrieving
It's over now, what have you done?

What have you done now?!

I, I've been waiting for someone like you
But now you are slipping away... oh
Why, why does fate make us suffer?
There's a curse between us, between me and you

What have you done?! What have you done?!
What have you done?! What have you done?!
What have you done now?!
What have you done?! What have you done?!
What have you done?! What have you done?!
What have you done now?!

Would you mind if I killed you?
Would you mind if I tried to?
'cause you have turned into my worst enemy
You carry hate that I don't feel
It's over now
What have you done?

What have you done now?!

I, I've been waiting for someone like you
But now you are slipping away... oh
What have you done now?!
Why, why does fate make us suffer?
There's a curse between us, between me and you

What have you done?! What have you done?!
What have you done?! What have you done?!
What have you done now?!
What have you done?! What have you done?!
What have you done?! What have you done?!
What have you done now?!
What have you done now, what have you done?...

I will not fall, won't let it go
We will be free when it ends

I, I've been waiting for someone like you
But now you are slipping away... oh
What have you done now?!
Why, why does fate make us suffer?
There's a curse between us, between me and you

I, I've been waiting for someone like you
But now you are slipping away... oh
What have you done now?!
Why, why does fate make us suffer
There's a curse between us, between me and you[/center]
[/quote]

Edit1: It's"what have you done?" by within temptation.
Edit2: They're dutch (the band). How fitting.

Edited by sodom gomorrah
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[quote name='Bob Janova' date='24 February 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1267015227' post='2201300']
I don't normally agree with TSO members, but this is spot on. It is C&G that's keeping the war going, so piling extra pain on TOP isn't going to make it be over any sooner – in fact by diluting the damage C&G take you make it take longer before they realise they're being stupid and should be talking peace.

You, like many other alliances, are being used by C&G.
[/quote]
Yes we are the puppetmasters. The P in our MDPs, MDoAPs and Protectorates stands for puppeteering. I mean people defending us when we get attacked clearly proves this beyond all doubt.

I don't really get the rest of your rambling there. I assume you base it on our stubborn refusal to accept white peace. We're evil like that. It's how we roll.

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[quote name='Mussolandia' date='24 February 2010 - 07:49 AM' timestamp='1266990807' post='2200686']
There is definitely a pattern. It is the second time FOK declares on a former ally a short while after the end of obligations.
[/quote]

Funny how you leave out that each time, the former ally aggressively attacked one of FOK's allies.

If there is a pattern, it's a pattern of FOK honoring their treaties, even when the choice is a tough one.

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[quote]Give me reasons why we should peace out now? How on earth are we using our allies? Asking them to come to our aid? Thats considered been used by us?[/quote]
Because apparently you're taking so much damage that you need the help, because you're now the ones who are pressing the war and refusing to negotiate, and because it's easier to rebuild when you've only lost half your infra.

And yes, when peace is readily available and you 'require' assistance from allies and force them to attack an alliance with whom they had good relations, you are using them to further your own agenda (revenge and splitting TOP from all its friends). FOK are hardly needed to 'defend' you when you can walk away from the fight at any time. Attacking TOP is not in FOK's interests, it does not enhance MK's security except through your own choice to keep the war going and not discuss peace, and it is a clearly political move to drag them to your side (SG) in future by spoiling their relations with other power clusters (just as it is with NpO).

TOP have stated that they are happy to negotiate so the 'white peace' thing is a straw man at this point, although if you're really taking that much of a beating it is still a better option than keeping the war going. Whatever you manage to extort will not cover one day's damages, so every day you keep the fight going worsens C&G's position in the future.

Neneko, I believe this addresses your post too.

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[quote name='Bob Janova' date='24 February 2010 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1267017695' post='2201337']
Because apparently you're taking so much damage that you need the help, because you're now the ones who are pressing the war and refusing to negotiate, and because it's easier to rebuild when you've only lost half your infra.

And yes, when peace is readily available and you 'require' assistance from allies and force them to attack an alliance with whom they had good relations, you are using them to further your own agenda (revenge and splitting TOP from all its friends). FOK are hardly needed to 'defend' you when you can walk away from the fight at any time. Attacking TOP is not in FOK's interests, it does not enhance MK's security except through your own choice to keep the war going and not discuss peace, and it is a clearly political move to drag them to your side (SG) in future by spoiling their relations with other power clusters (just as it is with NpO).

TOP have stated that they are happy to negotiate so the 'white peace' thing is a straw man at this point, although if you're really taking that much of a beating it is still a better option than keeping the war going. Whatever you manage to extort will not cover one day's damages, so every day you keep the fight going worsens C&G's position in the future.

Neneko, I believe this addresses your post too.
[/quote]
Our current offer from TOP is white peace.

FOK helping us out here is a huge relief for us. You may not have noticed but we're taking quite alot of damage still and will continue to do so. Actually I know you know this since you use this when it's beneficial for your argument and handily forget it when it's not.

The bottom line of this is that TOP is not winning this war they started and they do not get to choose when or how it ends. You can cry all you want but that's a fact. Since as you said we're taking more damage than we can get reparations for by staying in the war keeping the war going should be in TOPs best interest to. They are in this to defeat cng after all.

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You know it baffles me that TOP is surprised at all with this DOW. I remember all the snide remarks and general hate thrown at Grämlins on the Citadel boards back during Karma, after Grämlins hit IRON. TOP certainly has the sovereign right to move in its best interest but please stop the rhetoric that FOK is ebil for attacking you in Defense of their Treaty Partner. You know full well the consequences of attacking a partner of a partner but yet you did it anyway so you should not be surprised in the least.

As far as the idea that FOK is piling on: MK and company are conducting their Defense in a smart way; TOP, IRON and company need a hat re-sizing, clearly.

edit: Oh yeah, Neneko have you hooked up the strings to me yet? :D

Edited by Derwood1
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[quote name='hymli' date='24 February 2010 - 02:58 PM' timestamp='1267020149' post='2201384']
If defense was the issue, then peace would be the best course, don't you think?
[/quote]
Let me think about it. Done. No.

Guess what? CnG have friends. Attacking cng make said friends want to hurt you. Enjoy.

e:
[quote name='Derwood1' date='24 February 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1267019812' post='2201376']
Oh yeah, Neneko have you hooked up the strings to me yet? :D
[/quote]
Of course. Don't you remember how you ended up in PC to begin with? It's all part of Archons divine plan.

Edited by neneko
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[quote name='hymli' date='24 February 2010 - 01:58 PM' timestamp='1267020149' post='2201384']
If defense was the issue, then peace would be the best course, don't you think?
[/quote]

The issue isnt defense any more, its calcualted losses. As much as I detest reading the same speech from janova over and over (and wasting his personal capital in the process), part of what he is saying is true. You boys (TOP side) are now the defender without the technicality of declerations. Its been pretty much established by LM that the preemption was a mistake based on miscalculations of what Polar would do and TOP and co are paying for it.

However this dosent mean CnG should accept peace on anything but thier own terms, hopefully those terms will be something in the middle of harsh and white peace. Good luck FOK this Gramlin loves you guys

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[quote name='Thorgrum' date='24 February 2010 - 09:08 AM' timestamp='1267020728' post='2201398']
The issue isnt defense any more, its calcualted losses. As much as I detest reading the same speech from janova over and over (and wasting his personal capital in the process), part of what he is saying is true. You boys (TOP side) are now the defender without the technicality of declerations. Its been pretty much established by LM that the preemption was a mistake based on miscalculations of what Polar would do and TOP and co are paying for it.

However this dosent mean CnG should accept peace on anything but thier own terms, hopefully those terms will be something in the middle of harsh and white peace. Good luck FOK this Gramlin loves you guys
[/quote]

hear hear
cheers FOK!

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[quote name='neneko' date='24 February 2010 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1267020376' post='2201390']
Let me think about it. Done. No.

Guess what? CnG have friends. Attacking cng make said friends want to hurt you. Enjoy.

e:

Of course. Don't you remember how you ended up in PC to begin with? It's all part of Archons divine plan.
[/quote]

That was my whole point, defense isn't the issue anymore. ;)

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[quote name='Dilber' date='24 February 2010 - 05:59 AM' timestamp='1267009350' post='2201234']
Oh, I fully understand FOK was on the other side. It's more along the lines of attacking a former treaty partner very shortly after canceling the treaty.
[/quote]
Doitzel: "Knock knock."

Dilber: "Who's there?"

Doitzel: "May 2007."

Dilber: "Oh crap."

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[quote name='hymli' date='24 February 2010 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1267021370' post='2201405']
That was my whole point, defense isn't the issue anymore. ;)
[/quote]
Our friends are in this in our defense. As I said the fact that you're losing doesn't change this. I have to say I fail to see what point you're trying to get at. You attacked us. Our friends come in our defense. The whole thing seems to be pretty simple to me.

Edited by neneko
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[quote]You know it baffles me that TOP is surprised at all with this DOW. I remember all the snide remarks and general hate thrown at Grämlins on the Citadel boards back during Karma, after Grämlins hit IRON.[/quote]
And yet ... and yet, TOP [i]did not declare war on Grämlins[/i]. Instead, they encouraged Grämlins and IRON to come together, to talk and to come to a peaceful resolution as soon as possible in order to minimise the damage sustained by [i]both[/i] of their friends.

[quote]Our current offer from TOP is white peace.[/quote]
Then make a counter offer, start negotiating. That's how peace agreements work. I'm sure you have experienced them before over in MK ...

[quote]Since as you said we're taking more damage than we can get reparations for by staying in the war keeping the war going should be in TOPs best interest to.[/quote]
No, because TOP don't have crushing you as an objective. Even defeating you at this point looks extremely unlikely, since you've piled so many alliances onto them. But if TOP ever had any pre-war objectives to knock some strength off C&G, I'm sure they are already accomplished by now. TOP's objectives were mostly based on ensuring that a coalition which now doesn't exist won a war which has now switched focus, and their interests are therefore in ending the war (as can be seen by the guarantee of a termless peace from their side).

[quote]FOK helping us out here is a huge relief for us[/quote]
Of course it is. Yanking them firmly out of Citadel power sphere and making sure that you leave tainted relations means that you have a meatshield for C&G when you need it. That doesn't mean it has any class. You know what else would relieve the damage you are taking? That's right, peace!

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[quote name='Bob Janova' date='24 February 2010 - 07:36 AM' timestamp='1267015227' post='2201300']
I don't normally agree with TSO members, but this is spot on. It is C&G that's keeping the war going, so piling extra pain on TOP isn't going to make it be over any sooner – in fact by diluting the damage C&G take you make it take longer before they realise they're being stupid and should be talking peace.

You, like many other alliances, are being used by C&G.
[/quote]

You know what, here is the deal. You can all complain about bawwwwww C&G won't stop the war bawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, however if you can't do the time don't commit the crime. TOP attacked thinking they had an advantage, you guys now realize you don't and you want to get out of it and you are trying your hardest to pin the blame on C&G. If you don't want a protracted war, don't attack the people that will fight until there is nothing left to fight with to defend their homeland.

Again Bob, I am going to accuse you of being intentionally obtuse.

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[quote name='Bob Janova' date='24 February 2010 - 10:20 AM' timestamp='1267025010' post='2201457']
And yet ... and yet, TOP [i]did not declare war on Grämlins[/i]. Instead, they encouraged Grämlins and IRON to come together, to talk and to come to a peaceful resolution as soon as possible in order to minimise the damage sustained by [i]both[/i] of their friends.[/quote]

My point was TOP attacked MK with zero regard to how FOK might feel, sorry I was not clear enough. :ehm:

Edited by Derwood1
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