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[quote name='Walking_Dead' date='14 February 2010 - 02:19 AM' timestamp='1266124777' post='2180277']
I don't understand the issue here. There is a possibility that the last screen shot wasn't authentic. If that's the case- then silly us for thinking it was. That doesn't change the fact that the initial shots of an altered ip address being used to get GLOF to expel a well liked member is at the heart of this issue. Everything else is just icing on the cake- the screen shots provided to GLOF by the leader of the 57th is where the problem lies, and until that's explained I don't think GLOF will be lining up to say we were wrong.
[/quote]

I fully back my leaders and believe the original ss damning Iyeman to be faked also...........I hold no malice toward the 57th but their leader, if he truly did this, is despicable and I call for the 57th to coup him and pound him to dust for causing this to his own alliance.........and most of you who have been flaming in this post can kiss my $@!. everyone of you would be flipping out if this happened to a member of your alliance. so stfu and go back under your bridge.

thank you,
CtG

ps if you dont like it ............ do something about it........... lol
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=200890

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Judging by your attitude displayed thus far, I would love to. Sadly I am in no position to be declaring wars as I have reached my limit and also have been hit by nuclear weapons lately.

You act like everyone disputing this has a grudge against your alliane or is intellectually incapable of comprehending the evidence. In fact you are so far off of the truth it isn't funny. Most people who have seen the "evidence" has doubts as to its authenticity, I for one, fine multiple parts of it highly lacking. We are not here to flame at all, we are bringing up completely valid points. Perhaps you have reacted so strongly because you are afraid you truly were in the wrong?

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[quote name='Penedono' date='14 February 2010 - 03:43 AM' timestamp='1266119001' post='2180163']

And yes, as I have already conceded, ANY image CAN be a fake! Someone may have even hacked the OWF and is "Penedono" isn't even the one posting this right now! None of you could be who you say you are - in any of your forums!

Where do we draw the line, and simply judge things the best we can with the experience we have?
[/quote]

You draw the line when there are no other possible courses of action you can take in order to ascertain whether something is true or false, especially when we're talking about a long time ally. Going to the 57th would have given you the opportunity to verify whether the images are real or fake or at the very least give you a better idea. If after all that you still felt they were guilty and declared war, then at least you could have said you did a little more to get to the truth.

Anyway, glad to see a ceasefire while that takes place.

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KoD, I can assure you that our leadership tried manifold to reach the 57th for that.
That finally happened, and we are sorting out what really went on.

I also would like to remember to everyone reading this thread that the different perceptions displayed by the multitude of the Lodge brothers are to be ascribed only to their personal point of view, and as such, do not reflect in any way an "official" statement or position of the Lodge, as they are to be expressed only by our government members or specific officers (like myself), when so delegated.

And we love Charles because he is so shy and reserved. ^_^

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[quote name='Charles the Great' date='14 February 2010 - 11:18 AM' timestamp='1266146302' post='2180690']
ps if you dont like it ............ do something about it........... lol
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=200890
[/quote]
You think you have carte blanche to be so rude because you are out of range of 99% of nations and it is unlikely that there will be any consequences; I would just love to show you that you are wrong. Unfortunately the closest I can get to 'doing something about it' would be to attack some of your alliance mates who are in range (since damaging them is the closest I can conceivably get to damaging you), making them pay for the impolite and arrogant nature that you have so readily displayed here.

what say you?............. lol

Edited by Aimee Mann
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[quote name='Charles the Great' date='14 February 2010 - 06:18 AM' timestamp='1266146302' post='2180690']
I fully back my leaders and believe the original ss damning Iyeman to be faked also...........I hold no malice toward the 57th but their leader, if he truly did this, is despicable and I call for the 57th to coup him and pound him to dust for causing this to his own alliance.........and most of you who have been flaming in this post can kiss my $@!. everyone of you would be flipping out if this happened to a member of your alliance. so stfu and go back under your bridge.

thank you,
CtG

ps if you dont like it ............ do something about it........... lol
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=200890
[/quote]

At this point it is you that should be looking at your leadership and its massive failures. You declared war on your allies. War on your fricking allies, without even bothering to investigate if this pathetic evidence was true. You should be the one flipping out when your alliance attacked your own allies. If you at least had put a little work into it GLOF could have avoided this massive public failing. The OPs subject holds true, With friends like these, and you know right now everyone of your allies is looking at GLOF and asking thinking that same thing.

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[quote name='Charles the Great' date='14 February 2010 - 11:18 AM' timestamp='1266146302' post='2180690']
ps if you dont like it ............ do something about it........... lol
[/quote]
GLOF just lost any remaining tendrils of respect I had for them. If the only argument you can make is to dare people to stand-up to you then you're as good as admitting your cause is, at the very least, highly dubious in it's justifiability.

Off the basis that I could prove that a large portion of your CB is a fake in under a half-hour of checking, I think the Lodge should take it's time in deciding what it wants to achieve here. Also I'm pleased to hear about a cease-fire which will hopefully give the Lodge that time.

edit: clarity

Edited by Ragnor
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[quote name='The Big Bad' date='14 February 2010 - 09:45 AM' timestamp='1266158756' post='2180771']
The OPs subject holds true, With friends like these, and you know right now everyone of your allies is looking at GLOF and asking thinking that same thing.
[/quote]

This is simply not true. Many of GLoF's allies were around whilst they made many failed attempts to contact 57th. I can honestly say that if we were in their position that I doubt we would have done anything differently and I suspect the same holds true for most of the dissenters in this thread. Having said that, I do hope that this info turns out to be false, I was really starting to like those 57th guys.

Edited by nosoup4you
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[quote name='Charles the Great' date='14 February 2010 - 06:18 AM' timestamp='1266146302' post='2180690']
I fully back my leaders and believe the original ss damning Iyeman to be faked also...........I hold no malice toward the 57th but their leader, if he truly did this, is despicable and I call for the 57th to coup him and pound him to dust for causing this to his own alliance.........and most of you who have been flaming in this post can kiss my $@!. everyone of you would be flipping out if this happened to a member of your alliance. so stfu and go back under your bridge.

thank you,
CtG

ps if you dont like it ............ do something about it........... lol
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=200890
[/quote]

/me shakes his head.

Come on man, that's no way to represent yourself or your alliance. You should be ashamed. For someone who preaches about the sorts of bullies raiders are, you're not particularly proving yourself to be any better.

Even if this is all proven true and GLOF's completely right about all of this, I don't personally think what's being shown here merits a swift strike at update. I inherently trust GLOF to make good, rational decisions, but unless there's something yall haven't shown here(the identity of the 57th member handing off that screenie to yall would probably add some perspective to this), this is the sort of thing that better befits a bitter, public, and acrimonious treaty cancellation rather than turning them into a parking lot.

I don't really know what to think about this, on the one hand, the GLOF I know doesn't make rash moves, so this must have more merit than it appears, on the other; this is something I never would have done myself if presented with the same evidence even if I was feeling big about my britches.

I trust GLOF to either make it right here or have been right all along.

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[quote name='Ragnor' date='14 February 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1266160610' post='2180794']
GLOF just lost any remaining tendrils of respect I had for them. If the only argument you can make is to dare people to stand-up to you then you're as good as admitting your cause is, at the very least, highly dubious in it's justifiability.[/quote]

Exactly what I was telling two posts earlier... :rolleyes:

I congratulate with you for associating the official position of the Lodge to the personal opinions expressed by one of its members. With this kind of arguments in place, I am not astonished we are not coming to any kind of conclusions here. <_<

Also (and for real this time), thank you for your wishes about the cease-fire.
We think that it is a good first step towards a resolution of this mess, which is becoming increasingly like the OJ Simpson case.

Edited by obscurus
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I fully stand by the first part of my statement ........ the last part about doing something about it was totally toungue in cheek in reference to some recent remarks on this board........I really meant no disrespect to anyone was just being sarcastic.........anyway I still stand behind the decisions of my leaders and trust me if I didnt think the original ss with the ips was faked I would be raising hell within GLoF as that is actually the real job of a Warden (to ensure the gov acts honestly and with integrity). Once we get to the bottom of this I WILL be at the forefront of the crusade to punish those responsible. Also this semi appology and clarification is of my own doing I have no desire to cause damage to GLoF's good name and am sorry if the "do something about it" statement was taken incorrectly.

summary:
we are convinced the ss with the ip was faked anything else is not applicable as such someone must pay.

Thank you,

CtG

edit: clarification I guess I was just pissed off this morning to see a full wave of attacks after the cease fire was in place then a pm stating the attacker didnt look at the pm for cease fire first........guess I could have attacked back and claimed the same but that wouldnt have been honorable....not that I dont believe what happened but I dont have to like it.

Edited by Charles the Great
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[quote name='nosoup4you' date='14 February 2010 - 10:23 AM' timestamp='1266161006' post='2180799']
This is simply not true. Many of GLoF's allies were around whilst they made many failed attempts to contact 57th. I can honestly say that if we were in their position that I doubt we would have done anything differently and I suspect the same holds true for most of the dissenters in this thread. Having said that, I do hope that this info turns out to be false, I was really starting to like those 57th guys.
[/quote]

It is clear that even if they would not bother to wait and talk to their allies in 57th before they attacked them, they could have asked anyone who knew its leader. Because it is also very clear that anyone who knows him or whom has spoken with him knows that the screen shot is fake. How hard would that be to check? You say anyone would do they same? Are you kidding me. Even if a global war was not being fought no alliance with the least bit common sense or basic diplomatic skills would attack its own allies over a screen shot without exausting every effort to at least confirm it was true. And even if an alliance was so completely incompetent to fall for such a trick without investigation, you damn well don't just up and attack your allies over it. I don't know either of these alliances but, GLOF with its actions has shown itself to be an alliance without honor, diplomatic skills or even common sense.

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[quote name='The Big Bad' date='14 February 2010 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1266167330' post='2180871']
It is clear that even if they would not bother to wait and talk to their allies in 57th before they attacked them, they could have asked anyone who knew its leader. Because it is also very clear that anyone who knows him or whom has spoken with him knows that the screen shot is fake. How hard would that be to check? You say anyone would do they same? Are you kidding me. Even if a global war was not being fought no alliance with the least bit common sense or basic diplomatic skills would attack its own allies over a screen shot without exausting every effort to at least confirm it was true. And even if an alliance was so completely incompetent to fall for such a trick without investigation, you damn well don't just up and attack your allies over it. I don't know either of these alliances but, GLOF with its actions has shown itself to be an alliance without honor, diplomatic skills or even common sense.
[/quote]

I have asked around about Veneke and found out he does lie and twist words around all the time, even if this blows over I would be opposed to ever being allied with any alliance he is a part of ever agian. He obviously has his own agenda and that is fine but I dont want to be a part of it....... there are irc conversations I have seen that show him plotting to spy on enemies and allies alike................as for GLoF not having honor that statement from you is laughable at best. Also your opinion means less than nothing to me you are a has been in CN go away.

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[quote name='Charles the Great' date='14 February 2010 - 12:25 PM' timestamp='1266168318' post='2180882']
I have asked around about Veneke and found out he does lie and twist words around all the time, even if this blows over I would be opposed to ever being allied with any alliance he is a part of ever agian.
[/quote]

Welcome to politics. Fact of the matter is, 57th was your ally. You treated your ally like they were not even worth a damn to you, and it shows through the government and the membership. 57th deserved better than this, especially from someone they considered a friend.

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[quote name='Charles the Great' date='14 February 2010 - 03:39 PM' timestamp='1266161973' post='2180809']
I really meant no disrespect to anyone was just being sarcastic [...] Also this [...] appology and clarification is of my own doing I [...] am sorry[/quote]
Apology accepted.
[quote name='Charles the Great' date='14 February 2010 - 05:25 PM' timestamp='1266168318' post='2180882']
Also your opinion means less than nothing to me you are a has been in CN go away.
[/quote]
Better to be a has been than a never been, eh?

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[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='14 February 2010 - 09:53 AM' timestamp='1266170036' post='2180909']
Welcome to politics. Fact of the matter is, 57th was your ally. You treated your ally like they were not even worth a damn to you, and it shows through the government and the membership. 57th deserved better than this, especially from someone they considered a friend.
[/quote]
Geez, that sounds heinous! You'd think GLOF joined planning channels of both sides of the war and fed intel to one side while secretly telling the other side they were coming in the next update or something!

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[quote name='Charles the Great' date='14 February 2010 - 09:25 AM' timestamp='1266168318' post='2180882']
I have asked around about Veneke and found out he does lie and twist words around all the time, even if this blows over I would be opposed to ever being allied with any alliance he is a part of ever agian. He obviously has his own agenda and that is fine but I dont want to be a part of it....... there are irc conversations I have seen that show him plotting to spy on enemies and allies alike................as for GLoF not having honor that statement from you is laughable at best. Also your opinion means less than nothing to me you are a has been in CN go away.
[/quote]


lmao poor poor hamster.......or gerbil........whatever you are :lol1:

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[quote name='Charles the Great' date='14 February 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1266168318' post='2180882']
I have asked around about Veneke and found out he does lie and twist words around all the time, even if this blows over I would be opposed to ever being allied with any alliance he is a part of ever agian. He obviously has his own agenda and that is fine but I dont want to be a part of it....... there are irc conversations I have seen that show him plotting to spy on enemies and allies alike................as for GLoF not having honor that statement from you is laughable at best. Also your opinion means less than nothing to me you are a has been in CN go away.
[/quote]


I'm fairly certain we both know who this person was that you "asked around about Veneke" and we both know that they have an axe to grind. As someone who was their ally, why would you have to ask around about him to begin with?

Fact is, you took to heart what a disgruntled ex-member told you. Trust me, we were not happy with 57th after they attacked our ally in WFF, but not to the point of a declaration of war. We were egged on by certain people to bring attacks against 57th or at least demand their defensive backing in order to get them rolled by other alliances. With those things in the recent past then this bogus DoW, it's clear there was premeditation to all of this.

It's completely pathetic and it's going to bite you in the &$* GLoF.

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[quote name='Charles the Great' date='14 February 2010 - 12:25 PM' timestamp='1266168318' post='2180882']
I have asked around about Veneke and found out he does lie and twist words around all the time, even if this blows over I would be opposed to ever being allied with any alliance he is a part of ever agian. He obviously has his own agenda and that is fine but I dont want to be a part of it....... there are irc conversations I have seen that show him plotting to spy on enemies and allies alike................as for GLoF not having honor that statement from you is laughable at best. Also your opinion means less than nothing to me you are a has been in CN go away.
[/quote]

You don't want to be allied to them? Are you kidding? Who the hell would want to be allied to GLOF when they attack their own allies with crap for evidence. What kind of alliance does that? It is almost as pathetic as your attempts to justify it. I just hope GLOF has somebody slightly competent that can try and extract themselves from this disaster. At least they can try and salvage some sort of respect from this mess. Although I will admit it takes a special kind of fail to bring alliances on different sides of a global war together to unite to point out just how badly GLOF has failed. Oh and thank you for adding flames to the fire. If your goal was to even further embarrass your alliance, then congrats you get a gold star.

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[quote name='JWConner' date='14 February 2010 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1266173029' post='2180991']
I'm fairly certain we both know who this person was that you "asked around about Veneke" and we both know that they have an axe to grind. As someone who was their ally, why would you have to ask around about him to begin with?

Fact is, you took to heart what a disgruntled ex-member told you. Trust me, we were not happy with 57th after they attacked our ally in WFF, but not to the point of a declaration of war. We were egged on by certain people to bring attacks against 57th or at least demand their defensive backing in order to get them rolled by other alliances. With those things in the recent past then this bogus DoW, it's clear there was premeditation to all of this.

It's completely pathetic and it's going to bite you in the &$* GLoF.
[/quote]

Are telling me JW that I could go to any member of your alliance and ask them to give me all the qualities and traits that your allies leaders hold? I doubt it. Charles had to check because he doesn't know Ven very well... Hell, I don't know Ven very well. Weird considering that a year ago I was excited at the prospect of signing a treaty with them. Oh yes, for those of you that noticed. I'm talking about long before a treaty existed between the 57th and the Lodge. Back when Ven was second in command. Looking back it is rather strange that even though I was always hanging out and talking to various 57th members I never met their second in command and current leader. I didn't formally meet Ven until a just over a month ago when I was sent to help dig him out of the hole he put the 57th in. So perhaps you should not just assume that everybody knows everybody else if they're allied to them. K? thanks.

If you're talking about who I think you're talking about then perhaps you should re-think your arguments. Or rather just not say anything at all. The premeditation behind this was receiving the SS that made us go back and look at the original SS. And after having multiple career graphic designers say that the images were forged, or answered "probably, yes" to the question we tried to reach the 57th. They never answered. We talked with our other allies. and then we DoWed. That's the premeditation behind it. The person that you inadvertently accuse of organizing this war wasn't made aware of the target until a couple of hours before update. Almost the entire alliance had no idea who we were attacking until about an hour before our DoW came. It may be that I am the only person that knew who we were attacking outside of the council in advance, but that's only because I connected what little dots there were correctly. So yes, this was premeditated about a day, maybe a day and a half in advance. There is no conspiracy here. Sometimes life is rather simple. This is one of those cases.

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[quote name='Bower3aj' date='14 February 2010 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1266181667' post='2181220']
Are telling me JW that I could go to any member of your alliance and ask them to give me all the qualities and traits that your allies leaders hold? I doubt it. Charles had to check because he doesn't know Ven very well... Hell, I don't know Ven very well. Weird considering that a year ago I was excited at the prospect of signing a treaty with them. Oh yes, for those of you that noticed. I'm talking about long before a treaty existed between the 57th and the Lodge. Back when Ven was second in command. Looking back it is rather strange that even though I was always hanging out and talking to various 57th members I never met their second in command and current leader. I didn't formally meet Ven until a just over a month ago when I was sent to help dig him out of the hole he put the 57th in. So perhaps you should not just assume that everybody knows everybody else if they're allied to them. K? thanks.

If you're talking about who I think you're talking about then perhaps you should re-think your arguments. Or rather just not say anything at all. The premeditation behind this was receiving the SS that made us go back and look at the original SS. And after having multiple career graphic designers say that the images were forged, or answered "probably, yes" to the question we tried to reach the 57th. They never answered. We talked with our other allies. and then we DoWed. That's the premeditation behind it. The person that you inadvertently accuse of organizing this war wasn't made aware of the target until a couple of hours before update. Almost the entire alliance had no idea who we were attacking until about an hour before our DoW came. It may be that I am the only person that knew who we were attacking outside of the council in advance, but that's only because I connected what little dots there were correctly. So yes, this was premeditated about a day, maybe a day and a half in advance. There is no conspiracy here. Sometimes life is rather simple. This is one of those cases.
[/quote]


The internal procedures of the 57th at the time of the signing of the treaty had the second in command in charge of internal, and not external, affairs. I was rather more busy setting up trade rings, recruitment, activity, education and so on rather than with talking to our allies, mainly because Mechanus had taken that up as his area of expertise. It also made more sense for him to do so, due to the nature of the command structure in the 57th. I personally prefer dealing with people inside my alliance, because those are my crew (That's a Firefly reference, if you don't get it, don't comment on it). It's a personal preference of mine, and one that, back then, I didn't have to overly concern myself about. I never once saw Mechanus work on any trade ring, education system, or anything of the like, so nor did I go into his realm of affairs, and that was just the way it was done. Same thing can be said for the Quartermaster, the two of us stayed away from the military, and gave him a free rein. That was how the government was run under Mechanus. It's changed somewhat since.

I'm curious, when ye went talking to these career designers, did they check that image that ye were given? Amateurs and career blokes alike have spotted the differences. Hell, I know nothing about the thing and it's obvious that there's something odd about it. With regards to the images I took myself and gave ye, you'll note that all of my images look like that, as up until now I was unaware that JPEG's are dodgy images. Plus, for whatever reason, my images all possess that grainy distorted effect, and oddly enough seem to differ in how they're distorted. A previous image was linked earlier in the thread which pretty much recreated that effect (not as extreme as the one given, but nonetheless a recreation).

Contact was made to me (while I was afk) at 5.00 am GMT. This declaration went out 42 minutes later. The entirety of the message left by Penedono was "Hi!". That was the sum total of contact you tried to make with me. You're well aware of the fact that I'm on GMT actual, which was why this makes no sense in the slightest. When I talked to Penedono running this by him again yesterday (and Thunderstrike from RIA can confirm this) his reply was something to the extent of "I don't care." though he certainly had a more colourful way of phrasing it.

It is curious to note though that target lists were made before an attempt was made to contact me... that's quite interesting indeed.



For the record (thought I stated this earlier in this thread, but perhaps not), had GLOF come to me and shown me this, we would of course have dropped the accusation because GLOF wouldn't have felt that the evidence was satisfactory. This was done earlier, when previous evidence linking Iyeman to a spy in the 57th was deemed inconclusive, and we had no problem with that. We realized and accepted that Iyeman was a GLOF member, and it was up to Penedono to establish his guilt or innocence. As it turned out, in the event, they took what I had, verified it themselves, went to talk to Iyeman, who then decided to go nuke rogue on me, mysteriously got this screenshot of me saying it was all planned (a screenshot that stands up to no kind of scrutiny at all), decided to draw up plans to attack the 57th before contact was even made with me, and then, well... that's when this thread started.

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