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[quote name='Pyroman' date='13 February 2010 - 02:03 PM' timestamp='1266087786' post='2179504']
I have to agree with what some have said. That post isn't typical of Veneke's posting style. If he were really bragging about such a thing he wouldn't hold back on the arrogant, pompous attitude he usually displays in those kinds of situations.

All the same, that post is lacking. Whoever took the screenshot was kind enough to leave out the IP and topic information for that post. This was probably for when they decided to edit the screenie, they would have less work to do.
[/quote]

I can see the argument for the topic. However, as for the IP, you are assuming that they have the ability to see the IPs. This is not guaranteed.

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[quote name='Duke of Cool' date='13 February 2010 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1266087294' post='2179493']
For all you judgmental types who constantly jump to conclusions ON THIS FORUM, to say that diplomacy was not attempted is just plain sillyassedness. The entire crux of CN is the communication that goes on outside of the numbers. [b]EVERY. REASONABLE. ATTEMPT. was made to contact the leader of the 57th, to no avail.[/b]

Your high horses aren't so high. If you find yourself in our situation, you too will have to answer to the naysayers. It is the price of politics here and out in the real world. Opinions are formed. The smart ones, however, will take into account all of the machinations that go into decisions such as that we have made. GLOF has never been opportunistic, at least since I've been a part of it. As a group, we lament the use of war as a solution to conflict, yet we march just the same if it is needed. We have followed our treaty partners into war, not questioning the heart of the matter, but following the treaty that ultimately defines the friendship of alliances. When our alliance is attacked in such a way, to tamper with our membership in a foolish schoolyard tug-of-war, we act. If we cannot be afforded an opportunity to talk the conflict out, the next step must be taken.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, but this is just absurd. Was there a pressing reason that war had to be declared that particular night before talks were held? You went looking for .gov when we were all away (OOC: doing RL things, like sleeping, 'cause I'm on a bloody different timezone, which your leaders well knew).

You tried for what... a whole 3 hours while there was no one about, and decided that the best possible recourse in a situation like this was to declare on your ally, without talking to them. It was a knee-jerk reaction, and that's the fact of it. Be that as it may, the situation is as it is.

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[quote name='Bower3aj' date='13 February 2010 - 02:09 PM' timestamp='1266088141' post='2179510']
I can see the argument for the topic. However, as for the IP, you are assuming that they have the ability to see the IPs. This is not guaranteed.
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True, but I'm under the impression that this would definitely be something spoken in a government only section. I guess I'm no expert on how other alliances run their forums, but for us, typically government officials have some type of admin ability. Consequently I'd think whoever took this screenshot would also be able to see IP's. But you're right, it's still not guaranteed.

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[quote name='Veneke' date='13 February 2010 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1266088230' post='2179515']
and decided that the best possible recourse in a situation like this was to declare on your ally, [/quote]


It's all "he said, she said" at this point. You, just like us, have every reason to justify actions, or the lack thereof.

But it was not us who committed the first act of war.

Time will play out, words will be said. As in the OP, our information was absolutely sufficient to realize that we were being attacked. By an ally. The world's not effed up enough as it is, but now we have to keep a sharp eye on our own flanks, rather than forward? Absurdity, indeed, sir.

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[quote name='Duke of Cool' date='13 February 2010 - 07:17 PM' timestamp='1266088675' post='2179526']
It's all "he said, she said" at this point. You, just like us, have every reason to justify actions, or the lack thereof.

But it was not us who committed the first act of war.

Time will play out, words will be said. As in the OP, our information was absolutely sufficient to realize that we were being attacked. By an ally. The world's not effed up enough as it is, but now we have to keep a sharp eye on our own flanks, rather than forward? Absurdity, indeed, sir.
[/quote]

Er... yeah, no. This is not a "he said, she said" kinda thing.

You declared war on us without talking to us.

That there is what we call a fact. Odd little things I know, but there you go.

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So I ignored this last night because it didn't make sense and I was hoping that when I got on today some other more knowledgeable people would have come in and made some sort of definitive conclusion. Apparently that's not the case. The Veneke post screenshot doesn't really sound like him (did he use "ye" at all?), and considering how easy it is to fake that sort of a screenshot that's probably a better metric than "the pixels look shopped." I admit I'm not some screenshot forensics expert or anything, but this whole thing doesn't make any sense.

You attacked your MDoAP partner over evidence that you claim is damning, yet everyone else is just scratching their heads going "well, it [i]could[/i] be fake, I guess...." You claim that "every attempt" was made to contact 57th Government, yet you also say you received the second screenshot yesterday (or yesterday's yesterday, today).

This doesn't make sense.

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[quote name='Heft' date='13 February 2010 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1266090708' post='2179569']
So I ignored this last night because it didn't make sense and I was hoping that when I got on today some other more knowledgeable people would have come in and made some sort of definitive conclusion. Apparently that's not the case. The Veneke post screenshot doesn't really sound like him (did he use "ye" at all?), and considering how easy it is to fake that sort of a screenshot that's probably a better metric than "the pixels look shopped." I admit I'm not some screenshot forensics expert or anything, but this whole thing doesn't make any sense.

You attacked your MDoAP partner over evidence that you claim is damning, yet everyone else is just scratching their heads going "well, it [i]could[/i] be fake, I guess...." You claim that "every attempt" was made to contact 57th Government, yet you also say you received the second screenshot yesterday (or yesterday's yesterday, today).

This doesn't make sense.
[/quote]

Why am I being forced to agree with heft and admit I acted in basically the same way as him :<

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Why not hold a forum with the leaders of 57th in a room on IRC and work this out? Similar to what was done when Modus was trying to bait you in to a war with him. Anyone who knows your relationship with the 57th knows you don't want a war with them.

Again,

Best of Luck

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[quote name='Cairna' date='13 February 2010 - 03:14 PM' timestamp='1266092042' post='2179602']
Seriously, everybody saying that GLOF is a great alliance and that they may have made a mistake here, top.


GLOF you're a horrible alliance, and a horrible ally. But god is it ever funny.
[/quote]

They're a bunch of whiners on top of that and likely one of the worst alliances I've had to deal with.

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[quote name='Felix von Agnu' date='13 February 2010 - 11:13 AM' timestamp='1266077587' post='2179307']
I'd put money on a traitor in 57th trying to get his alliance rolled.
[/quote]
Wouldn't be the first time someone has tried this on their alliance for fun. <_<

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Oh yes, and we also eat babies.
I mean, no, those were the communists. -_-

Please people: stay in thread.
And you are always talking about the alleged Veneke screenshot: this was only the final proof we HAD to look closely at the first ones... and we did.

And, more, the last one was sent to us by someone who knew that the first two have been sent already: and this is reserved stuff.
Not everyone in the Lodge or in 57th knew that, for instance.

Edited by obscurus
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GLOF is a trustworthy bunch and what actions they have taken had to have been with cause. Why is this thread being trashed the way it is. They have evidence in hand, good evidence, not something that people have used as an "excuse" to start a war. Definitely GLOF are not warmongers by any means. Good luck in your conflict.

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We have two facts here. One is that GLOF is being played and the other is that the responsible parties are in the 57th. As all screenshots came from 57th members this is not in doubt.

Now we have a screenshot sent from Veneke with an anomaly that is consistent with being photoshopped. The other screenshot shows no physical anomaly. The arguemnet against it being valid seems to be that Veneke doesn't "talk" like that post. I've read his posts in this thread and see no large differences between them. Saying that post exonerates him is the most flimsy arguement of all here.

With the 57th being involved in a global war you might think that some government member might be available at some point in the day to talk to GLOF...or maybe GLOF was being avoided.

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[quote name='obscurus' date='13 February 2010 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1266092803' post='2179627']
Oh yes, and we also eat babies.
I mean, no, those were the communists. -_-

Please people: stay in thread.
And you are always talking about the alleged Veneke screenshot: this was only the final proof we HAD to look closely at the first ones... and we did.

And, more, the last one was sent to us by someone who knew that the first two have been sent already: and this is reserved stuff.
Not everyone in the Lodge or in 57th knew that, for instance.
[/quote]

Well whoever posted the forum screen shot would have to have just been a normal member other wise they would have a Mod or admin mask and this would allow them to hit the edit button on vens post. However we can see that the edit button is not there in that screen shot. So it would have to have been posted somewhere that normal members can see. For what it is worth if that was ever posted in an alliance i was part of i would leave, i was on at the time that was meant to have been posted and i can guarantee there was no post even remotely similar.

Apart from the fact it sounds nothing like Ven and other such stuff.

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[quote name='Erixxxx' date='13 February 2010 - 02:42 PM' timestamp='1266093770' post='2179651']
You have clearly never talked to Veneke in private before.
[/quote]

No, I haven't. I am asking you to look at his posts thus far in this thread. I see nothing to give any evidence that the person posting in this thread is any different than the one posting in the screenshot.

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Just a few more points..

1. The guys surrendering from 57th are saying Veneke "played them". I'm not taking this as a confession as it clearly isn't. I'm just taking this as showing that members of his own alliance are not seeing this post to be so clearly unlike his style, as people are saying here.

2. Quite a few people who do know veneke are saying he does sometimes write like this.

3. AND again, this is the all crucial fact.. The first screenshot that Veneke gave us to prove one of our nations is a spy, has been tampered with. That much it seems everyone is in agreement with.

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Heft - I agree.

Cairna - Despite our many differences, you're a funny bloke.

Monkeybum - Er... ? The "bottom line" of which you speak really does end with you declaring on us without talking to us first. That said, I'm more than happy to talk to ye now, but all I'm getting is "We're sorry for this. But the evidence..." then when I go and show ye that there are massive inconsistencies in the screenshot provided to ye, I'm rewarded with "Well, this tech stuff is all over my head.", or "Well Veneke, we know that you'll deny it.". It could be that it is over your heads, a substantial amount of it is for me (not a terribly hard thing to achieve, but the fact stands nonetheless). One obvious one that I picked up on was that there is no space between the text and the dotted line. If you'll notice on our forums there is a space between the end text and the dotted line above the signature on all posts. There are also other things with regards to distances and pixels and such, but that's all beyond me too.

The first screenshots, as has been explained, are inconsistent due to the poor file format I saved it in. Not sure how well to follow up on this. (OOC: because invisionfree doesn't save all IP's used from a username.) This all said, had you come to me and said "Well, look it Ven, I'm not so sure this is sufficient. Here's why..." we could have avoided all of this. You have to remember that Iyeman attacked me once you went talking to him, I haven't had a single word with Iyeman in quite a spell. All ye there lads.

Hobgoblin - Ye. :P

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[quote name='monkeybum' date='13 February 2010 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1266094130' post='2179661']

3. AND again, this is the all crucial fact.. The first screenshot that Veneke gave us to prove one of our nations is a spy, has been tampered with. That much it seems everyone is in agreement with.
[/quote]

umm i am sorry but i dispute all of your evidence. Many people have agreed it was just the poor format it was saved in. I told you to pop round the forums and we would have him take another screen shot and it would turn out just the same. You guys being their would prove he did not have the time to alter it. You guys accepted the screen shot in the first place i might add.

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This, I must say, is a mess. A God damned mess. In fact, it is the biggest mess I have ever seen. Why?

Because here we have two allies, two very close allies, two allies with a relationship I will claim credit for starting almost two years ago, canceling their treaty on a whim and going to war with each other under less than austere circumstances.

GLOF is an alliance that I have put my full faith in because I knew people like Alex, Alaric and Phil were smart people, and they stuck to their word. 57th, and Veneke as an individual, are people that I have also known for the better part of two years. Veneke is a man I worked with for a very long time and he is a man that I put a lot of trust in.

So here I am thrust into a situation where two groups, perhaps two of the alliances I trust most, have gone to war, one accusing the other of lying and inventing screenshots in order to exact revenge. While Veneke is a man you do not want to cross he is not a man, I believe, would stoop so low as to invent evidence just to exact revenge. From my time working with him, Veneke is someone who keeps a very rigid line of what is and is not acceptable for a person to do in this world, and lying to an ally lies so far on the 'wrong' side of the line that I have a very hard time believing my long-time friends in GLOF.

Yet I also have a very hard time believing that GLOF would invent these screenshots to give them a reason to attack 57th. GLOF is simply too good of an alliance, and I know people in GLOF who I dont think would stick around there if GLOF began stooping to such a level.

Do I believe GLOF made a mistake in rushing into this? Yes, indeed I do. As far as I can tell an adequate effort was not made to reach Veneke on this.

To this arguing that perhaps Veneke was trying to avoid GLOF, your argument is laughable and pathetic. Veneke is one of my oldest friends here and even I havent been able to get in touch with him over the past few days. So unless I have completely misjudged the level of friendship between Veneke and I, he legitimately wasnt around when you were trying to reach him (And given I am often on when the majority of GLOF govt is on, I would assume we were trying to reach him around the same time).

The other reason why that is laughable is because Veneke is not the type of person to avoid talking to allies. Like I said earlier, though Veneke is not a man without his faults, there are certain things he will not to, lying to and avoiding allies is one of them.

I cannot, however, bring myself to believe that GLOF WANTS to attack 57th, I cannot bring myself to believe that they invented this whole story, all these screenshots, so that they could cancel this treaty and attack 57th. Doing something like that would go against what I have learned and experienced of GLOF over my roughly two years of dealing with them and of knowing them and their members.



Ladies and Gentlemen, what we have here, I think, is not only a failure to communicate, but also an effort to discredit Veneke and the 57th Overlanders. Sadly I think GLOF bought some unnamed members story, I think they have been hoodwinked, and I think 57th and GLOF have some internal searching and investigation they need to do to get to the bottom of this.

If either party needs my help, you know where to find me.




Let me say one final thing, if it does turn out that Veneke really did orchestrate all this, or that certain members of GLOF did fabricate this in order to attack 57th and tar Veneke:

I hope you burn.



-FS
Very, Very, Very pissed off

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