With Friends Like These...

[uisge beatha]

[quote name='obscurus' date='13 February 2010 - 05:22 AM' timestamp='1266060124' post='2179088']
The posts that Veneke provided to us to make us expel a former member of 57th from the Lodge are fakes. And everyone with a minimum of image-editing skills can ascertain this (and everyone can, as they are publically located at http://www.square-n-compass.net/forum/showthread.php?6291-Imagery-referenced-in-the-Lodge-s-DoW-on-the-57th-Overlanders&p=78459#post78459).

And this is a [b]FACT[/b]

Even if the rest was too (and remember, it doesn't [u]look[/u] like a fake), still the first two were, undoubtably. So, we'd like to hear what Veneke has to say about [u]that[/u], which is the CB.
[/quote]

I am sorry but the screens veneke provided of the IP addresses are not faked, you could even get someone masked on our forums and get him to take a screen shot. It would look the exact same way it does in the screens he provided. I agree the screen shot looks poor quality however that is a problem his end and not proof of it being photo shopped.

I know what i say does not mean much, but i can guarantee that the shot of our forums was never posted there. If an alliance i was in posted anything like that i would leave straight after reading it.

[obscurus]

Uisge,
you talk like an honourable person - but the IP address of the first screenshot - looked upon somewhat close - is an obvious fake.
Have u looked closely at it? Please, do.

[Cyphon88]

Oh dear oh dear 57th.

Sorry to see this happen to you guys in GLOF. At least this war is pretty damn legitmate.

/o GLOF for doing it right.

[uisge beatha]

[quote name='obscurus' date='13 February 2010 - 06:02 AM' timestamp='1266062568' post='2179117']
Uisge,
you talk like an honourable person - but the IP address of the first screenshot - looked upon somewhat close - is an obvious fake.
Have u looked closely at it? Please, do.
[/quote]

I have looked at it and i must admit the quality of it did not look good. however I got Ven to take another screen shot today with a few members online and it still had the same poor quality and grainy effect with a bit of distortion on the numbers.

All i ask is one of you guys head over to the forums get a mask and get Ven to take an instant screen shot and post it to you guys, it would not give him time to alter anything and it would show you guys how crap his computer is at taking screen shots.

[Kindom of Goon]

Ven, please tell me you didn't do this? :/

[tobiash]

I have been looking closely at the pics on glof's forum and I have a question.

All the text on this pic (look below) is distorted, why would Veneke c/p in new text in all the fields? That would be petty stupid


Edit: Veneke, try increasing the quallity when you save pic as jpg! or try to use a other format, maybe png!

Edited February 15, 2010 by Lyra
Personal information violation removed

[feestaap1]

deleted by the autor

Edited February 17, 2010 by feestaap1

[Dunnowhat]

I, Dunnowhat of Tirendia, surrender to GLOF.

Just a note, you guys know how jpeg works, right?

[obscurus]

The fact is that there is a noticeable difference of quality between how the IPs look in the RED posts (Veneke, Holloweyes, Desertson) and in the GREEN one (JackieChan).
Please, everyone take a look at it and notice that.

The IP number looks more crisp in JC entry than in the others, and somewhat darker - so, like it was cut out and placed there.

Also, there is no digital noise over it and under it, contrary to what happens in the other three ones.

So, how come that this screendump has varying image qualities over it, as it should come from the same pc? It should be all the same: and this is NOT the case.

Edit: errers and formatting

Edited February 13, 2010 by obscurus

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='uisge beatha' date='13 February 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1266062195' post='2179115']
I am sorry but the screens veneke provided of the IP addresses are not faked, [b]you could even get someone masked on our forums and get him to take a screen shot[/b]. It would look the exact same way it does in the screens he provided. I agree the screen shot looks poor quality however that is a problem his end and not proof of it being photo shopped.

I know what i say does not mean much, but i can guarantee that the shot of our forums was never posted there. If an alliance i was in posted anything like that i would leave straight after reading it.
[/quote]

Well someone should take you up on this offer, if you indeed have the authority to get this done, nothing speaks innocence like full disclosure. I am sure if you let a mutually acceptable third party have a look at the page in question, they could dispel any lies/misunderstandings that have arisen. Or if you are feeling sure enough, why not let a GLOF gov member have a look for themselves. I am sure if what you say is correct, GLOF will be happy to rescind this war.


Sad really to see any alliance go from being friends to enemies in so short a time.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='uisge beatha' date='13 February 2010 - 06:10 AM' timestamp='1266063047' post='2179124']
I have looked at it and i must admit the quality of it did not look good. however I got Ven to take another screen shot today with a few members online and it still had the same poor quality and grainy effect with a bit of distortion on the numbers.
[/quote]

Its not about the distortion, such is natural when compressing to a lower quality jpeg, however it appears the issue is more about the inconsistent distortion of the vital numbers. Essentially, to save an image once, you get some distortion, to save it twice, you get more distortion, but if a part is different, then that segment of the image would have only have been compressed to the image one time, and as a result it would have less distortion.

I don't see why it had to be such a big issue, on one hand, if it is true, I'm very disappointed at anybody who maliciously allows another to perform a miscarriage of justice to achieve their personal goals, on the other hand, couldn't you have waited until they tried to pressure you to eject the second to move, that would have provided undeniable evidence where this is somewhat shaky.

[uisge beatha]

same thing happens in this screen capture, and it was given to me 60 seconds or so after it was taken. This same example could be set up again with anyone that is sent over to check that there is no time to photoshop it.

EDIT:
[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='13 February 2010 - 06:47 AM' timestamp='1266065261' post='2179144']
Well someone should take you up on this offer, if you indeed have the authority to get this done, nothing speaks innocence like full disclosure. I am sure if you let a mutually acceptable third party have a look at the page in question, they could dispel any lies/misunderstandings that have arisen. Or if you are feeling sure enough, why not let a GLOF gov member have a look for themselves. I am sure if what you say is correct, GLOF will be happy to rescind this war.


Sad really to see any alliance go from being friends to enemies in so short a time.
[/quote]

This is what i would like to happen, i do not have the authority to do so. However i could see no problems in giving GLOF a mask to do so. If it helped prove innocence i am sure people would be happy to do it

Edited February 15, 2010 by Lyra
Personal information violation removed

[Viion Niccolar]

I formally surrender my nation to the care and protection of GLOF. I assume they will either allow me to keep a decent enough military to protect against third party attacks or they will protect me against said attacks.

Yours sincerely,
Viion Niccolar
Lensherre of the Northern Len

[url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=348669"]Northern Len[/url]

Edited February 13, 2010 by Viion Niccolar

[tobiash]

[quote name='obscurus' date='13 February 2010 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1266065189' post='2179142']
The fact is that there is a noticeable difference of quality between how the IPs look in the RED posts (Veneke, Holloweyes, Desertson) and in the GREEN one (JackieChan).
Please, everyone take a look at it and notice that.

The IP number looks more crisp in JC entry than in the others, and somewhat darker - so, like it was cut out and placed there.

Also, there is no digital noise over it and under it, contrary to what happens in the other three ones.

So, how come that this screendump has varying image qualities over it, as it should come from the same pc? It should be all the same: and this is NOT the case.

Edit: errers and formatting
[/quote]

And after he 'editted' the IP's he went on to edit the text 'What do you recon'? It has almost the same 'editting faults' that you talk about!

But I have no stake in this! and will exit the stage!

Edited February 13, 2010 by tobiash

[Jack Diorno]

Lol, I took a look and those screenshots haven't been photoshopped in any noticeable way, but whatever guys.

[The Big Bad]

So in the middle of a global war, you dont investigate, you don't conduct diplomacy? You attack. Now you will be most likely end up getting rolled over what currently looks like some pretty crappy evidence. You could have handled this a dozen different ways and yet managed to choose the worst. Brilliant.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='13 February 2010 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1266068035' post='2179175']
So in the middle of a global war, you dont investigate, you don't conduct diplomacy? You attack. Now you will be most likely end up getting rolled over what currently looks like some pretty crappy evidence. You could have handled this a dozen different ways and yet managed to choose the worst. Brilliant.
[/quote]

I rarely agree with this man. But he is right. I hope for GLOF's sake that they have their house in order. I also hope, for 57th's sake...the cowardice of those who have surrendered to such shoddy evidence is duly noted.

[Veneke]

/me looks at the date

No, it is not 1 April.

Okay...

The 57th approached GLOF twice over the possibility of Iyeman holding a spy in the 57th. The first relates to an IRC impersonation of one of our members. The IP codes in this nearly, very nearly, matched. The only essential difference was the first few numbers, the rest were all the same. GLOF and myself agreed that this does not constitute irrefutable proof. Personally, I thought it was as good proof as any, but he was and is their member, and I was not going to push the issue over what they considered flimsy evidence.

What we have here concerns the second incident. I had been on the lookout for similar IP's to Iyeman's pretty much since the first incident (what good leader wouldn't?), and I eventually found JackieChan's as a perfect match. I took the screenshot (both of which GLOF have reproduced) and gave the screenshots to them. GLOF tech blokes agreed that JackieChan was Iyeman, and when they went to confront Iyeman, he turned nuclear rogue on me. I had sort of assumed that this would be the end of it. Clearly not.

Continuing chronologically, GLOF appear to have been sent an image of a post apparently made by myself, and subsequently acted on it without even talking to me, or indeed any 57th government member. In point of fact, no message of any kind was sent to any government member from GLOF, but instead it was our other friends who left messages to us of GLOF's intent. This is where we are at the moment.

To refer to the screenshots, as Uisge has already said, the problem in the pixel inconsistency (or whatever the hell it is, I'm not too well up on tech things...), relates entirely to how the screenshot is taken, and the fact that JackieChan was logged in as anonymously (you see the little star beside his name in the screenshot?). Myself and Uisge tested this theory, and it reveals the same "inconsistency" in pixels. It has nothing to do with the image being faked, but rather that, for whatever reason, revealing anonymous people on the Online List results in a different type of viewing. I've no idea how or why this is the case, but it is nevertheless so. Had GLOF come to us stating this, we could have easily resolved all of this. If that meant letting Iyeman go, then fair enough. He is after all a member of GLOF and under their protection, if they didn't feel the evidence was satisfactory, then there's very little we would be willing to do about that. In fact, we didn't engage Iye at all, except to defend myself against his rogue actions.

With regards to my alleged post... that's a complete fabrication. I realize that this is kind of a cop-out answer, but it is as it is. Look at the manner of the post, and compare that to how I post usually. Even those who I would not normally see eye-to-eye with are in agreement that that post is nothing like what I would write. Nothing at all in fact.

At the end of the day, you will believe what you want to believe, and my contact with GLOF so far shows that they are unwilling to even consider the fact that the screenshot of my alleged post is faked. I will admit that I have not talked to them yet about the differences in pixels as others have discussed in this thread, but that is due to the fact that we only just established that.

[Drai]

If you can get any one of these nations to willingly fight I'll be impressed:

1. [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=58557"]Bart Simpson of Gameville[/url]
2. [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=58543"]Bill-the-great of Highlandia[/url]
3. [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=60190"]John_268 of Land of Freedom[/url]
4. [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=51087"]sack-o-potato of The Dump[/url]

They came to GR from The Samurai, they left when we entered the Karma war. They pretty much said directly that they didn't come to fight. After the Karma war when they were still on The Samurai AA I tech raided a few of them for fun and they made a [b][i]huge[/i][/b] deal about it, going as far as requesting sanctions against me and a couple others who were tech raiding them. (lol they originally talked to the blue team senator even though I was on aqua). They are true neutrals and if nothing has changed you can expect 0 offensive wars from them.

Temporary Meatshilds Aquired at least.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Drai

[nippy]

[quote name='Veneke' date='13 February 2010 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1266070349' post='2179189']
The IP codes in this nearly, very nearly, matched. The only essential difference was the first few numbers, the rest were all the same.
[/quote]


holy crap. The 'first few numbers' of an IP address are what's important. If they're different, then the IP's don't match.

[Veneke]

[quote name='nippy' date='13 February 2010 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1266071469' post='2179198']
holy crap. The 'first few numbers' of an IP address are what's important. If they're different, then the IP's don't match.
[/quote]

I'm assured by blokes with much more technical know-how than I that the difference in the first few numbers of an IP address on IRC referred to a near geographic match. Or something like that... it's rather above my head, but they did agree that it was either a freak occurrence with a proxy, or someone on the same network (near enough to the same network) as Iyeman.

[neneko]

I have to say the evidence against ven here is somewhere betwen dubious and non-existant. Any jpeg image with lower quality will have varying quality over the image. A few pixels in one place not looking the same as some in another hardly proves anything.

Attacking a direct ally with this kind of proof seems a bit drastic.

This is a good reminder to always use png in cases where the pic will be used as evidence though.

[AironthFlamewing]

o/ GLOF

good luck guys!

[Kindom of Goon]

[quote name='Veneke' date='13 February 2010 - 02:12 PM' timestamp='1266070349' post='2179189']


With regards to my alleged post... that's a complete fabrication. I realize that this is kind of a cop-out answer, but it is as it is. Look at the manner of the post, and compare that to how I post usually. Even those who I would not normally see eye-to-eye with are in agreement that that post is nothing like what I would write. Nothing at all in fact.

[/quote]

Indeed, I think pretty much everyone who knows Ven found that post to be a little off.

GLoF, you guys have always seemed like a very respectable group, I'm very surprised that you've declared on a long time ally without confronting them first, if nothing else it would have allowed you to be a little more confident about what actually went down.

[Captain Enema]

I'm pretty sure any threads that incriminate the 57th would have long since been deleted.