Charles the Great Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 [quote name='The Flying Scotsman' date='15 February 2010 - 05:12 PM' timestamp='1266264766' post='2183360'] Alliances would do well to learn that their image is not affected only by the words and actions of their leaders, but also by the words and actions of their members. GLOF is an alliance that I have respected greatly over my career here on Bob, however the display by members of GLOF in this thread, as well as the course GLOF has taken in regards to this situation, have forced me to realize that GLOF is no longer the alliance I was once close with. GLOF, there are important lessons to be learned here. I sincerely hope that there are members yet left amongst you that are capable of picking up on such lessons. [/quote] Why because when we catch an alliance trying to ZI one of our own for personal reasons that have nothing to do with GLoF and people call us dishonorable we dont just bite our lip and let them? I will let alot slide but calling us liars is not one of them............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 You know, this whole mess is probably doing more damage to GLOF than the original plot would have. I think [i]that[/i] was the set-up. Crafty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoroshia Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 (edited) [quote]Why because when we catch an alliance trying to ZI one of our own for personal reasons that have nothing to do with GLoF and people call us dishonorable we dont just bite our lip and let them? I will let alot slide but calling us liars is not one of them............ [/quote] He wasn't one of your own. At the time he attacked Veneke, his alliance affiliation was something to the effect of "Veneke You Son of a B***". Is that a protected AA of yours, or do you generally try to protect those that go nuclear rogue? EDIT: Spelling. Edited February 15, 2010 by Theoroshia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesasquatch Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 [quote name='The Great One' date='15 February 2010 - 08:25 PM' timestamp='1266265532' post='2183378'] In your selective and ignorant thinking you think I helped prove your facts. I love how you accept my statement that the inconsistencies are present throughout the entire row. Then ignore the fact that you therefore must believe the Time and Location are faked as well. Especially when there is absolutely no reason to fake the Time or Location, which leads to the highly likely fact that the inconsistencies are due to something other than being faked. Seriously, are you the best GLoF has? I feel like I'm arguing with an eight year-old here. [/quote] All I'll say is that [b]there are inconsistencies, which you agree there are[/b]. I'm in no position to comment on why. You can draw whatever conclusions from the inconsistencies you wish. I've clearly upset you and I apologize for that. I've said all I will say, you will get no more out of me, try as you might. This is my last post regarding the matter. Again, I wish you a good day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles the Great Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Theoroshia' date='15 February 2010 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1266265880' post='2183383'] He wasn't one of your own. At the time he attacked Veneke, his alliance affiliation was something to the effect of "Veneke You Son of a B***". Is that a protected AA of yours, or do you generally try to protect those that go nuclear rogue? EDIT: Spelling. [/quote] he was until we were provided a fake ss implicating him in spying on your alliance............thats why he attacked. Did you just get here? Edited February 15, 2010 by Charles the Great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoroshia Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 [quote]he was until we were provided a fake ss implicating him in spying on your alliance............thats why he attacked. Did you just get here? [/quote] There's no proof that it was faked, other than tens of people voicing their opinions and your so-called 'experts', which is what all this hubub on the OWF is about. Did *you* just get here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The FSM Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 [quote name='Charles the Great' date='15 February 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1266265604' post='2183380'] Why because when we catch an alliance trying to ZI one of our own for personal reasons that have nothing to do with GLoF and people call us dishonorable we dont just bite our lip and let them? I will let alot slide but calling us liars is not one of them............ [/quote] It is because your government handled this poorly, both in verifying the source the most recent screenshot came from and in how you treated an MDoAP ally when this information was given to you. Now when people come out and point out the new screenshot is forged you backtrack and claim that it is irrelevant and say that the screenshots from Veneke were forged and that Veneke's act of allegedly forging these IP screenshots (which I hope you can see is far from conclusive) is a valid reason to immediately cancel the treaty and attack 57th without giving them anywhere near a sufficient amount of time to explain themselves or respond to these accusations. Now when you have people from a broad spectrum of the community (I would never have expected Voodoo to be defending 57th, nor NSO) trying to point out to you that the first IP screenshots may not be fake as you claim, you hunker down and shut yourselves off from criticism. With that said, I would like to thank Alexg for working with me to try and get to the bottom of who created that fake screenshot of Veneke. I still would like to believe that someone has fooled GLOF into attacking 57th, likely the same person who made this screenshot. I just wish GLOF as a whole were more willing to entertain the possibility that they may be wrong in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veneke Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 [quote name='bluesasquatch' date='15 February 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1266266433' post='2183397'] All I'll say is that [b]there are inconsistencies, which you agree there are[/b]. I'm in no position to comment on why. You can draw whatever conclusions from the inconsistencies you wish. I've clearly upset you and I apologize for that. I've said all I will say, you will get no more out of me, try as you might. This is my last post regarding the matter. Again, I wish you a good day. [/quote] I'm going to have to agree with Col (not difficult, he's on the ball most of the time). Nobody is denying the inconsistencies. They're there, we can all see them. What's interesting to note though is that GLOF leap to conclusions and scream that they're fake, while the person who gave you a fake screenshot of me (which everybody, including your leader, is not altogether sure is legitimate to begin with), remains both unnamed and that strand of this whole mess is decidedly not followed up. I can only speculate as to the why, but considering your alliance's general unwillingness to talk about anything at all other than terms (and even these aren't really up for debate, more a "Take these or we'll level your alliance" thing), I'm going to have to come to the conclusion that you've realized that this entire thing is a mess, and you were played. 'course, you can't admit that... so me and mine have to lay down and just take it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanus Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 [quote name='Theoroshia' date='15 February 2010 - 12:46 PM' timestamp='1266266794' post='2183408'] There's no proof that it was faked, other than tens of people voicing their opinions and your so-called 'experts', which is what all this hubub on the OWF is about. Did *you* just get here? [/quote] I find it curious that you are here defending the very alliance who's leader, and I quote: [quote][22:48] <Theoroshia[57th]> Oh, and the worst part? [22:48] <Theoroshia[57th]> Ven pegs me as the guy who doctored the screenshots.[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoroshia Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 [quote name='Mechanus' date='15 February 2010 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1266267493' post='2183418'] I find it curious that you are here defending the very alliance who's leader, and I quote: [/quote] I knew you'd bring this up eventually. Yeah, at midnight my time, after seeing the supposed overwhelming evidence provided by GLOF, and after seeing the initial reaction by everyone, I thought Ven actually might have done this. Since then, I've changed my mind. Seems you're not out to just get Veneke anymore Mech. Anything else ye'd care to post about me Mech? Because right now, I could care less what you do to me in this game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanus Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 [quote name='Theoroshia' date='15 February 2010 - 01:02 PM' timestamp='1266267753' post='2183428'] I knew you'd bring this up eventually. Yeah, at midnight my time, after seeing the supposed overwhelming evidence provided by GLOF, and after seeing the initial reaction by everyone, I thought Ven actually might have done this. Since then, I've changed my mind. Seems you're not out to just get Veneke anymore Mech. Anything else ye'd care to post about me Mech? Because right now, I could care less what you do to me in this game. [/quote] I'm not out to get you. Just curious as to why you'd say one thing after surrendering to the Lodge PoW, then turn around and go back to the 57th and say you hope they take you back, then turn around and go back to the Lodge PoW and now come here and post things in defence of the 57th. I'm quite perplexed by this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoroshia Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Mechanus' date='15 February 2010 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1266268032' post='2183433'] I'm not out to get you. Just curious as to why you'd say one thing after surrendering to the Lodge PoW, then turn around and go back to the 57th and say you hope they take you back, then turn around and go back to the Lodge PoW and now come here and post things in defence of the 57th. I'm quite perplexed by this. [/quote] Well, to answer your first question; Last night, Pen sent me a message saying that I could go to whatever AA I wanted, that he was not out to get me. I told him I'd be going back to the 57th Overlanders AA (and I will admit, I got smart with him. No point in denying it). I didn't realize he meant after the current conflict was over. I therefore switched back to the Lodge PoW AA and sent him a message explaining the mix-up. What I said during those first hours is a make-up of alcohol and anguish at what I had thought my alliance leader had done. After re-examining everything when sobered up, I quickly realized all of the evidence was hearsay at best. I will admit, my opinions on what has been happening in the 57th these past few weeks hasn't been all that positive, but after seeing this happen, I can't help but agree with how we and our allies are handling the situation. EDIT: [quote]say you hope they take you back[/quote] That was a joke, directed at JWConners remarks saying that Veneke should not let anyone who surrendered back into the 57th. Edited February 15, 2010 by Theoroshia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defective Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 (edited) FOLLOWING FROM HERE ---> http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=80909&st=60&gopid=2183632&#entry2183632 GLOF, bunch of grade school bullies. GLOF will obviously never understand the answer as they have proven they carry no intellectual sense but for those who will, here is the explanation. The reason the pictures look cropped is because IT IS a jpeg. Jpg or Jpeg images are basic low quality images. Around all writing there is pixel distortion or disruption. I created 10 screenshots, all unedited and to which you can all see none of them have the same disruption. The jpeg image causes the disruption because a basic image format cannot re-create every pixel perfectly. If you take a tif or a psd it will be different. [IMG]http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac68/strikrgm/VENIRC1.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac68/strikrgm/VENIRC2.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac68/strikrgm/VENIRC3.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac68/strikrgm/VENIRC4.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac68/strikrgm/VENIRC5.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac68/strikrgm/VENIRC6.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac68/strikrgm/VENIRC7.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac68/strikrgm/VENIRC8.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac68/strikrgm/VENIRC9.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac68/strikrgm/VENIRC10.jpg[/IMG] What does this mean? GLOF cannot see that basis a war on pixel disruption to make the statement of IT'S A FAKE is simply stupid. The war is stupid, the reason is stupid and GLOF holds no physical proof exept because they said so. Simply pathethic. LONG LIVE The 57TH. R.I.P San Quentin (Defective) ZI'd by the morons of GLOF. Edited February 15, 2010 by Defective Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUGHTAILING Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 I wonder if the 57 will ever learn.We didn't want this war your government caused this.If he would just tell the truth maybe even say sorry and agree to some terms this would all be over.And for calling us bully's is out of line.We have shown kindness in this war.1.Were letting the members of the 57 become pows 2.As of right that i know of were not even using Nukes.You tell me what allinaces would agree to not use nukes?We use to love the 57 we aid and would fight beside them.Some of us still like the 57 its just there greedy government that has failed them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoroshia Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 (edited) [quote]I wonder if the 57 will ever learn.We didn't want this war your government caused this.If he would just tell the truth maybe even say sorry and agree to some terms this would all be over.And for calling us bully's is out of line.We have shown kindness in this war.1.Were letting the members of the 57 become pows 2.As of right that i know of were not even using Nukes.You tell me what allinaces would agree to not use nukes?We use to love the 57 we aid and would fight beside them.Some of us still like the 57 its just there greedy government that has failed them. [/quote] 1) Wow, you're letting people surrender? That rarely happens here in CN. 2) I would peg your no-nuke policy on the fact that your government has already received enough of a bad reputation as it is, and doesn't want to risk it further by nuking it's former friends. Also, our "government" didn't cause this or do anything wrong; in fact, at the time you came looking for us and then later attacked, we had no government members actively on. Additionally, it's been proven that 1) the screenshot that caused you to reconsider the validity of the first screenshot was false and 2) the first screenshot's validity can't be determined because of the file format being used. Sir, if you still "like the 57", then maybe you should take a look at your government and how it's treating you as GLoF's credibility goes further and further downwards. Edited February 16, 2010 by Theoroshia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 [quote name='HOUGHTAILING' date='16 February 2010 - 03:13 PM' timestamp='1266351221' post='2186028'] I wonder if the 57 will ever learn.We didn't want this war your government caused this.If he would just tell the truth maybe even say sorry and agree to some terms this would all be over.And for calling us bully's is out of line.We have shown kindness in this war.1.Were letting the members of the 57 become pows 2.As of right that i know of were not even using Nukes.You tell me what allinaces would agree to not use nukes?We use to love the 57 we aid and would fight beside them.Some of us still like the 57 its just there greedy government that has failed them. [/quote] Whereas you government, who not only broke an MDP-level treaty but did it by attacking the alliance it was held with, for reasons that are not only innaccurate but [I]would be completely moronic even if true[/I], are so much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerry wagner Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 [quote name='Delta1212' date='16 February 2010 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1266357975' post='2186282'] Whereas you government, who not only broke an MDP-level treaty but did it by attacking the alliance it was held with, for reasons that are not only innaccurate but [I]would be completely moronic even if true[/I], are so much better. [/quote] That about sums of the CB as well as the events that transpired to arrive at it. This CB smacks of an inability to think in any terms that don't arrive a violent conclusion. There apparently was no thought process involved in the decision nor any possible belief as to the repercussions. Unfortunate, I used to hold GLOF in rather high regard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Bad Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 [quote name='HOUGHTAILING' date='16 February 2010 - 03:13 PM' timestamp='1266351221' post='2186028'] I wonder if the 57 will ever learn.We didn't want this war your government caused this.If he would just tell the truth maybe even say sorry and agree to some terms this would all be over.And for calling us bully's is out of line.We have shown kindness in this war.1.Were letting the members of the 57 become pows 2.As of right that i know of were not even using Nukes.You tell me what allinaces would agree to not use nukes?We use to love the 57 we aid and would fight beside them.Some of us still like the 57 its just there greedy government that has failed them. [/quote] I think you are confused on what government failed here. You have a CB that could have easly been proved false if you had just asked someone. A CB so bad in fact it has united alliances at war with each other to condem it. You have shown kindness? Are you kidding me? You attacked your allies. That is about to lowest thing you can do. Your alliance is led by people who either have an agenda or are complete fools. Either way this is GLoF's fault, GLoF's failure and GLoF mess to fix. As a part of GLOF you can make you leaders do the right thing. Or you can do nothing. We have all now seen your leaders are failures with no honor. Now it is up to you and the rest of the members of your alliace to show all of Planet Bob if GLoF's members are as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 The amount of background knowledge required to make any sort of conclusion in this matter makes the amount of outside opinionating in it absolutely laughable. Veneke is not honorable, he has never been honorable, and he will never be honorable. It is because people like you all describe people like Veneke as honorable that I do not even recognize the description in context of Planet Bob. Veneke is a liar. He is a backroom dealer. He is a member-poaching, thieving traitor. He would kick his mother off a sinking boat if he thought it would give him 5 more minutes afloat. The people giving character vouches of Veneke are the same people complicit in his years of plotting. Veneke is, frankly, a mortal enemy of anyone he considers to have wronged him. The 57th Overlanders are founded upon lies, disrespect, and conniving. 2 years ago he was a gov member of Browncoats. While gov, he used his position to gather Browncoats who were disgruntled and form a breakaway alliance, HPS (which later changed its name to 57th). He further used his position to negotiate secret treaties with Browncoats allies, including a protectorate with IAA which he posted before IAA was ready in order to prevent justice from Browncoats. After Browncoats was attacked by the Dark Confederate Pact bloc, some went to 57th to join old friends. Due to this diaspora, Veneke gained control of the Browncoats forum, which he and his fellow gov then began remodeling to use as their own forum. They changed their minds about this, then Veneke began demasking former Browncoats whom he has personal disagreements with (generally everyone). He has since shut the forum down to prevent the legitimate Browncoats from having any access to their heritage. In addition, he refuses to hand over the Browncoats IRC channel. Just weeks ago, Veneke continued his feverish bloodfeud with Browncoats by accepting spied intel from their MoD. He then declared pre-emptive aggressive war on Browncoats because they committed the unthinkable crime of voting on whether or not to upgrade their treaty with Cult of Justitia. The manipulator Veneke claimed ignorance and absence, forcing his second in command, Kodiak, to "fall on his sword like a good boy." He [b][i]played[/i][/b] Nueva Vida into using their muscle to save his sorry hide. Huh, he hasn't got anyone to save him this time. See now: Mechanus, his one-time friend and co-founder of 57th Overlanders, has left 57th for GLoF. Because, as I mentioned above, Veneke doesn't know how to treat or speak to people, some followed Mechanus to GLoF, while many others left 57th for other AAs. Veneke is, far from respectable, an egomaniacal control-freak obsessed with tyrannical micro-management. He talks a smooth game in embassies, but he repulses his own membership at every post. This was seen in the runup to the TPF War; After Veneke took the helm, 57th lost nearly 20% of its membership in 1 week, dropping from just over 50 members to just under 40. He has every motive to pursue "the other traitors" which are referenced in the screenshot given to GLoF; [u]it is his nature[/u]. It may well be true that both GLoF and Veneke have been played. 57th's history has garnered it a thick roster of enemies. But the notion that Veneke is anything but a snake in the grass is laughable; such an opinion makes anyone that holds it a pitiable sod indeed. [quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='14 February 2010 - 12:53 PM' timestamp='1266170036' post='2180909'] Welcome to politics. Fact of the matter is, 57th was your ally. You treated your ally like they were not even worth a damn to you, and it shows through the government and the membership. 57th deserved better than this, especially from someone they considered a friend. [/quote] GLoF has evidence in hand, and credits it, that 57th was actively plotting to exact revenge on former Overlanders now residing in GLoF, and had already done it on one such ruler. That is an aggressive act of war; the war was already on, GLoF jsut didn't know it. The natural evolution of an attack is a counter-attack, and that is just what GLoF has done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The FSM Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 Hello Schatt, its been awhile. There is a great deal said in your post, much of which is fueled by the far from friendly history you and Veneke have had dating back to Browncoats days. Is Veneke the posterchild of the moralist crusaders who have been running around this planet of late? No, far from it. However, unless I am completely inept at knowing people I consider my friends, Veneke is a man who holds allies and treaties in very high regard. He holds them in such high regard that some would say it is a fault. I am well aware of the feud that exists between members of the new BC and Veneke, and while I think things have been handled poorly on that front I dont think they have much relevance to this discussion here. The information that was provided to 57th was done so willingly by a member of BC who had a history with 57th and despite the falling out between he and Veneke, felt compelled to let him know that an attack would have been coming had the TPF War continued. 57th, not being one of the main combatants, had no way of knowing that peace was coming and so their DoW was posted a few short minuted after the war was resolved. Was the 57th-BC war the result of a 'blood feud' as you characterize it? Not as much as you would like it to be. Contrary to the preemptive war that is raging right now, 57th recieved legitimate information from a member of BC, in the form of screenshots and testimonial, that an attack was coming. Having been around the night you, Schatt, coordinated IAA's allies in attacking 57th I recall that there was glee and ecstasy that the hated 57th Overlanders had finally stumbled enough that they could be taken down a peg. But I digress now. The final three paragraphs of you post would seem reasonable if not for the fact that very few people, GLOF included, believe that screenshot to be real at this point. Having spoken to various people on IRC as well as watching the proceedings here, it is quite evident that the screenshot of Veneke conveniently outlining his whole dastardly plan is a forgery. My proof is thus: 1) The spacing between the end of Veneke's dastardly diatribe and his signature does not match with the actual distance between the end of a post and the start of the signature on the 57th's forums. Screenshots have been provided testifying to such in this thread on multiple occasions. 2) The vocabulary and style of writing shown in the alleged Veneke post does not match with the vocabulary and syntax that many members of the community are familiar with him using. Personally, that post was the first time I had ever seen Veneke lapse into dialect and say something like 'spai'd.' 3) The screenshot provided by GLOF in this thread could only have been made in the public (general membership) area of the 57th forums. My reasoning is that if this post had been made in the gov only area of their forums, anyone viewing this post would have the ability to edit said post as that is inherent on invisionfree administrative and moderator masks. Given this, an 'edit' button would be shown in the upper right hand area of the post window next to the two other buttons shown. As there is no such button that means this screenshot was taken by someone with only a basic membership mask on 57th's forums, meaning that the post would have had to have been made there (if it were made at all). As I am sure you are aware from personal experience Schatt, the general membership usually does not take kindly to their government creating secretive plans that get them involved in unwinnable wars or involve lying to allies. If we are to compare the reaction of BC following the 'outing' of BC Gov's plan during the Bubblegum War and the reaction of the 57th general membership now, you will notice that only a handful of members have left (most at the urging of 57th gov to avoid further damage to their nations) and that many general members have come out here to vociferously defend Veneke and 57th against these charges. Had Veneke actually made the post that GLOF alleges then all of 57th would have been able to see it. Unless the general membership of 57th enjoys lying to allies and have been a part of this alleged plot since the begging, I would expect to see a reaction similar to that shown by members of old-BC during the Bubblegum War As you say yourself Schatt, Veneke has a long list of people who hate him. The funny thing is, quite a few of those people have come out here to defend him and his alliance from these false accusations. The screenshot is fake Schatt, it is a forgery. As much as you are loathe to believe it, Veneke did not orchestrate some plot to fool his allies into ZI'ing their own members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanus Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 [quote name='The Flying Scotsman' date='16 February 2010 - 04:42 PM' timestamp='1266367346' post='2186560'] I am well aware of the feud that exists between members of the new BC and Veneke, and while I think things have been handled poorly on that front I dont think they have much relevance to this discussion here. The information that was provided to 57th was done so willingly by a member of BC who had a history with 57th and despite the falling out between he and Veneke, felt compelled to let him know that an attack would have been coming had the TPF War continued. 57th, not being one of the main combatants, had no way of knowing that peace was coming and so their DoW was posted a few short minuted after the war was resolved. Was the 57th-BC war the result of a 'blood feud' as you characterize it? Not as much as you would like it to be. Contrary to the preemptive war that is raging right now, 57th recieved legitimate information from a member of BC, in the form of screenshots and testimonial, that an attack was coming. [/quote] Just a few things wrong here, FS. I don't remember if you had left HPS or not before this all happened, but Straightupnobull, the person who gave the screenshots from Browncoats to Veneke, left with Ajna and Moufassa to help form FUCN. When they left Veneke branded them traitors to HPS for doing the exact same thing we did when we were in Browncoats, gathering people who were unhappy with the existing government and offering them a chance to start new. Straightupnobull gave screenshots to Veneke within a matter of days of leaving Browncoats to join another alliance. Not sure if he left to join LoSS or rejoin FUCN, but that isn't relevant. What is relevant is why SUNB would choose only a very select section of screenshots and why Veneke would accept screenshots from someone he branded a traitor to himself and the alliance and then act on it. Because it was information on Browncoats. As for the bit about it not being a blood feud, you're wrong there as well. Ask Asriel to share some of the logs that Veneke, Lord Panda, and myself had with him. I'm sure you'll see that you are not as right as you believe. My only regret is not apologising to Asriel sooner after I treated him like some sort of traitor for bringing back Browncoats. People will scream character assassination and the like, but how else do you show behavioural patterns of a person that could very well go to such lengths to create such situations? By providing background information that give you insight into their thinking. Everyone seems to be taking e-lawyer courses nowadays on Planet Bob... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFish Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 [quote name='Mechanus' date='16 February 2010 - 08:17 PM' timestamp='1266369453' post='2186611'] People will scream character assassination and the like, but how else do you show behavioural patterns of a person that could very well go to such lengths to create such situations? By providing background information that give you insight into their thinking. Everyone seems to be taking e-lawyer courses nowadays on Planet Bob... [/quote] The fact of the matter is that you have no proof he did anything, so you're falling back on arguments like "he could have done it!" and "it's the sort of thing he'd do!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanus Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 [quote name='NoFish' date='16 February 2010 - 05:39 PM' timestamp='1266370786' post='2186630'] The fact of the matter is that you have no proof he did anything, so you're falling back on arguments like "he could have done it!" and "it's the sort of thing he'd do!" [/quote] Except for the fact that he and I were into everything from the point of recruiting from within Browncoats to form HPS until the day I retired from the 57th. Considering that he and I were government of Browncoats, HPS, and the 57th, I'd say I have much more knowledge than anyone else here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The FSM Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 [quote name='Mechanus' date='16 February 2010 - 08:17 PM' timestamp='1266369453' post='2186611'] Just a few things wrong here, FS. I don't remember if you had left HPS or not before this all happened, but Straightupnobull, the person who gave the screenshots from Browncoats to Veneke, left with Ajna and Moufassa to help form FUCN. When they left Veneke branded them traitors to HPS for doing the exact same thing we did when we were in Browncoats, gathering people who were unhappy with the existing government and offering them a chance to start new. Straightupnobull gave screenshots to Veneke within a matter of days of leaving Browncoats to join another alliance. Not sure if he left to join LoSS or rejoin FUCN, but that isn't relevant. What is relevant is why SUNB would choose only a very select section of screenshots and why Veneke would accept screenshots from someone he branded a traitor to himself and the alliance and then act on it. Because it was information on Browncoats. As for the bit about it not being a blood feud, you're wrong there as well. Ask Asriel to share some of the logs that Veneke, Lord Panda, and myself had with him. I'm sure you'll see that you are not as right as you believe. My only regret is not apologising to Asriel sooner after I treated him like some sort of traitor for bringing back Browncoats. People will scream character assassination and the like, but how else do you show behavioural patterns of a person that could very well go to such lengths to create such situations? By providing background information that give you insight into their thinking. Everyone seems to be taking e-lawyer courses nowadays on Planet Bob... [/quote] I left HPS the day after SUNB, Ajna and M did. I was well aware of what was going on when they left and it was the treatment they received that played into my decision to leave the next day rather than the next week as I had originally told you or Veneke (I forget who). I will grant you that I was not in 57th when SUNB gave Veneke those screenshots and I do not know the conversation that went on between them when the screenshots were exchanged. However, what self respecting alliance leader would not have accepted screenshots showing another alliance was in the middle of voting to go to war with you. Apologies, I didnt intend to say that there was no blood feud between Veneke and the founders of the new BC, Ive talked with Asriel and Veneke, and yourself as well, about this in the past. My intention with that passage was to point out that while there was a blood feud there the 57th had a legitimate reason to go to war with BC when they did. As I said earlier, I have always noticed Veneke to be a man who puts great stock in upholding his treaties. I do not believe that Veneke has so radically changed that he would have attempted to lie and deceive GLOF into booting you and Iyeman so that Veneke could ZI you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 (edited) Scotsman, while you've done it eloquently, you have nonetheless missed the point of my reply. I have not spoken to the credibility of the screenshots at all, but you have responded to me with a recap of the arguments against the screenshots. The crux of what I said is here: [quote name='Schattenmann' date='16 February 2010 - 06:26 PM' timestamp='1266362804' post='2186416'] It may well be true that both GLoF and Veneke have been played. 57th's history has garnered it a thick roster of enemies. But the notion that Veneke is anything but a snake in the grass is laughable; such an opinion makes anyone that holds it a pitiable sod indeed. [/quote] I am incensed by the character testimonials on behalf of Veneke. They are false, and they are offered, as I said, by people who have aided him in his multiple feuds and schemes over the years and even last month when he engaged in a (as you labeled it) "justifiable" war against an alliance because it was debating a treaty upgrade. [list]So, I will reiterate: [*]Veneke is in no shape, way, or form respectable; his style is that of a jackal. [*]I'm staying clear of the 'shop debate. They may all be forgeries, they may all be real, they may be a mix. I wouldn't be surprised if the IP shots were faked by Veneke, and the Veneke speech was in turn a recreation of what the provider knew to be true but had not actual screenshot of. [*]Neither my personal giddiness--and that's what it was--that our [i]projected[/i] target in the TPF War was 57th, nor my personal distaste for a distasteful man has any effect on the truth of my analysis, as confirmed by Mechanus (who has as much dislike for me as I have 57th) it only effects the tone. [/list] Edited February 17, 2010 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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