An Echelon Announcement

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Tarikmo' date='31 January 2010 - 10:09 AM' timestamp='1264954180' post='2147683']
They agreed to a permanent term, I don't see the reason why you should agree to a permanent term, just to repeal it later. That is dishonorable by my standards.

If all parties that imposed terms agree to take off the term, then it's fine.
edit: Saw the post above me
[/quote]

Saw it too. Anyways...its nonsense to enforce an ongoing term. Those that do it are just asking for wait for it wait for it KARMA.

[quote name='astronaut jones' date='31 January 2010 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1264953867' post='2147669']
If it were MK's job to repeal such a term, you certainly did not give them time to do it, IF it were their job. And IF it were their job, and if you had bothered to ask, it possibly would have been done by now.

Instead, echelon chose the coward's way out.
[/quote]

Its THEIR alliance. If as Airmee pointed out, the NPO had not removed it then I would still see it as the responsibility of an alliance leader to shed terms that are only meant to keep an alliance down. Reparations in tech and whatnot are one thing. Terms on alliance policy and government is a very different story. Reparations end, trying to force eternal terms in a way do not until the alliance has the courage to shed itself of those terms.

[Tarikmo]

[quote name='Fernando12' date='31 January 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1264954643' post='2147697']
Saw it too. Anyways...its nonsense to enforce an ongoing term. Those that do it are just asking for wait for it wait for it KARMA.



Its THEIR alliance. If as Airmee pointed out, the NPO had not removed it then I would still see it as the responsibility of an alliance leader to shed terms that are only meant to keep an alliance down. Reparations in tech and whatnot are one thing. Terms on alliance policy and government is a very different story. Reparations end, trying to force eternal terms in a way do not until the alliance has the courage to shed itself of those terms.
[/quote]
No, terms are terms, if Echelon didn't like it in the first place, they didn't have to accept it, but no, they did, so they must abide by them.

[Alterego]

[quote name='astronaut jones' date='31 January 2010 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1264954003' post='2147677']
I'm just not going to interact with you further at this point. You're not worth my time.
[/quote]
I accept this as your admission of defeat and acknowledgment that you support any & all eternal terms.

[Emperor Khan]

Is this actually an issue? Is caffine1 a member of the Echelon government?

Until that happens there is no issue.

[astronaut jones]

[quote name='Fernando12' date='31 January 2010 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1264954643' post='2147697']
Saw it too. Anyways...its nonsense to enforce an ongoing term. Those that do it are just asking for wait for it wait for it KARMA.



Its THEIR alliance. If as Airmee pointed out, the NPO had not removed it then I would still see it as the responsibility of an alliance leader to shed terms that are only meant to keep an alliance down. Reparations in tech and whatnot are one thing. Terms on alliance policy and government is a very different story. Reparations end, trying to force eternal terms in a way do not until the alliance has the courage to shed itself of those terms.
[/quote]

I think you and everyone else, especially those less intelligent here, which you are not one of (which is good) are assuming things about what I have said, that just aren't true, partly because I haven't addressed them. I don't think it's bad to throw off peace terms, if that is what you're truly wanting to do, just be truthful about it, as the terms they are throwing off were terms that they willingly, as a sovereign alliance, accepted. They were not forced upon them, they did not have to accept those terms, but they did.

What I have an issue with is the timing. One member of echelon already said it was opportunistic, which is great, I love honesty, but it is also cowardly to do it now when the alliances that were ensuring they complied to their terms are fighting wars of their own. And it is cowardly, no way around it.

I said in my very first post, I would support this, if it were not done at this time. It is opportunistic and cowardly to do it now. Simple as that.

[astronaut jones]

[quote name='Alterego' date='31 January 2010 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1264954786' post='2147700']
I accept this as your admission of defeat and acknowledgment that you support any & all eternal terms.
[/quote]

... you couldn't be further from the truth.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Tarikmo' date='31 January 2010 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1264954754' post='2147699']
No, terms are terms, if Echelon didn't like it in the first place, they didn't have to accept it, but no, they did, so they must abide by them.
[/quote]

We won't agree on this point and if you read back to the first page I've stated why over and over again. Next.

[Tarikmo]

[quote name='Fernando12' date='31 January 2010 - 12:53 PM' timestamp='1264955023' post='2147711']
We won't agree on this point and if you read back to the first page I've stated why over and over again. Next.
[/quote]
Same here, I can't stand circles.

[Il Impero Romano]

Not saying I agree with the term (I don't, clearly was a stupid term), but you know you wouldn't be doing this unless you thought that it was reasonable to conclude that new surrender terms would be on horizon anyway, so acting tough seems pretty lame.

[avernite]

I didn't think it was dishonourable when LUE did it in GW3, either.

You do what you gotta do. And for all the enemies: if you don't like Echelon and think Caffine is a bad leader, wouldn't you want him IN government?

[Mathias]

Yes the term was terrible, but waiting until all of the people enforcing it were in a war doesn't look good. I'm sure you could have went to those enforcing it and asked for it to be removed. And as far as the constitution thing goes, the people who signed the terms are the ones in violation. I assume they're being punished for such a heinous offense.

I don't get why you'd want Tela and Caffine back anyway, but since it's apparent that you do, you could have gone about this in a much better way.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Mathias

[lonewolfe2015]

Those terms are outdated, overly harsh, and destroy the spirit of your alliance.

That's all that really needs to be known and I can't see why people would have issues with you changing it.

[Caffine]

I suppose I have a few things to say here.

First of all, it is things like this that make me proud to be part of Echelon. I did not ask my alliance to do this, yet I stand firmly behind it. One of the basic instincts of human nature is to do whatever it takes to survive. Echelon accepted the peace terms in order to do just that. I'm not going to dig up old issues, however when I left Echelon it wasn't out of fear. I had gotten word of my presence making things worse for Echelon, something which was later confirmed.

[quote][17:52] <KaitlinK[MA]> It is my understanding that Caffine is no longer a member of Echelon contrary to what his AA says
01[17:53] <El_Hefe[Echelon]> yeah
[17:53] <KaitlinK[MA]> To be frank that has an impact on what terms I had seen being initially passed around[/quote]

When I returned to Echelon, I did so with the full understanding that it was my responsiblity to not repeat past mistakes. Moral relativism makes the issue of looking back into the past and judging difficult. However I can say that Back in my "prime" as you could call it, I handled issues far too aggressively. One of my fellow alliance members said it best "[i]to be able to strike up a good deal with somebody who has a weaker hand is the true test of diplomacy[/i]." I could not agree more with this statement. Since I have returned to Echelon, I have worked very hard to help as much as I possibly could. I knew very well that I could not return to government, and that our alliance was in the position that it was in partly as a result of my actions. Therefore I helped out where I could, occasionally advising on Foreign Affairs issues and rediscovering my first love, Intel. Now that the limitation has been lifted, I once again have the ability to step up to help out my alliance. RL issues prevent me from serving in the legislative body in Echelon (although to be quite honest that was never for me anyway), although you may see me now and again within Echelon's ministries, probably as a deputy somewhere. Although I did not ask for this honor of being able to serve again, I do accept it and will help wherever help is needed. I firmly believe that the days of harsh and permenant surrender terms are over, and were never in the best interest of the community.

As a final note, a few months ago I set about trying to end any grudges I had in the past with people. A great man, and my former mentor RossGarner once said to me "[i]Before you seek revenge, first dig two graves[/i]" (Yes, I know he was not the first person to say that). While it took me a long time to fully understand the breadth of this statement, it has become one of my favorite quotes. Revenge and grudges serve little purpose, and although it may make you feel better, it very rarely is beneficial to those around you, and often has a negative effect on those you care about.

In closing, I would like to once again thank my alliance for allowing me the honor of being at its service. This issue here is larger than me. It is about the right of an alliance to govern itself. I would also like to state that I hold no ill will towards anybody out there, and actually hope to become friendly with those who I in the past called rivals. You can always find me in our channel and I hope to work with each and every one of you to make Planet Bob a better place.

Thank you,
-Caffine

Edited January 31, 2010 by Caffine1

[Sephiroth]

Good luck with this, some of the terms given in the Karma War were pretty bad and pointless.

[Shafer]

[quote name='Otherworld' date='31 January 2010 - 10:34 AM' timestamp='1264952084' post='2147594']
Wait.. how is it that we are cowards? Making the most of an opportunity.. on cybernations? How dare we.

But yes.. you're right, we're so cowardly.. I mean it's not like we got that term in the first place by declaring war on about 14 alliances in defence of an ally is it. No wait... it was.
[/quote]
After you originally tried to abandon Pacifica and then when you saw the political backlash you then declared war.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='Shafer' date='31 January 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1264960154' post='2147857']
After you originally tried to abandon Pacifica and then when you saw the political backlash you then declared war.
[/quote]

You seem to have a far better understanding situation then those of us who we're actually there. Sarcasm aside, the person who made the decision to cancel the NPO treaty is no longer with us, and the person who posted this announcement was the very person who posted our declaration of war not three hours after the cancellation. When you consider that we were the first alliance to declare in defense of NPO (well, excluding a one-man alliance) and among the very last to leave, I think your time would be better spent making arguments that actually make sense.

edit: acronym fail.

Edited January 31, 2010 by memoryproblems

[Delta1212]

Guys, Caffine has been acting as gov for months now. We know. It's been brought up several times. We more or less figured that having Caffine acting as gov was punishment enough. No one who actually gave a !@#$ about that term is still gov in any of the alliances you surrendered to (That wasn't Xiph's term despite how much you rage at him).

This is kind of annoying though.

[Stumpy Jung Il]

The term was stupid and god awful anyway.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Caffine1' date='31 January 2010 - 05:39 PM' timestamp='1264959571' post='2147840']
I suppose I have a few things to say here.

First of all, it is things like this that make me proud to be part of Echelon. I did not ask my alliance to do this, yet I stand firmly behind it. One of the basic instincts of human nature is to do whatever it takes to survive. Echelon accepted the peace terms in order to do just that. I'm not going to dig up old issues, however when I left Echelon it wasn't out of fear. I had gotten word of my presence making things worse for Echelon, something which was later confirmed.



When I returned to Echelon, I did so with the full understanding that it was my responsiblity to not repeat past mistakes. Moral relativism makes the issue of looking back into the past and judging difficult. However I can say that Back in my "prime" as you could call it, I handled issues far too aggressively. One of my fellow alliance members said it best "[i]to be able to strike up a good deal with somebody who has a weaker hand[/i] is the true test of diplomacy." I could not agree more with this statement. Since I have returned to Echelon, I have worked very hard to help as much as I possibly could. I knew very well that I could not return to government, and that our alliance was in the position that it was in partly as a result of my actions. Therefore I helped out where I could, occasionally advising on Foreign Affairs issues and rediscovering my first love, Intel. Now that the limitation has been lifted, I once again have the ability to step up to help out my alliance again. RL issues prevent me from serving in the legislative body in Echelon (although to be quite honest that was never for me anyway), although you may see me now and again within Echelon's ministries, probably as a deputy somewhere. Although I did not ask for this honor of being able to serve again, I do accept it and will help wherever help is needed. I firmly believe that the days of harsh and permenant surrender terms are not in the best interest of the community.

As a final note, a few months ago I set about trying to end any grudges I had in the past with people. A great man, and my former mentor RossGarner once said to me "[i]Before you seek revenge, first dig two graves[/i]" (Yes, I know he was not the first person to say that). While it took me a long time to fully understand the breadth of this statement, it has become one of my favorite quotes. Revenge and grudges serve little purpose, and although it may make you feel better, it very rarely is beneficial to those around you, and often has a negative effect on those you care about.

In closing, I would like to once again thank my alliance for allowing me the honor of being at its service. This issue here is larger than me. It is about the right of an alliance to govern itself. I would also like to state that I hold no ill will towards anybody out there, and actually hope to become friendly with those who I in the past called rivals. You can always find me in our channel and I hope to work with each and every one of you to make Planet Bob a better place.

Thank you,
-Caffine
[/quote]


I'm not a hater of Echelon or a lover, This was a stupid surrender term in the first place. A man who can recognise his faults and change in my eyes is okay. Good luck in your future.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='31 January 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1264960831' post='2147878']
Guys, Caffine has been acting as gov for months now. We know. It's been brought up several times. We more or less figured that having Caffine acting as gov was punishment enough. No one who actually gave a !@#$ about that term is still gov in any of the alliances you surrendered to (That wasn't Xiph's term despite how much you rage at him).

This is kind of annoying though.
[/quote]

I can admit to that much, and it has at times been to our frustration. In Echelon we have 12 positions we consider to be government, and Caffine is not now serving in any of these positions nor has he since July 5th, although at times he has been acting with certain authority provided under the position of advisor, which we do not consider to be Echelon government. This announcement is not one to point that we are violating our terms, its to proclaim that here forth we're opting to ignore that term should the need to appoint Caffine into one of the 12 government positions arise.

Edited January 31, 2010 by memoryproblems

[Delta1212]

You pretty much could have just asked. It's been brought up several times and the only reason it hasn't been removed already is that no one caredd enough to go around and get everyone to sign off at once. Instead, you did this.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='raasaa' date='31 January 2010 - 07:32 AM' timestamp='1264941125' post='2147411']
I believe that Neo Anglia, one of the current directors, signed the surrender terms document, along with the rest of the Echelon Govt at that time....

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=62524

So why the change now...did u wake up today morning and suddenly realize that your charter had an alliance sovereignty clause in it ??

You could have opposed it and had it removed from the surrender terms...you could have made this change a long time back....
[/quote]
Echelon doesn't operate on the level. They never have and never will, why would they do this the right way?

[quote name='HellAngel' date='31 January 2010 - 08:09 AM' timestamp='1264943340' post='2147436']
I never was a fan of clauses that infringed sovereignity of alliances, and while Echelon passively supported such things while being part of the hegemony, i hope they now realized the pain of it and applaud them for their move.
[/quote]
All surrender terms infringe on the sovereignty of alliances. That's why they're surrender terms.

[quote name='HellAngel' date='31 January 2010 - 08:18 AM' timestamp='1264943882' post='2147447']
I was not saying we didnt. Why do people always conclude from a personal opinion to an alliances hypocrisy?
[/quote]
Maybe because you were gov of an involved alliance in the timeframe being discussed? Nah.

[quote name='Emperor Khan' date='31 January 2010 - 11:22 AM' timestamp='1264954970' post='2147704']
Is this actually an issue? Is caffine1 a member of the Echelon government?

Until that happens there is no issue.
[/quote]
lol, what a shortsighted and dumb remark.



Honestly, this thread already deliveres. Watchman, a NADC refugee displaced by the BLEU absolute $@!-stomping which demanded the removal of Charles, rushing to cheer on Echelon. Check. Alterego, international face of BAPS which signed an MADP and changed color spheres to vote for the Senator of the alliance that proclaimed them all PZI during a fabricated war taking this opportunity to Karma bash. Check. All this needs is ChairmanHal stopping by to offer his support to Echelon despite their nightly attempts to roll Browncoats and it'd be the best damn paradox ever.

If all you little farmers-come-footsoldiers in your provincial little leather helmets and grandaddy's muzzle-loader have already forgotten what a Caffine-led Echelon does, acts like, and says, and haven't noticed that Tela has reclaimed her name, never lost her mega!@#$%* grudgeholder persona, and want them both in Echelon as a result of cowardly, opportunistic terms-breaking, then your bodies can burn where they lay bleeding out when Echelon finishes with you.

Atlas! if there's only one thing me and Doitzel still agree on it's how stupid the average ruler is.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Schattenmann

[AirMe]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='31 January 2010 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1264960831' post='2147878']
Guys, Caffine has been acting as gov for months now. We know. It's been brought up several times. We more or less figured that having Caffine acting as gov was punishment enough. No one who actually gave a !@#$ about that term is still gov in any of the alliances you surrendered to (That wasn't Xiph's term despite how much you rage at him).

This is kind of annoying though.
[/quote]

Caffine isn't the great evil you all make him out to be. He was DoFA for Ronin for a short time before his departure. He understands the mistakes he has made in the past.

I don't know why I randomly quoted you Delta, but I am too lazy to delete it so it stays.

[Neo Anglia]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='31 January 2010 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1264960831' post='2147878']
Guys, Caffine has been acting as gov for months now. We know. It's been brought up several times. We more or less figured that having Caffine acting as gov was punishment enough. No one who actually gave a !@#$ about that term is still gov in any of the alliances you surrendered to (That wasn't Xiph's term despite how much you rage at him).

This is kind of annoying though.
[/quote]


[quote name='memoryproblems' date='31 January 2010 - 01:06 PM' timestamp='1264961171' post='2147890']
I can admit to that much, and it has at times been to our frustration. In Echelon we have 12 positions we consider to be government, and Caffine is not now serving in any of these positions nor has he since July 5th, although at times he has been acting with certain authority provided under the position of advisor, which we do not consider to be Echelon government. This announcement is not one to point that we are violating our terms, its to proclaim that here forth we're opting to ignore that term should the need to appoint Caffine into one of the 12 government positions arise.
[/quote]
To expand upon mem's point, he has not been acting [i]as gov[/i], but on behalf of and request of an Active minister or Director. There was always someone there to pull him back if he started getting ahead of himself.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='AirMe' date='31 January 2010 - 01:19 PM' timestamp='1264961972' post='2147924']
Caffine isn't the great evil you all make him out to be. He was DoFA for Ronin for a short time before his departure. He understands the mistakes he has made in the past.

I don't know why I randomly quoted you Delta, but I am too lazy to delete it so it stays.
[/quote]

Caffine certainly does walk a new line; however, outright violation of terms when convenient is not acceptable. The manner in which this was done is indicative of Echelon's continued pre-Karma mentality even if Caffine has moved on.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Schattenmann