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The Second Front


deth2munkies

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While I disagree with what TOP decided to do during this and how they went about doing it, the fact remained they entered this war to support NpO.

NpO knew they were hitting CnG and according to TOP, said they were in it for the long haul. And when the peaces started moving they betrayed people trying to help them. I for one will never trust NpO or Grub. This reminds when The Mafia canceled on Genmay and hit GOONS. Equally !@#$%* move.

Edited by Xavii
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TOP and IRON launched a separate, aggressive war without any justification whatsoever. This is not a case of a flimsy or dubious casus belli, but the complete non-existence of reasoning. This will be treated as an entirely unrelated conflict, and will be reflected as such in the level of destruction wrought within TOP and IRON's nations.

TOP & IRON entered in defence of the NpO and somehow in the confusion the message that the NpO had reached a peace settlement did not reach them until they declared.

Do not attribute to malevolence that which can be explained by other means.

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TOP & IRON entered in defence of the NpO and somehow in the confusion the message that the NpO had reached a peace settlement did not reach them until they declared.

Do not attribute to malevolence that which can be explained by other means.

When it looks like it, feels like it, tastes like it, you call it what it is.

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In an ideal world, TOP/IRON would 'surrender' with a term of apologising for needlessly opening up a new front. (It's clearly a new front, but it isn't really a new war; this obviously wouldn't have happened without the pre-existing war, and TOP reference NpO directly in the DoW.)

However, with the bad blood between C&G and these two alliances, that's obviously unlikely. What will happen is that C&G will realise that TOP is a tougher nut than they thought, and after 8000 nukes have been thrown around, then we will see the agreement above, with both sides weakened. IRON, being much less strong than TOP, are probably going to get rolled hard and tough terms, again because of pre-existing dislike.

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I'm copying my reaction from another thread.

TOP & Co. made a very, very bad opportunistic decision.

And unlike in the banking industry, they do have consequences on planet Bob.

By pre-emptively attacking CnG they stepped into water that might be to deep for them.

If you decide to strike an alliance pre-emptively you take a big risk, and you better live with the consequences.

I hope they give you hell and you put up a good fight.

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TOP & IRON entered in defence of the NpO and somehow in the confusion the message that the NpO had reached a peace settlement did not reach them until they declared.

Do not attribute to malevolence that which can be explained by other means.

I wonder if NpO were in war with CnG when TOP & IRON supposedly raised in defense of NpO ?

you say it as such if NpO was approved preemptive declaration of war on some neutral nations ?

by the way it's 2nd paragraph of TOP declaration of war against CnG

To our opponents: We agree with the New Polar Order's reasons for war against \m/, and we consider ourselves part of that particular side of the war. For our part, however, much our reason to enter this war lies in our desire to defeat those who have shown time and time again, in public and in private, that doing harm to us is high on their agenda---and that, indeed, they would take advantage of any advantageous opportunity to do so. This is a war they have brought upon themselves.

I think the reason of war is completely clear .

and I think all of their alliance signed it

Signed,

Crymson, Grandmaster, 1/3 of the Holy Trinity, stukach hunter

SkyGreenChick, Grand Hospitaller, first female Council member, the holder of the official Order's whip, and accidental 1/3rd of the current Holy Trinity

Feanor, Grand Chancellor, 1/3rd of the Holy Trinity, and the Sword of Johan

GuardianofNewbs, Grand Legate, Paradoxian.

Tushar Dhoot, Grand Treasurer, Economic Mastermind and Winner of Wars.

ChaosTheory, Grand Defender, defender of e-honor, pixels and all things moral on internet text-games

Berith, Grand Inductor, The Singularity

HellAngel, Councilor-at-Large, the man without fancy names

Craven, Heptagon Alderman, Immortal Emperor of the Land of Lightning and Proud Member of TOP "This is the part where you bow to me and tell me how handsome I am"

mitchh, Heptagon Alderman, Champion Hospitaller First Class, liker long walks on beaches

Zebedee, Heptagon Alderman, Paradoxian.

Tex, Heptagon Alderman, master of texas, slayer of kings, harbinger of fine women and alcohols.

Bodvar Jarl, Heptagon Alderman, buzz killer

Crazy Canuck, Heptagon Alderman, reincarnated soul of TOP.

Timberland, Heptagon Alderman, wearer of the mud hole stomping boots.

aaannndddyyy, destroyer of pixels, grave dancer (hi ES), worshiper of the platypus, infra loving paradoxian til death.

AAlumni, Super Genius, Chess Master, Evil Spock and all-around good guy

Aesis, Grand Defender of the Order Emeritus, Militant 2nd Class

AFI, Follower of Johan

Ajaxpenny, Rememberer of the Past and Catalyst of the Future

alpreb, High Champion of the Order, Historian of the Order

Armutso, LF1 night stands, General Assembly, Member of TOP.

AvengerNL, village idiot

Avernite, Queen Mother QM.gif

aznjons, Patrician of AnkhMorpork, TAFKA The Viridian Lightning, Proud Paradoxian

BadBoyBill signing another dang DOW still miffed about the last signing for a non war this better be a real war this time or maybe I'll just refuse to use any punctuation in my sentence structure from here on out and see just how many lines of text that I can write in a cohesive manner before you stop reading because the amount of frustration you feel for not having a period or comma or even an exclamation so that you can't even take a breath while your reading this and if you have made it this far my fellow warriors well for Christ sakes put a rock in your crack pipe and fire in the hole:)

Baron Watkin deSandersted, City State of Alisaunder, Orange Team, The Order of the Paradox

Basharious; Knight Commander, Militant 1st Class. Paradoxia's one man band.

Batman, Who the **** do you think I am

Benevlan, what is this I don't even, Member of GA, Knight Hospitaller

Blue Lightning - This alliance signature thing is stupid. I mean, legally speaking, don't we sign everything we do with the Council's signature serving as that of the alliance anyway? I for one am not signing this gobbledegook. Also Hello.

BudLight, who traded away his soul with his V-card, tactless and unbridled, yet somehow refined and tasteful. Also smaller than most of TOP's ghosts.

Buller, the blunt, general cool guy.

Bunka, ready to die by command!

Caliper, Grand Purveyor of Cheese

Carl the Conqueror, Lord of Inactivity, Master of the Airwaves, Wrath of the 3rd Chapter

Casey, resident cookiemonger and member of the 6th brigade

Celial, The Greatest Bobo of GreatBobonistan

Consul of Monkeys, lover of baked beans on toast, paradoxian forever.

Crispy, Unknown.

Croix, The French-Pole, bane of microalliances everywhere, No I'm not Adrian La Croix, and my name is pronounced French. Not Crocks, D:

CrossOfMight, Holy Warrior, 5th brigade slacker , Member of TOP

Daedalus, High Champion of The Order of the Paradox.

Decrepdsol, Harbinger of Destruction, TOP 3rd Brigade

Deus, better the paradox of ZI than tyranny of evil.

DougZ37 - Master of Traps - Man of the Night

DukeWilliam, Partaker in elaborate list signings.

EngineerSean, spy, nuclear rogue, and thief

ewatk432, [insert witty, yet thoughtful, but still forceful nickname here]

Extremelyaverage--The TRUE order Of the Paradox--Champion of Words, Speaker of Truth, and The Best Qualitative Researcher in the Game.

Feanor, Grand Chancellor of the Order, 1/3rd of the Holy Trinity and the Sword of Johan.

Fighter26, Minister of foreign duck and llama affairs

floridamcmarion1, TOP embalmer in residence

Friar, ruler of Taiga. 7th Brigade toppatriot.gif

Frydchikn, Good with hotsauce, Better with beer, Best in TOP

Fulgrim, Scion of Chemos, Lord of the Lurkers, Bearer of Furstenburg and other Pilsners of exceptional quality, Originator of the Ponzi Scheme.

Hagar, Grand Defender of all Paradoxians playing CORE for Hearts of Iron, TOP member till death

harmoxe, an unnecessary load on the server.

Hasin, Champion of the Sun, Master of Karate

Hayzell, Twilight Vanquisher, Champion Millitant, 2nd Class, 5th Brigade Commander

Hepokatti, Turhanpäiväinen juntti Suomesta, Stat collector, Proud member of TOP

Herbert, The Herbe-Fox, superduper fantastico almighty goodness-in-a-bottle not-to-be-denied 6th man.

His Holiness Josh F, Greater then you on all levels, Loyal member of TOP

Ice, The Peace Mode Guy, sleep.gif

Incognito, proud member of TOP

Inferno of Ariana, Keeper of the Fingerspitzengefuhl, Shaman, Dark Grämling Revolutionary

Ivegottheskill, Gentleman and Scholar, Infra Hugger 1st Class, Bringer of Nuclear Anarchy, He Who Stole the Cookie from the Cookie Jar, Well Liked by Animals

jaaku - dark gatekeeper, dude who sometimes says stuff, and total %*$#bag

Janosik, Praefectus, Decrepit Chaptermaster, Madman, on run from authorities O.O

Jayne Cobb - Hero of Canton, Manticore X5-494, Champion of the ruttin' Mudders

Jenko, Tech Whore, Infra Hugger and Hander of @#$%.

Jhovozhymeh, Shameless Whovian, Part Time Lurker, Proud Paradoxian

Jinnai, Pure Evil Genius

Joe Kremlin, Observer of Wars, Knight Hospitaller, TOP Member

Kaiser, Fine Gentleman and Bum of the Order

Kantenbauer: also Bob

Keith AbelaWadge of Msida, member of TOP, from the small country in the Mediterranean, MALTA

Keresztes, red cross, Member of TOP, Tsar and Autocrat of all the Sapins, Grand Duke of the Balkan Alps, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera

Kiss Goodbye, Knight Concilliator, Voice of Reason unheard

Kommie, TOP Member Since: Aug 28 2006

Kongo, Kongo

Kuzuryusen, Tech is Delicious.

LiquidMercury, Wrath of Karma, Destroyer of Worlds, Tech Whore, TOP MEMBER

Locke, Dancer of the Eternal Flame

Maladieshie, Defender of the peace pipe, Raider of the cookie jar, In hoc signo vinces.

Manwell, God amongst amoebas, professional tonka truck driver, English herbsman

Master Splinter, occasional poster, founder of Bunkaism, Immortal of the Eighth Chapter, that one guy... with the rat picture, yeah that one

Minarchist--Harbinger of Johan in the Cyberverse

Mongrel, biting your leg after urinating on your carpet.

Monkeydee, Actively Retired, Forever Virgin.

Mortale, Prutser and Congratulations you made it this far now go read the rest.

MrCyber, Bringer of Death and Destruction, Master of the Skies, Ruler of the Seas.

Murmurandus the Slow...

necAnt, King of Ants, Leader of MTftA (More Tech For The Ants), TOP-Member

NorthernLights, The Midnight Toker, the noodle knocker, that guy coming for your jewels & ATX banga

Offler, Mr. Mom, part time internet Smart $@!

Ojiras Ajeridas, almost intelligent, almost scary, completely TOP

Pike, Cannon fodder, Proud member of TOP

Pino

Ponken, Artist of the Order and King of the Sea

President Obama, infra hugger and member of The Order of The Paradox

Pseudodragon, Freeloading Oldtimer

Rector, Champion Hospitaller, Tech Repo Specialist

romanfool, Stat Collector, Coward, Useless Ally, Member of the Order of the Paradox

ROMMEL_HSQ, of Palestine4ever, ex-Heptagon alderman, Emperor of TOP and FOK, double spy for TOP and Gremlins, bringer of cute females, Brigade Commander of the 1st Brigade

Ruphus Elderbeer, Guard Dog of TOP. WOOF!

Saber, El Diablo, High Priest of Saberites, Holy Trinity Member, Resident Worf, Manticoran and last of the Desert Rats!

Sadinoelus, Connoisseur of needlessly over-elaborate deathtraps and, should that fail, shooting people in the face

Salajol, Grand Defender Emeritus of the Order, Militant 2nd Class, and consumer of oversized burritos.

SanderP, kicking your gf for $10 and a bag of cheetos.

Shardoon, Oldtown, Arient

Shadawg, masticator of infra, solver of problems , proud TOP foot soldier

Simon De Montfort, Minister of Silly Films

SomeGuy, still sleeping.

Sodom Gomorrah, Heptagon Alderman and Champion Hospitallier of Paradoxia, Highlord of the Northern realms.

Spacehusky, Firer of Missiles

I, Strahd von Zarovich, Darklord of Barovia and Manticore

Suicidal4289- Reaper of my enemies, and follower of the platypus

TailsK, The Two Tailed, Cunning Like A Fox, Aid System Extraordinaire, Paradoxian.

talin, Finally

tekken, 1337 lurker, in for the kill, TOP member

Telchar, :smug:

TheHighExalted, mostly inactive, but not inactive enough to save you.

THUNDER-X, Twister of Fate, Pope of Chilitown, and master of Simpsons Trivia

TonytheTiger, a Proud Paradoxian Nation.

tripp_trap, nostalgia guardian extraordinaire, commissar of the 9th chapter, ghost of the Golden Hall.

Tyon, Member of TOP, Boss of Outer-Heaven and loveable tree hugger.

Uncle Bryan of Left Out. Yes, I am old enough to be your uncle, and have been playing strategy games since before you were born

Unspeakable Evil: Paradoxical Minister of Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics; Stats Collector Prime

Urmom, Officer of the Damned, Master of the Swarm

V The King, Paradoxian Footballer Extraordinaire, also a headbanger (\m/ >_< \m/) and very very unjust towards his enemies

Viceä, Lord of Flies, member of paradox.

Vladimir Stukov, Knight Commander, Grand Defender Emeritus of the Order, Militant 2nd Class

WalkerNinja, The Mad Titan, Death's Consort, Bearer of the Infinity Gauntlet

Xcruciate - Collector of Caffeine, Hoarder of Half and Half, Scavenger of Sugar, Primed to pour scalding liquid on all those that oppose.

Yalaria. Emperor of the western seas and Lord of the knitting circle. Paradoxian.

Yir Yoronti, teh Sausage Man, High priest of the temple of Timberland and ebil overlord of the Grey Knights

And everyone else...

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and look at Iron & Dawn , They seems declared War Against CnG for the sake of Fun Of it , no reason no nothing Just for the sake of Making a DoW .

Offical Dispatch from the Independent Republic of Orange Nations

<Lando[Athens]> well guys.

<Londo[Athens]> don't dissapoint me.

<Londo[Athens]> when I wake up I expect to see a DoW.

<Londo[Athens]> THE TROLLING WILL CONTINUE

<Londo[Athens]> UNTIL IRON ACTUALLY DOWS

ask and you shall recieve, to further improve community standards, fight trolling, IRON and DAWN hereby declare war against CnG

signed for the Independent Republic of Orange Nations

FinsterBaby, President

DVDCCHN, Secretary of State, IRON Councilor

Delgursh, Deputy Secretary of State, IRON Councilor

Shanenshah, Deputy Secretary of State, IRON Councilor

MCRABT, Minister of Defense, IRON Councilor

Matt Miller, Minister of the Vault, IRON Councilor

Krash, Minister of Labor, IRON Councilor

bay102174, Minister of Tables, IRON Councilor

Sighned for the Democratic Allaince of wise Nations

Booter, Triumvir

Frannie, Triumvir

Shilo, Triumvir

Golan1st, Coordinator of Diplomacy

amad123, Coordinator of War

This post has been edited by dvdcchn: Today, 08:25 AM

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TOP & IRON entered in defence of the NpO and somehow in the confusion the message that the NpO had reached a peace settlement did not reach them until they declared.

Do not attribute to malevolence that which can be explained by other means.

Did you read the TOP DoW?

For our part, however, much our reason to enter this war lies in our desire to defeat those who have shown time and time again, in public and in private, that doing harm to us is high on their agenda---and that, indeed, they would take advantage of any advantageous opportunity to do so. This is a war they have brought upon themselves.

It's basically "we think C&G is a threat and now is a good time to attack them". I think C&G would be stupid to just let them walk away after showing their cards like that.

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and look at Torn they practically attacked CnG without any declaration of war. in fact they declared war but on whom ?

TORN Announcement

Translation: Today The Order of Righteous Nations marches to war. We do so standing shoulder to shoulder with our brothers in the Duckroll Project. It is our great honor to fight and die by their side once more. Our nations will together fight with a single purpose and with an unwaivering resolve. United we are strong, united we will win. We're coming for you.

/s/

Bigwoody, Dear Leader

SinisterCanuck, Triumvir of War

Lord Curzon, Triumvir of Foreign Affairs

DDEShare, Triumvir of Internal Affairs

Hilowe, TORN Representative

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i don´t know which of the options will happen or should happen, as this lies within the eye of the beholder,

but what i know is, that those 10k (?) nukes both sides have combined, will make an sweet little soft reset for the game.

So how high was GRL in karma again?

MK, TOP and IRON alone have more than 10k. This is probably well over 20k at this point.

In an ideal world, TOP/IRON would 'surrender' with a term of apologising for needlessly opening up a new front. (It's clearly a new front, but it isn't really a new war; this obviously wouldn't have happened without the pre-existing war, and TOP reference NpO directly in the DoW.)

However, with the bad blood between C&G and these two alliances, that's obviously unlikely. What will happen is that C&G will realise that TOP is a tougher nut than they thought, and after 8000 nukes have been thrown around, then we will see the agreement above, with both sides weakened. IRON, being much less strong than TOP, are probably going to get rolled hard and tough terms, again because of pre-existing dislike.

I don't think either side wants this one to end any time soon. This is going to be fun as hell.

Edited by flak attack
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While I disagree with what TOP decided to do during this and how they went about doing it, the fact remained they entered this war to support NpO.

NpO knew they were hitting CnG and according to TOP, said they were in it for the long haul. And when the peaces started moving they betrayed people trying to help them. I for one will never trust NpO or Grub. This reminds when The Mafia canceled on Genmay and hit GOONS. Equally !@#$%* move.

wait, why won't you trust NpO or Grub? the plan from what i have heard was never to pre-emptively strike CnG, it was to wait until CnG entered the war, then hit them. seems you just want to hate on Polaris/Grub some more despite most other posts including the DoWs from TOP/IRON/DAWN/TORN stating that they hit because they wanted to, not because of Polaris telling them too.

as for the Peace between Polaris/\m/, even CSM stated that peace was reached when TOP/IRON/TORN/DAWN DoWed. so how could Polaris possibly tell TOP/Co prior to their DoWs that peace had been reached? most people, even those not involved in the talks, knew that peace talks were already underway between \m/ and Polaris, this is reflected in the fact that a couple of days ago, Grub stated he was willing to make a concession to \m/ about not being the "sole authority on community standards".

so i suggest you get off your high horse and look at the facts. the reason this is treated as a separate war is what was written in the DoWs, which may have mentioned NpO, but also gave a completely separate reason for entering the war as they did.

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I'm a little torn on this one. I like the idea of ODN and TOP fighting to the death. Part of me wants to see TOP win somehow for this, even if it means escalating the whole world into this conflict. But then again, I'd just like to have a spitball fight with Electron Sponge using 100 franco bills. (which admittedly aren't worth much these days, with the post-Karma War downturn in the Pacifican economy and all)

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Ah well i guess we played right into your hands, but its not like it would have ended up any differently if we just waited for everyone to come in. Why did i know in advance Aircastle was coming for us and Sparta for IRON? Yes. Lolpsec.

We just didnt follow the treaty party line.

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Don't care.

TOP and their allies saw a threat in CnG and moved to eliminate them. Probably for good reason. The only question was whether TOP would be countered by CnG in the NpO escalated wars or if they should have struck preemptively. Now we know. Either way, this conflict was going to happen. I don't think NpO did this to "trap" TOP, but I do think once TOP declared, NpO realized their best strategy was to peace out and sit back to watch the world burn down around them.

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TOP & IRON entered in defence of the NpO and somehow in the confusion the message that the NpO had reached a peace settlement did not reach them until they declared.

Do not attribute to malevolence that which can be explained by other means.

In defence of NpO? At what point was Complaints & Grievances ever attacking the New Polar Order, or any of it friends or allies? Or even any of it's war-time allies? The fact of the matter is that TOP and IRON have assembled a minor coalition and aggressively attacked our bloc - a bloc that was entirely uninvolved in any conflict - without provocation or reasoning.

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In defence of NpO? At what point was Complaints & Grievances ever attacking the New Polar Order, or any of it friends or allies? Or even any of it's war-time allies? The fact of the matter is that TOP and IRON have assembled a minor coalition and aggressively attacked our bloc - a bloc that was entirely uninvolved in any conflict - without provocation or reasoning.

It is always impressive to me the extent to which the human mind can ignore reality in an effort to maintain its own beliefs, no matter how clearly irrational or ignorant those beliefs may be.

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Opening up the C&G front was a pretty audacious move, speaking in my mind to how the "Polar side" saw this war going. Would this have tipped the scale towards Polar's long-term benefit I can't say, but the fact that they peaced out their front after this front got geared up and going leaves us with another lopsided war. I agree with Bob Janova though, the amount of damage that TOP and Co is going to deliver should seriously open some eyes.

Edited by eyriq
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In defence of NpO? At what point was Complaints & Grievances ever attacking the New Polar Order, or any of it friends or allies? Or even any of it's war-time allies? The fact of the matter is that TOP and IRON have assembled a minor coalition and aggressively attacked our bloc - a bloc that was entirely uninvolved in any conflict - without provocation or reasoning.

Do you actually think we have no heard this line of propaganda before?

YES, WE KNOW CnG WAS NOT AT WAR WITH NpO. But we all knew that you are lined up to attack us and rather than wait for you to deploy in a manner and way you like, we decided to take the fight to you. Not let you to move forces to peace properly and then deploy when and how you see fit.

We have balls to do so. You can call it stupid or foolish but it doesn't change the fact that we will smack your face in and that I am still not convinced you can defeat us. Prove me wrong.

And please, for love of jesus and all things sacred stop with redundant propaganda. We know CnG was not fighting NpO and that we preempted. We heard your cries of unjust attack on CnG. Now stop it and deal with it. It's not like we can say "Ooops, our bad, war is over".

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In defence of NpO? At what point was Complaints & Grievances ever attacking the New Polar Order, or any of it friends or allies? Or even any of it's war-time allies? The fact of the matter is that TOP and IRON have assembled a minor coalition and aggressively attacked our bloc - a bloc that was entirely uninvolved in any conflict - without provocation or reasoning.

You've extended your party line into a lie there. Several representatives of C&G alliances were involved in planning and other auxiliary parts of the raider coalition. You were not at war but you certainly were involved, and everybody knew that you were very likely to join on that side.

TOP and IRON made a big mistake pre-empting your entrance and allowing you to use this line (that you were not at war), but to claim that you were 'entirely uninvolved' is just not true.

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I notice that in the wiki, http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/TOP-C%26G_War, it's showing that FARK declared on IRON, on the 28th.

But they declared earlier than that - before TOP declared on CnG. They just didn't post to the forums about it, which were down at the time.

Even so, pretending that they declared after TOP declared on CnG is simply wrong.

At least *some* of those fighting on the CnG side of this were already involved in the war, already declaring on those on the TOP/IRON side.

I'm not sure if this is the only example, but it makes me distrustful of the wiki when I see it being obviously twisted to help one side look like the innocent victim.

Edited by Baldr
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