Meet the new Polaris

[Godwin]

I don't see it as a flaw at all. \m/ has the sovereign right to act as it sees fit, just as Polar has the sovereign right to respond as it sees fit.

Yes, it does. The only people who have a problem with that are people who, for whatever reason, aren't in \m/.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Are you talking about your own members Lennox, it would seem so given NSO's recent trend of making lots of threads and then backing down to do nothing.

Hmm.

No.

The NSO (politically speaking = me) has made no threats and failed to follow up on them. In fact, the last alliance that threatened us was called on it and they backed down.

You have no idea how often I am asked/requested not to go to war, because that is what I like to do, by my allies. I really am the salivating Pavlovian dog. When the winds of war blow I get geared up for it. The only reason the NSO isn't at war now is because I am honoring a personal request from my friend, the Emperor of Polar.

The NSO supports war. Peace is a lie. We are not in a constant state of warfare because we also have some measure of respect for our allies, but we keep that number low so that we are not encumbered as some alliances are and scrambling every time a minor disagreement occurs because it will place us into conflicting alignments.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Yes, it does. The only people who have a problem with that are people who, for whatever reason, aren't in \m/.

No, you miss the point. \m/ can do whatever it wants. It can spout off racial slurs in its diplomatic channels and laugh about them to its hearts content. It can "raid" alliances and pretend it isn't an actual war all it wants. Every alliance can do these things if they wish to. Just as others can respond to them through whatever means they feel appropriate.

The right to the actions are not in question. It is the ability to suck it up and accept the consequences that occasionally go with those actions that seems to be the overriding dilemma here.

[Merrie Melodies]

No, you miss the point. \m/ can do whatever it wants. It can spout off racial slurs in its diplomatic channels and laugh about them to its hearts content. It can "raid" alliances and pretend it isn't an actual war all it wants. Every alliance can do these things if they wish to. Just as others can respond to them through whatever means they feel appropriate.

The right to the actions are not in question. It is the ability to suck it up and accept the consequences that occasionally go with those actions that seems to be the overriding dilemma here.

Ivan, I know you are well informed by your good friend and ally Grub, that being said you well know that this war was happening long before a couple of our members made those unfortunate remarks, the whole racial slur issue is just a side show for added bling.

[Merrie Melodies]

Hmm.

No.

The NSO (politically speaking = me) has made no threats and failed to follow up on them. In fact, the last alliance that threatened us was called on it and they backed down.

You have no idea how often I am asked/requested not to go to war, because that is what I like to do, by my allies. I really am the salivating Pavlovian dog. When the winds of war blow I get geared up for it. The only reason the NSO isn't at war now is because I am honoring a personal request from my friend, the Emperor of Polar.

The NSO supports war. Peace is a lie. We are not in a constant state of warfare because we also have some measure of respect for our allies, but we keep that number low so that we are not encumbered as some alliances are and scrambling every time a minor disagreement occurs because it will place us into conflicting alignments.

I do feel for Doppelganger then, if you wont backup your #1 man why even have the position?

[Cakeman32]

On another note, if we are such bad people in \m/ why was Grub so quick to come to our Trium talking peace?

Because Grub believes in giving people chances. Is that a bad thing, nowadays?

[Merrie Melodies]

Because Grub believes in giving people chances. Is that a bad thing, nowadays?

Starting a mythical clock before ever talking to us is not giving chances.

[Ivan Moldavi]

I do feel for Doppelganger then, if you wont backup your #1 man why even have the position?

That shows a general lack of understanding of how most alliances work and a real lack of knowledge on the NSO in particular.

Just because a member of a government makes a statement on the boards that does not inherently mean it is a definitive policy statement unless the person making such a statement is authorized to do so. In an autocratic alliance such as the NSO, the decision to wage offensive war rests with one person, me. So while the ruling party does have pretty broad powers domestically and diplomatically that is one power not afforded them by me so continuing to spout that my contradicting Corinan somehow disregards his authority is incorrect as he never held that authority to begin with and countermanding any such decision actually is within my authority.

[youwish959]

Care to elaborate your belief?

Further This will be my third war with NpO 2 ea in \m/ and 1 ea in FPI, a government member for two of those wars, I think I have a good perspective.

On another note, if we are such bad people in \m/ why was Grub so quick to come to our Trium talking peace?

Not really, but I'll do it cause I <3 you. \m/ has repeatedly tech raided alliances.

Starting a mythical clock before ever talking to us is not giving chances.

Good sir, clocks are not mythical. Only elves, unicorns, and smurfs are mythical.

[Merrie Melodies]

Not really, but I'll do it cause I <3 you. \m/ has repeatedly tech raided alliances.

Good sir, clocks are not mythical. Only elves, unicorns, and smurfs are mythical.

I think you are confusing us with your treaty partners the Goons. the only alliance \m/ has raided was FoA unless I missed something.

[hizzy]

Ivan, I know you are well informed by your good friend and ally Grub, that being said you well know that this war was happening long before a couple of our members made those unfortunate remarks, the whole racial slur issue is just a side show for added bling.

Except you know damn well this isn't about added blind.

The sideshow was brought to us by you, not Grub. And you know well enough that you're not getting rolled because of it, it only got in the way of diplomacy preventing war.

If Grub came to you and you gave him a puppy with a bow tied around it's neck and a sunflower attached to the bow along with a pink card that had a nice handwritten "no" inside, instead of calling him and his government a bunch of ******s, you'd still be getting rolled.

Edited January 22, 2010 by hizzy

[Merrie Melodies]

Except you know damn well this isn't about added blind.

The sideshow was brought to us by you, not Grub. And you know well enough that you're not getting rolled because of it, it only got in the way of diplomacy preventing war.

If Grub came to you and you gave him a puppy with a bow tied around it's neck and a sunflower attached to the bow along with a pink card that had a nice handwritten "no" inside, instead of calling him and his government a bunch of ******s, you'd still be getting rolled.

Did we just agree with each other?

[hizzy]

Did we just agree with each other?

Maybe on the first half, as long as you're not implying that Grub was going to roll you regardless of all actions and diplomacy.

It seems that across every thread dealing with this topic folks from \m/ are hung up on how they're being attacked because of a random member's racial insult. But that's not entirely true.

Hell, even PC's DoW to defend you guys implies that the entire war is about what was said on IRC and some fictional censorship that you seem to think Grub is imposing on you.

[Merrie Melodies]

Maybe on the first half, as long as you're not implying that Grub was going to roll you regardless of all actions and diplomacy.

It seems that across every thread dealing with this topic folks from \m/ are hung up on how they're being attacked because of a random member's racial insult. But that's not entirely true.

Hell, even PC's DoW to defend you guys implies that the entire war is about what was said on IRC and some fictional censorship that you seem to think Grub is imposing on you.

I know for fact we are not being rolled for those chan comments, and yes Grub would not have rolled us had we submitted to his will, happily it was something our alliance was oppossed too

[Doitzel]

I know for fact we are not being rolled for those chan comments

You and Starfox need to compare notes.

[hizzy]

Maybe you should educate your members and allies then on why things are the way they are?

The whole "we're only getting rolled cause polaris hates us blah blah blah racism blah blah censorship" is getting old.

[Merrie Melodies]

Maybe you should educate your members and allies then on why things are the way they are?

The whole "we're only getting rolled cause polaris hates us blah blah blah racism blah blah censorship" is getting old.

That whole worn out tired false story probably wouldn't be getting so much play if Grub hadn't key pointed them in his DoW, ever consider that?

[Fallen Fool]

The part in Bold is incorrect, we canceled the protectotate with CIS before the senate vote issue, there was no treaty.

Yeah, I went back to check our records and turns out I was wrong. You tried to join a rival black bloc while still under CIS's protection, and then later snubbed CIS by switching Senate candidates without telling them after the protectorate was canceled.

tl;dr My bad.

[Roadie]

Yes, it does. The only people who have a problem with that are people who, for whatever reason, aren't in \m/.

You have confused Freedom of Sovereignty with Freedom from Reciprocity.

[NoFish]

@NoFish- from all your posts i have read (i may have missed some posts due to the sheer volume of posting that has been done) you have usually harped only on the whole tech raid issue as the primary reason for this war. you may have touched on the other two reasons for the war but dismiss them as you did in your post. (getting an IPS error so cant look at the review of the topic just yet) just because i discuss the tech raid aspect, does not mean the other two do not still exist. you made it seem as if that is the only reason for the war was the tech raid, which i told you was false. and again, because a lot of your posts revolve around only the tech raid issue or about how this affects RoK, it truly does not seem as if you understood all the reasons that were involved otherwise, while you may be sympathetic towards RoK for the position they are in, you would not be attacking Polaris for hitting \m/ because of what \m/ did directly to Grub. or you are ignoring those, despite thinking they are wrong, and are just going after Polaris due to some grudge or personal vendetta.

and yes, it is either one of those.

The other parts tend to need less discussion, I find, it's not that I ignore them. The fact is, though, whenever someone attacks any part of the CB Polar's supporters always seem to shout "the war isn't about that! It's about !!" and then when someone attacks that Polar's partisans shout "the war isn't about A it's about B!" and so forth. But, for your benefit, as I do truly believe you to be one of the few people on the OWF willing to be swayed by rational argument, I'll go over the non-tech raid related points.

The racial slurs were 1) already apologized for and 2) said by a non-government member of the alliance - not to mention that NpO has repeatedly stated that they weren't going to attack \m/ over them. I, for one, didn't fight against NPO's hegemony just to watch alliances get rolled when one of their members says something distasteful.

\m/'s conduct in general and of the government on the OWF, and presumably, in private negotiations was, well, less than stellar, to put it lightly. No one except \m/ themselves are going to deny that - and even most of them probably wouldn't. However, the fact of the matter is, they were approached with blatant threats from the get-go by someone who had no business butting his nose into an amicably resolved situation. As far as I'm concerned, neither one of these parties handled themselves in a respectable manner.

Lastly, let's get to the only reason mentioned in the DoW "To preserve the standards of our community, we hereby declare war on \m/." This is simply NpO deciding to take up the mantle of the World Police with another curb stomp that reminds more than a few of us of what they did under Sponge - and wonder if they've really changed at all, or just made their language more flowery.

[Dochartaigh]

The other parts tend to need less discussion, I find, it's not that I ignore them. The fact is, though, whenever someone attacks any part of the CB Polar's supporters always seem to shout "the war isn't about that! It's about !!" and then when someone attacks that Polar's partisans shout "the war isn't about A it's about B!" and so forth. But, for your benefit, as I do truly believe you to be one of the few people on the OWF willing to be swayed by rational argument, I'll go over the non-tech raid related points.

yes, and frankly that annoys me to no ends but i do see what you are saying. both sides are guilty of this instead of looking at the total picture (i.e. total DoW post).

The racial slurs were 1) already apologized for and 2) said by a non-government member of the alliance - not to mention that NpO has repeatedly stated that they weren't going to attack \m/ over them. I, for one, didn't fight against NPO's hegemony just to watch alliances get rolled when one of their members says something distasteful.

the apology, at least initially read as more of a "Sorry you got offended and those remarks do not reflect \m/ at all but those remarks are always said by our \m/embers and if you don't like it, too bad, don't come into our channel."

though you did remind me i have to look for the clarification post that is somewhere in that 16 page thread.

While i may use those remarks as a reason, after rereading the DoW and going back over Grub's posts, those remarks are what lead to a failure in diplomacy between Polaris and \m/ which helped lead up to this war. it is possible that without those remarks, diplomacy could have been conducted and war avoided.

\m/'s conduct in general and of the government on the OWF, and presumably, in private negotiations was, well, less than stellar, to put it lightly. No one except \m/ themselves are going to deny that - and even most of them probably wouldn't. However, the fact of the matter is, they were approached with blatant threats from the get-go by someone who had no business butting his nose into an amicably resolved situation. As far as I'm concerned, neither one of these parties handled themselves in a respectable manner.

yes Grub made blatant threats, but those were made prior to any agreement between FoA/Corp and the raiders had been made. When Grub went into #\m/, it may or may not have been (no time was ever given though it is generally stated that it was after) after the situation was resolved. the one situation that was not resolved though was the rise in tensions between Polaris and \m/ over the situation. thus, diplomacy could have been used to resolve those tensions. while Grub may or may not have had any right sticking his nose into the situation, the threats were made prior to Corporation being on the scene (i think, i will look into this to make sure). though, i do agree that instead of threats, Grub could have placed the FoA under temporary protection instead of the Corporation and both sides should have utilized Ragnarok as a mediator to ensure that unnecessary threats or racial slurs were not used.

Lastly, let's get to the only reason mentioned in the DoW "To preserve the standards of our community, we hereby declare war on \m/." This is simply NpO deciding to take up the mantle of the World Police with another curb stomp that reminds more than a few of us of what they did under Sponge - and wonder if they've really changed at all, or just made their language more flowery.

while that is one reason, and the one attached to the statement of "we hereby declare war on \m/"; other reasons are given throughout the DoW and in order to understand the reasoning behind why Polaris is doing what Polaris is doing. "diplomacy can not be conducted when one side resorts to the use of racist, offensive and degrading language to describe the other and diplomacy can not be attempted when neither side is prepared to concede anything at all."

in that even Polaris seems to realize that they are partially at fault for diplomacy failing as is \m/.

"The call is often raised, ''do something about it'' and all that is required for our community to slide further into obscurity is for good men to do nothing."

i do recall many people hoping that the DSAI/MMR crowd would vanish or become a rare minority when the Karma war finished, as it is and most likely always will be regarded in light of the eras they were strongest in. that of WUT/Q. an era that many felt oppressed in, including those who now have risen up and are using said philosophy.

so i can see where you are coming from and do understand that you are correct in that most posters on either side pick and choose the reasons instead of realizing that all the reasons should be considered regardless of whether it works for their side or not.

also, thank you for the compliment. i do apologize if i sounded too aggressive in my assessment of you as i was just frustrated not only with you but with everyone who seems focused on only one argument. Thank you for this post though it helped illuminate areas that i myself had not focused on as well.

[mrcalkin]

The part in Bold is incorrect, we canceled the protectotate with CIS before the senate vote issue, there was no treaty.

I can vouch for this as a mid-level gov of Umbrella at the time, the protectorate had already ended before the senate vote issue came up.

edit: beaten D:

Edited January 22, 2010 by mrcalkin

[hizzy]

That whole worn out tired false story probably wouldn't be getting so much play if Grub hadn't key pointed them in his DoW, ever consider that?

No, I haven't. You know why? Because of the 15 sentences that make up Grub's DoW, only 1/3 of one mentions racism. Your willingness to expose your genitals and your unwillingness to concede anything make up the rest of the same sentence.

You brought it to the forums, and you're making a big deal out of it, not Grub.

[Merrie Melodies]

yes, and frankly that annoys me to no ends but i do see what you are saying. both sides are guilty of this instead of looking at the total picture (i.e. total DoW post).

the apology, at least initially read as more of a "Sorry you got offended and those remarks do not reflect \m/ at all but those remarks are always said by our \m/embers and if you don't like it, too bad, don't come into our channel."

though you did remind me i have to look for the clarification post that is somewhere in that 16 page thread.

While i may use those remarks as a reason, after rereading the DoW and going back over Grub's posts, those remarks are what lead to a failure in diplomacy between Polaris and \m/ which helped lead up to this war. it is possible that without those remarks, diplomacy could have been conducted and war avoided.

yes Grub made blatant threats, but those were made prior to any agreement between FoA/Corp and the raiders had been made. When Grub went into #\m/, it may or may not have been (no time was ever given though it is generally stated that it was after) after the situation was resolved. the one situation that was not resolved though was the rise in tensions between Polaris and \m/ over the situation. thus, diplomacy could have been used to resolve those tensions. while Grub may or may not have had any right sticking his nose into the situation, the threats were made prior to Corporation being on the scene (i think, i will look into this to make sure). though, i do agree that instead of threats, Grub could have placed the FoA under temporary protection instead of the Corporation and both sides should have utilized Ragnarok as a mediator to ensure that unnecessary threats or racial slurs were not used.

while that is one reason, and the one attached to the statement of "we hereby declare war on \m/"; other reasons are given throughout the DoW and in order to understand the reasoning behind why Polaris is doing what Polaris is doing. "diplomacy can not be conducted when one side resorts to the use of racist, offensive and degrading language to describe the other and diplomacy can not be attempted when neither side is prepared to concede anything at all."

in that even Polaris seems to realize that they are partially at fault for diplomacy failing as is \m/.

"The call is often raised, ''do something about it'' and all that is required for our community to slide further into obscurity is for good men to do nothing."

i do recall many people hoping that the DSAI/MMR crowd would vanish or become a rare minority when the Karma war finished, as it is and most likely always will be regarded in light of the eras they were strongest in. that of WUT/Q. an era that many felt oppressed in, including those who now have risen up and are using said philosophy.

so i can see where you are coming from and do understand that you are correct in that most posters on either side pick and choose the reasons instead of realizing that all the reasons should be considered regardless of whether it works for their side or not.

also, thank you for the compliment. i do apologize if i sounded too aggressive in my assessment of you as i was just frustrated not only with you but with everyone who seems focused on only one argument. Thank you for this post though it helped illuminate areas that i myself had not focused on as well.

What I put in bold is a flat out lie.

[DaJoW]

Ah yes, our constant oppression of smaller and weaker alliances. After all, we fought a whole of two (!) wars last year and we had the nerve to not demand reps, or anything else, after either of them, nor will we after this one. What monsters we really are.

You found similarities between two wars over 20 months apart. I'm sure you could look at any war which a large, old alliance is a part of and find similarities with another of it's wars (GPA et al excluded of course). For that matter, it must be us as well, it could not possibly be that \m/, or the spirit of it at least, tends to get on a collision course with other alliances.