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official announcment by the alliance "free Grä..."


MOTU-Man

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I was under the impression Ramirus was elected democraticly.

Tyrannies control people through force, but democracies manufacture the consent of the governed. --- Walter Lippman (paraphrased)

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. --- usually misattributed to Benjamin Franklin

In other words, democracy isn't necessarily a defense against criticism, because not only can it completely disenfranchise the minority (even if the difference between the majority and minority is a small one), but the value of democracy hinges on having a fully informed voter base - which is rarely the case in modern times (and alliance politics in general).

In terms of most voting populations, democracy fails because the voters don't know enough about what's really going on (either because the information is withheld from them, or because they simply don't care enough to learn), so their vote has little to do with the actual issues or policies, and instead is influenced by parroted soundbites and popularity contests. Democracy (even representative democracy) is essentially being eternally trapped in the hell of high school politics, where the popular kid winds up being Student Council President even if they're completely inept.

Then again, alliance politics in general often descends to a level akin to high school cliques feuding, so it isn't entirely surprising.

I actually have no idea what's going on internally with the Grämlins (or why), and I'm certainly not pointing fingers or assigning blame (mainly because I have no clue what the disagreements are, let along who's wrong), but the democracy angle doesn't really justify much of anything.

Plenty of people have been democratically elected throughout history who were horribly bad in their jobs.

Multi-Billion Dollar War Chests ftw!

I remember back when it was considered somewhat outrageous to suggest 500 million as a comfortable warchest. Ahh, now I feel old.

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I do not know what is going on as well, like Näktergal said, and I rarely comment on internal alliance's issues of alliances not connected to me, but it just seems to me that you would fight better for your cause from a public arena rather then from the battlefield.

While you may engage in rather big battles with your opponents, much bigger damage to those you seek to inflict it or gain for what is you are here representing would come if you could come to the public and endeavor into a political fight for your "free Gremlins" because otherwise this is just as a shoot in the dark I am afraid,..

Edited by Branimir
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Once you've left an alliace, you've got two options when it starts to change: Shake your head, or re-join and do something about it.

The Gremlins diaspora should get over it, or if they're soooo interested in preserving a Gremlins that they left, join again and use the democratic process as a cryogenics process.

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Once you've left an alliace, you've got two options when it starts to change: Shake your head, or re-join and do something about it.

The Gremlins diaspora should get over it, or if they're soooo interested in preserving a Gremlins that they left, join again and use the democratic process as a cryogenics process.

Though I agree with your general sentiment, Gromlins is not a true democracy, their tiered voting system makes it quite difficult to do what you described.

Edited by Essenia
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Though I agree with your general sentiment, Gromlins is not a true democracy, their tiered voting system makes it quite difficult to do what you described.

Yet most of the people who left were in the very top tiers. They could have "preserved" grämlins as they would have had the mass of votes.

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Once you've left an alliace, you've got two options when it starts to change: Shake your head, or re-join and do something about it.

The Gremlins diaspora should get over it, or if they're soooo interested in preserving a Gremlins that they left, join again and use the democratic process as a cryogenics process.

Though I agree with your general sentiment, Gromlins is not a true democracy, their tiered voting system makes it quite difficult to do what you described.

Fair enough, then they should not have left. I don't have numbers, but there's been a movement of prominant Gremlins for months, and a steady decline between Gremlins and the partners these emigrants are joining. They're leaving either because they didn't like something that happened (and either didn't try or were unsuccessful in changing or stopping it), or other more innocuous reasons (new challenges, fresh air, bored, whatever). In either case, if Gremlins is now taking a different approach to things, then while it may interest those former members, it's really none of their business--they left.

Attempts to pressure Gremlins from without Gremlins are nothing more than breaches of sovereignty.

Yet most of the people who left were in the very top tiers. They could have "preserved" grämlins as they would have had the mass of votes.

Exactly. As I said above, I don't know exactly how many or who has left, but I can figure enough out from certain alliance rosters a good deal of them and to where. We're not talking about a bunch of newbs that left bootcamp, here.

Edited by Schattenmann
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I left because the community died. I gave my best attempts to save it, and I failed. When your not having fun you have to make a change. I loved the old gre, but if the new one has a close community, more power to them.

I think what some "Old Gre" are feeling is more or less nostalgia. What could have been if the community hadn't died. They don't want to "save" Gre, they want what we once had.

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Just after Karma war Matt Miller had something like 3 or 4k infra left, two days later he was back at 15k. that mustve sucked(how many clicks is that, let alone number of times you have to hit the 1 and 0 keys)

And yes, i support the nuking of Penkala..not that you'd ever be in his range with all that tech and land

Yeah, it took me two days to rebuy all my infra from 1k because I ran out of clicks on the first day due to war time limits imposed. I had 24k infra destroyed from my nation (bought to 1k during the last days for pennies) and destroyed around 44k off my opponents in that war. Looking back I shouldn't have turtled as reaching 10 million casualties probably would have happened pretty easily. War is sure fun in this game, enjoy it boys. :)

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Yet most of the people who left were in the very top tiers. They could have "preserved" grämlins as they would have had the mass of votes.

Not everything is black and white. It is natural for the old Gremlin members to feel upset about how the alliance turned out, just as the 'newer' gremlins have the right to be upset about us oldies complaining about an alliance that has since changed. Just because it has changed doesn't mean everyone needs to accept it, just like not everyone needs to be upset about it either.

That is truly a neutral stance, but both have their rights and objective opinions. Anyone uninvolved, supporting either side, really do not understand what occurred unless they were directly involved and saw everything that happened. It was changing over a period of time, some wanted it to change, some didn't, or not everyone agreed on how to change the situation. Then the charter came into play, inactivity, etc etc. It was a mess. Either way, Gremlins are still here and apparently their members like the new version. It is something I have come to accept.

As Eg said, when the community dies and tension stirs...everything goes down hill. Though I say Gre needs 'saving', Eg better described it. But hey, you are a different alliance that I once loved -- hopefully the new gremlins era will never go through what it did. All I will say is I am glad I am in The Ninjas -- It represents what I once thought ONOS and Gremlins did internally. This is a place to have fun, I am trying to be as nice as possible when I say: Good luck Gremlins. Boondock, Omas, etc..So long as you truly are having fun, you're doing it right. ;)

Edited by Ejayrazz
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Yeah, it took me two days to rebuy all my infra from 1k because I ran out of clicks on the first day due to war time limits imposed. I had 24k infra destroyed from my nation (bought to 1k during the last days for pennies) and destroyed around 44k off my opponents in that war. Looking back I shouldn't have turtled as reaching 10 million casualties probably would have happened pretty easily. War is sure fun in this game, enjoy it boys. :)

Will you be partaking in some, fun, with MOTU? lol

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Yet most of the people who left were in the very top tiers. They could have "preserved" grämlins as they would have had the mass of votes.

I think everyone can understand the effect of a vocal minority that creates conflict and drama.

Needless to say, the old Grämlins left for a reason of their own. The resulting steady decline and inactivity deletions plaguing Grämlins, on the other hand, could convey quite a different image. This whole topic could take a life of it's own, though. Needless to say, there was much more that occurred behind the scenes which need not be discussed.

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Mancland would like to salute one of the greatest individual nation leaders to have ever graced Planet Bob.

Your leaders and nation will live long in our memories; whilst we obviously cannot condone your manner of departure, we wish you well in your next life.

[OOC: all the best with the real-world MOTU-Man]

Edited by Myzebedeeistaken
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