This Whole Mess in Europe, Abroad

[Uberstein]

Uber, I don't care about your language. I only care that in the entire rant, you did not mention me even once! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I'll have to make up for this at once! But I'm out of people who will post my vent-logs.

Edited January 16, 2010 by BaronUberstein

[Michael McBride]

I have to apologize for my harsh language, with finals approaching and lack of sleep, I've been a bit on edge, especially with the sheer timing of this war, but it still completely unacceptable for me to sink to the level of childish insults. I know I have a short temper, it is something I need to work on, sometimes I just get angry and "explode". And you have not god modded in the current war, I applaud that, you've done an excellent job so far. But there are past examples where you have, but other people who had to actually directly deal with it would be better at finding examples than I am, though I can ask them if you really must know.

Now, I may not like you Pravus, but that doesn't mean I am going to cross the IC/OOC line. Notice how I'm not invading you, or even trying spy operations on you IC. Why? Because I realize, despite how much I dislike you, how much I don't like your actions, it would be improper to cross the IC/OOC line and actually do something against you because of my OOC dislike. I learned over my period fighting with the Nords that no matter what I think of somebody OOC, I cannot let myself bring it IC, because that just creates a huge mess and a hate spiral.

And Centurius, you actually helped me though posting that, because now I know who I can vent with and who I can't.

I would say that you already crossed the OOC/IC line. You didn't cross it in the traditional sense (doing IC actions for OOC reasons), you are correct, you crossed it in reverse. You think I'm a "!@#$%" OOC for my IC actions. That is still crossing the IC/OOC line no matter how you slice it.

I would like you to show me examples, or point me to someone who has examples, of where I have godmoded, however. I take great pride in being careful and not doing that during wars because I know how much it annoys the crap out of me when someone does it to me.

All in all, I accept your apology and hope that we can move on from this ugly incident. If you'd actually like to talk to me and get to know me OOCly, you can find me on MSN at cybernationsmh@yahoo.com.

What the hell is wrong with you? What does trashing Uberstein have to do with anything at all? Seriously, why the hell are you bringing this up now?

Now I'm not exactly Uberstein's biggest fan. You may recall me not liking him. And I won't say that he doesn't cross the OOC/IC line, because he did in that post, but seriously, why the hell did this come up? Where did this come from? Hate him on your own time, don't try and convince the rest of us of your righteousness and Uberstein's !@#$%yness when it is not relevant at all. At least when I was hating on him it was relevant.

You're worse than Legion.

My main point with showing this was simple: Uber constantly goes after people who cross the OOC/IC line. I was showing examples of him doing the same thing. I was taking the moral high ground from him OOCly. I am not looking for anything to happen to him ICly because of this, that would be hypocritical. I don't hate Uberstein, I don't hate anyone here, and I'm not trying to get the rest of you to think he's a !@#$%. I'm showing that he can be, and has been, a hypocrite, which should be taken into account with his stuff about the OOC/IC line.

[Kaiser Martens]

It doesn't matter if it is a colony or not, it is a military base, a section of land, a non-contiguous parcel of territory. That argument is all IC, this is not the place to talk about it.

Nordheim and Iceland are not German Colonies.

On a more serious note, it is interesting to see the can of worms which has been uncovered. A lot of the people here are acting or have acted in a childish manner. But well, CNRP has *always* been like this more or less since a bit before the first Nordland came about. It's not that now it's worse, it's that now it can be seen. I nearly quit because of this, but I'm just too damn stubborn.

This is pretty sad, we should be writers, not whiners. Why the hell don't we follow Botha's rules? RESPONSIBLE and CONSENSUAL RP without OOC stuff in it.

About Überstein,

Yes, he has crossed the OOC-IC line several times, most notably in my case. Since then, he had offered me apologies which I had accepted right away. So, yes, he is a hypocrite, but he is *NOT* a bad person, and he is trying to change slowly for the best.

Who here can say that has never had OOC-IC mixups? Even if not a massive thing like this, even smaller things. Very, very few people. Überstein has done something bad, which he regrets, but he is definately *not* the only one, and I include myself. Everybody should be reflecting upon their own "OOC policies".

Lastly, at least we learned to move OOC to a different thread.

Can we PLEASE make CNRP be a better place to be? Why do we have to be mean to each other?

Even in war this is obvious. Almost everytime that a war happens between two nations, they go for total destruction and annexation of the enemy. We no longer see wars like the old Centurius-Gebiv vs Martens war, in which we settled with some territorial exchanges. Now EVERY war is about complete annihilation of the enemy and OOC banishment from the land they occupy. No wonder people take war so seriously. And then even if a nation changes their government, they're still hated for past deeds, part of this happens IRL, but still there's some OOC in it too.

It's still not too late to improve CNRP. Back in 06 when I dropped by, it was so much better!...in most, not in every way.

Be smart like me and Über being friendly again after being enemies, or like Lynneth who passed from being an Enemy to being an Ally of my due to RPing properly government changes in both nations, not allowing OOC to rule our policies. And so on and so forth.

[Sargun II]

Most wars are about annexation also because of re-rolling. Losers will automatically just re-roll instead of stick around and RP a defeated country.

To prove KMs point, at one point both of our nations had an MADP with each other. Shortly after we found each other on the opposite side of a conflict but still we were respectful to each other. Even then, when I opposed his nations many times, I have not stuck around with some OOC grudge (and neither he) and we have come to not be enemies but to at least have a neutral point of view of each other.

[Mergerberger II]

Except that's NOT what he did. he specificially stated he was giving them aid until they could establish a life once more.

Yeah, is he going to transplant their entire heritage, subculture, life, family, ground, air, and water, too? Is he going to move the cemetery where their ancestors are buried? How about the fertile soil they farm? What about the cool breeze off the Mediterranean? Or the way the air feels just right? Is he going to move their entire house, with the growth charts of their kids and the place where Bill got angry and punched the wall? Is he going to move all those in a day? Is he going to comfort the weird feelings they get from not being at home?

NO ONE IS TRYING TO GET ANYONE TO HATE ANYONE ELSE.

Merely trying to make a point about OOC/IC actions.

That conversation was entirely OOC and entirely not on these forums. It was on MSN. And he wasn't even there, Centurius leaked the logs to him for whatever reason. Uberstein was clearly angry, and stressed over multiple things, and taking those things from MSN and bringing them on here does nothing if not make people hate him.

[Uberstein]

Yawoo, there are sats watching your entire area, would you be kind enough to provide concrete numbers and locations of your equipment/troops that are there? Thanks.

[Franz Ferdinand]

On a more serious note, it is interesting to see the can of worms which has been uncovered. A lot of the people here are acting or have acted in a childish manner. But well, CNRP has *always* been like this more or less since a bit before the first Nordland came about. It's not that now it's worse, it's that now it can be seen. I nearly quit because of this, but I'm just too damn stubborn.

I agree with this, and as you can understand, I think I'll continue my nation's stance against yours. The reason is simple... I must out-stubborn the enemy as I perceive it to be.

[Subtleknifewielder]

Yeah, is he going to transplant their entire heritage, subculture, life, family, ground, air, and water, too? Is he going to move the cemetery where their ancestors are buried? How about the fertile soil they farm? What about the cool breeze off the Mediterranean? Or the way the air feels just right? Is he going to move their entire house, with the growth charts of their kids and the place where Bill got angry and punched the wall? Is he going to move all those in a day? Is he going to comfort the weird feelings they get from not being at home?

That conversation was entirely OOC and entirely not on these forums. It was on MSN. And he wasn't even there, Centurius leaked the logs to him for whatever reason. Uberstein was clearly angry, and stressed over multiple things, and taking those things from MSN and bringing them on here does nothing if not make people hate him.

Why are we even continuing this? Pravus explained himself, Uber apologized, and Pravus accepted his apology. Can we get back to discussing the war itself?

[Sabioviejo]

yeah the fact that my 200k troops magically appeared in Valencia without me knowing about it. Not to mention the fact that moving 200k troops in one day is rather impossible.....

[Mergerberger II]

Why are we even continuing this? Pravus explained himself, Uber apologized, and Pravus accepted his apology. Can we get back to discussing the war itself?

Yeah. I just think it was rather low to post those logs like that.

[comrade nikonov]

Sitethief your soldiers were RPed by you getting mobilized, and its not like the trains can't make multiple journeys.

[The FSM]

I was reading through the War thread and some of the ship descriptions in Mergerberger's Naval RP prompted SOM and I to take a look at his Naval Factbook. We have a few issues which we are outlining in:

FSM and SOM's Fighting Ships- Issue 1 (The Dutch Navy)

link: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=2027738

Mirage Class Electronic Warfare Cruiser

-Overall a good ship, we like the ingenuity of making a craft designed solely for the disruption of enemy communication and radar/sonar abilities

Dragon Class Aircraft Carrier

-While we find the use of the catamaran design to be very interesting as applied to the aircraft carrier, it is also physically impossible, for the following reasons:

1) The displacement of this ship is 25 million tons, 25 times larger than the largest aircraft carrier today. While I realize that merger has 1500+ tech I dont think that gives him the license to create ships so large that they are beyond what would be physically possible.

2) The ship features two .7km long runways, with a displacement of 25 million tons this means the ship would lack the surface area to remain upright. .7 km runways are also very over the top, the longest flight deck today is less than half that length.

3) 840 CIWS, modern AC's have 4-8 CIWS. While we realize the surface area is about 5-6 times a modern AC this would still mean that if constructed today it would have around 48 CIWS, or about 5% of the number of CIWS the designer specifies.

4) 13,000 (approx.) missile capacity is impossible. The area required for all those missiles would dwarf the surface area of this ship.

5) more than 1,200 torpedo tubes. I would assume that these would have to be deck mounted (as mounting them below the waterline would be impossible for this number of tubes). This would take up alot of deck space and because of the fact that the deck of an AC is way above the waterline you would be unable to launch them properly

6) 12 nuclear reactors would be far too heavy and impossible to create the circuitry for.

7) The draught (area of ship below waterline) of 172m would make it almost impossible to dock in most harbors

Golden Class Aircraft Carrier

1) The displacement of the ship is many times less than the number required to hold even a single airplane, let alone 84

2) The ship is horribly undermanned

3) The 9 ft draught is also far too small to prevent the ship from losing its seaworthiness

4) The displacement is also far too low to maintain any of the other specs that were assigned to this vessel.

Vigil Class Frigate

1) Needs more displacement in order to support the amount of weaponry it is packing

Ambercrombie Class Destroyer

1) You have a lot of wasted displacement, unless this ship carries lots of extra rocks around the armament an such you included for this ship is much less than what the displacement allows for.

Zugud Class Submarine

1) With the number of torpedo tubes that are being packed into the bow of the ship the bow would have to be 2-3 times larger than that of a normal submarine.

2) The massive bow of the ship would mean the sub would have to be either 2-3 times larger (beam wise) than the Seawolf Class sub the US navy uses (its beam is roughly 12 m with 8 torpedo tubes in the bow, the Zugud would have to have a beam of about 24-36 meters to maintain structural integrity)

3) The 1100mm vertical torpedo tubes are massive torpedoes

Thats what SOM and I found that we felt needs to be addressed and revised. SOM may be along later to post anything I may have missed

[Mergerberger II]

I changed all of the things you specified with regards to the Dragon-class already. Cochin and Shadowsage were on me about it earlier. It is all changed in the post.

As for these other things, those are mostly technicalities, displacement, crew amounts, draught, etc. I am not a naval technician and thus must just put estimates about displacement. I apologize for inaccuracies however I hope you understand why they are there.

I apologize for the issues with the Zugud. I mostly took those from a previously designed ship by a member of a certain other game whose name must not be spoken here, and since I do not know enough about submarines to take what is there and modify it to make it realistic. I will make alterations should you recommend a size that is decent.

[The FSM]

Well, admittedly I think SOM is much more of a naval technician than I. For my ships (those that I have posted basic stats about and those that I am in the process of making basic stats for) I wikipedia ships that are in the same class to get a grasp on what the norm is and then change things proportionally to what Im looking for.

Much of what I posted comes from SOM and yes, its just a matter of changing displacement numbers and not really a matter of major design impossibilities. In terms of your sub, I would aim for halving the number of bow tubes, 10-11 is probably a much more workable number for CNRP. 8-10 bow tubes should allow you to keep most of the stats you have for the Zugud unchanged. In terms of the angled or vertical launch torpedo tubes Im not sure if they are feasible or not, SOM may have a better explanation than I. Loading them may be difficult because of the fact they are vertical. In subs vertical launch tubes for missiles have to be pre-loaded in port so I would think it would have to be the same way if you used vertical or angled launch torpedo tubes.

For all the draught and displacement numbers, just look on wikipedia for ships in the same class as the one you are trying to design. Even then, displacement is the only one that is really important for RP purposes because it determines how much armament and such can be loaded onto a ship. For example, my Battlecruiser is inspired by the RL Kirov class battlecruiser except I decided to roughly double the armament because I intended it to serve as the backbone of my surface fleet. Since I was doubling the armament I assumed that I would have to roughly double the displacement to accommodate for more weapons systems, crew, ammo, engines etc.

[SpacingOutMan]

I changed all of the things you specified with regards to the Dragon-class already. Cochin and Shadowsage were on me about it earlier. It is all changed in the post.

No worries mate, it's more or less to your advantage.

As for these other things, those are mostly technicalities, displacement, crew amounts, draught, etc. I am not a naval technician and thus must just put estimates about displacement. I apologize for inaccuracies however I hope you understand why they are there.

Of course, and I admittedly don't know anything about, say, aircraft. I talked to LVN about a few things as well. But from what I know personally about boats (I have built a few low-scale usable boats, along with being a huge boat buff), the suggestions are there to actually help you in terms of specific lengths, displacements, etc. When I mentioned that your displacement was way too much, it means your ship would simply sink. Likewise with too light, your boat would capsize rather quickly or be overcome by currents. It would also sink very quickly because of added weight, especially for your second class carrier.

I apologize for the issues with the Zugud. I mostly took those from a previously designed ship by a member of a certain other game whose name must not be spoken here, and since I do not know enough about submarines to take what is there and modify it to make it realistic. I will make alterations should you recommend a size that is decent.

Submarines are intended to overcome submarine pressure to have that 'zest' for surprise attack. Your current model and specs lets it only reach a never-exceed depth of 200 m. Why? It's a measurement based off of physics that shape help dictates exposed surface area, meaning that the larger the surface area, the more pressure that can be passed along the entire hull. With that shape, it's 200 m. However, that is just based off the picture, but this is something you should always keep in mind with submarines.

As FSM discussed, your bow tubes are excessive. Submarines require streamlined bodies to increase efficient speeds and depths. 8-10 bow tubes would allow for this to be possible. As for your vertical vs. angled tube dilemma, when a port is external, they cannot be reloaded. They are pre-loaded prior to departure. Only internal tubes can be reloaded. Angled tubes will be usually wrong the curvature of the side, whereas the vertical are obviously coming through the dorsal side of the submarine. Just food for thought.

Edited January 17, 2010 by SpacingOutMan

[iamthey]

CNRP Nation: Greater Pacifica

Factbook (If applicable): http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=68012

Side Supporting: Lousiana by proxy (through italy)

Method of Support: Military if Italy is attacked.

Other Notes: I intend to position soldiers/navy to defend Italy if attacked. I may enter aggressively to support him, but I haven't made any official IC thing about that. Also there has been no public statement declaring support, only SiC movements.

[kitex]

CNRP Nation: Blue Heaven

Factbook (If applicable): Check sig.

Side Supporting: Neutral

Method of Support: None

Other Notes: Will become militarily if mainland Louisiana is threatened.

[Sabioviejo]

So, vodka just entered the battle ground .

[Zoot Zoot]

CNRP Nation: New Eden

Factbook (If applicable): Check sig.

Side Supporting: Neutral

Method of Support: Medical and refugee camps on Iberian Peninsular via hospital ships

Other Notes: Will become militarily involved if mainland Louisiana is threatened.

[Kaiser Martens]

I can no longer keep track of who is siding with what or where...or at war with whom...eek

[Tahsir]

I can no longer keep track of who is siding with what or where...or at war with whom...eek

Has the war even gotten past the first counter attacks?

[Kaiser Martens]

Exactly that's why it's confusing. 18 pages and just that...

[HHAYD]

Exactly that's why it's confusing. 18 pages and just that...

"OMG! GOD MOD!"

"NO, LIAR! I R NOT GUNNA DROP IT!"

"SCREW YOU, I R NOT GUNNA RECOGNIZE YOUR RP!"

"Wait, what's going on?"

"I invaded you with 100,000 troops within a few minutes and steamrolled your defenses!"

"GOD MOD AGAIN!"

"LIES!"

"I HATE YOU!"

"YOU R CROSSING THE IC/OCC LINE!"

Insert 10+ pages of OOC whining and confusion

^ That almost always happen whenever a major war starts without a basic plan agreed on what will happen, who will lose, who will win, and etc.

Edited January 19, 2010 by HHAYD

[Uberstein]

"OMG! GOD MOD!"

"NO, LIAR! I R NOT GUNNA DROP IT!"

"SCREW YOU, I R NOT GUNNA RECOGNIZE YOUR RP!"

"Wait, what's going on?"

"I invaded you with 100,000 troops!"

"GOD MOD AGAIN!"

"LIES!"

Insert 10+ pages of OOC whining and confusion

^ That almost always happen whenever a major war starts without a basic plan agreed on what will happen, who will lose, who will win, and etc.

Which is why we need regional conflicts!

[HHAYD]

Which is why we need regional conflicts!

Even regional wars can turn into an OOC war on a smaller scale and can be inflated by non-regional nations joining the fight.