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Shattered Star Exiles Announcement


Vasuda
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Recognition of Treaty Cancellation

Just over three days ago, the 57th Overlanders notified us that they intended to invoke Article V of The Objects in Space Accords. This marks the low point in a friendship that has existed since the foundation of our alliances, and was formalized shortly after the 57th's foundations with a PIAT.

I am truly sorry it had to come to this. Despite what some may think, we never wanted this to happen. We did have several legitimate concerns regarding the current state of the 57th, but it was unanimously decided by all SSX members who voted to offer a renegotiation of the treaty as a sign of friendship, rather than an outright cancellation. We presented our concerns, and offered the 57th an ODP until such a time when we felt confident enough to honor an MDoAP in any situation.

It is unfortunate that the leadership of 57th felt our concerns to be trivial, or imaginary. It is also a true shame that their decision not to sign treaties lower than MDPs came to cause the end of their longest-lasting, and most loyal friendship. Especially since, despite the offered compromise being an ODP, we still would have gladly honored it in virtually any situation. That said, I understand if the 57th considers their treaty policy to be a core ideal of their alliance, and their wish to defend that, no matter the cost. While it is true that the 57th offered to maintain the treaty as an MDoAP if the SSX would persue NAPs with our greater sphere of indirect allies, that is just something that we realisitically could not accept.

Again, it saddens me greatly to see these formal bonds of friendship dissolved between us. I sincerely wish everyone in the 57th Overlanders the best, and I am sorry if I let down my dear friends.

The Shattered Star Exiles regretfully recognizes and accepts the 57th Overlanders' decision to dissolve our treaty.

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I'm not sure what the 57th have been thinking lately, but I'd rather have an ODP with SSX than an MDoAP with a lot of other alliances.

With that said, hopefully this can be a simple case of two friends going different directions.

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Vasuda, Veneke and I go back a very long way so I am deeply saddened to see this cancellation. We can only hope that the fire of friendship between these two alliances has not gone completely out. With effort I feel the embers of this deep friendship can be found and the fire revived again someday. I look forward to a day when such effort is possible, and I would gladly help out two of my oldest friends in doing this.

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I'm not sure what the 57th have been thinking lately, but I'd rather have an ODP with SSX than an MDoAP with a lot of other alliances.

With that said, hopefully this can be a simple case of two friends going different directions.

^^ This

Any treaty with SSX would make me happy...cos i know they will keep their end of bargain under any and every circumstances..

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We can always be friendly to people, but people won't always let us be a friend. Honestly, I'm surprised that 57th would overplay their hand the way they have (lol just NAP everyone else), but then again not so much.

Anyway, when someone starts using a treaty as a line of credit rather than a symbol of a relationship, it's not worth the risk or insult to foot their bill.

Edited by Schattenmann
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While I am sad to see this treaty come to an end (one in which I helped create and put into effect for the 57th), I can understand that sometimes alliances must do what is inline with their own ideals and reasoning. SSX are good people and I'm sure that they did what they felt was right after lengthy discussion and consideration.

Good luck to my friends in SSX.

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The fact that you seem surprised that 57th would honour their ideals is baffling. What did you expect them to do?

I understand there were some circumstances that forced you to do your move, but still.

The entire thing is backwards:

57th's "core ideal" of only signing MDP+ was only instituted a few months ago, it's not some central theme that has ruled their foreign policy from day 1. The guy that instituted it doesn't even belong to 57th anymore.

57th refused to accept a downgrade with a lifelong ally over valid concerns, named the above policy in their reasonging, then suggested that SSX simply NAP everyone they don't want to fight alongside 57th. Soooooo, 57th believes anything less than a MDP is worthless, but their ally SSX should hand out NAPs to void the SSX-57th MDoAP in certain situations?

Yes, very surprising. Silly, even.

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57th's "core ideal" of only signing MDP+ was only instituted a few months ago, it's not some central theme that has ruled their foreign policy from day 1. The guy that instituted it doesn't even belong to 57th anymore.

A few months ago? Seems like you don't know the 57th as well as you think you do, because they've had the policy of only signing MDP+ treaties for as long as I've known them, as a part of Nexus.

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A few months ago? Seems like you don't know the 57th as well as you think you do, because they've had the policy of only signing MDP+ treaties for as long as I've known them, as a part of Nexus.

Oh, you got me, my apologies. A handful of months. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=57339

The point is that this is not a founding principle, and the logical mind would not expect 57th to outright cancel on a lifelong ally in order to take a hardline stance on an arbitrary point. 57th has been acting kinnnnnda wild lately, SSX said "hey, brah, we love you and all, but we've gotta take a look at what's going on" and 57th told SSX to spin on a stick.

Edited by Schattenmann
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The facts of the matter are thus:

SSX presented concerns to the 57th. These concerns were her treaty to Veritas Aequitas and the apparent incompetence of her government. More accurately, she expressed further concerns (though these were not stated as the need for the "downgrade"), that she had no wish to engage certain alliances despite the lack of a treaty between SSX and these alliances.

The 57th regards her treaty to Veritas Aequitas as unbreakable. She (VA) was one of the three alliances who signed a MDP with the 57th when she was first created (The other two being The Federation and the Coalition of Royal Allied Powers). As for the incompetence of her government, the issue in particular raised was the apparent incompetence of Lord Panda. This was further developed by SSX to claim that she had no knowledge of how Lord Panda nor TheHIV (the Lieutenant) operated. These were legitimate concerns, to an extent. Whether we felt so or not though is irrelevant, SSX believed them to be. The only possible solution to this is time. Clearly SSX considered a MDP an unviable treaty at this point in time, and as such suggested an ODP (though they did apparently play around with cancelling it themselves). That said, a full and proper ODP is quite simply not an option for the 57th (I'll return to this further down in my post).

Countering the downgrade option, we presented SSX with several alternatives.

1. A temporary downgrade to ODP (on their end, the 57th would still maintain her end of the MDP, which was why I insisted on this option being implemented as a private measure - this was the 57th's wrong, and we would honour our end of things until we had it righted) with a review of the situation after X days, during which time alliances that SSX had no wish to enter into combat against could be NAP'd or treatied in another fashion, and also during which time they could get to know the 57th's government better. After the X day review, the treaty could be returned in force, or else cancelled.

2. A temporary (public) suspension of the treaty in it's entirety with the same revision clauses.

SSX rejected both options.

1. The first on the grounds that SSX had no wish to clutter up their treaty listings, that NAP's and other low level treaty's were out of vogue, that they were uncomfortable with private deals like this and that it was ridiculous that we were demanding that they do anything.

2. The second largely on the same grounds with the obvious exception that they were not uncomfortable with it being a public announcement.

With the rejection of both options, we were left with the choice to downgrade to an ODP, or cancel ourselves. Having discussed the matter at some length, the 57th decided upon cancelling the treaty. This lead to notification of intent to cancel in 72 hours, as stated in the treaty. Why SSX posted this considering it was the 57th who cancelled and not them I can only speculate on.

A full and proper ODP between the 57th and any alliance is unacceptable at this time. The reasons for this are obvious to anyone who is aware of the history of the 57th, of her foreign policy, her ideals, or indeed even of the people themselves who constitute the 57th.

An ODP is nothing more than the expression of every alliance's sovereign right to help out a friend in need, or even just someone who's being done over. There is but one exception to this, and that is bandwagonning, but in the main, there is no real need to sign an ODP. In point of fact, the 57th have always acted on ODP's as if they were MDP's for various reasons prior to the formal announcement of the policy. Any Brown alliance (with exception to the reformed Browncoats, who are too new to the sphere to be aware of this) can confirm this.

Schattenmann, one man does not the 57th make. I realize that your ego is so large as to render such a conclusion absurd (or perhaps your opinion of us so low as to do the same), but for the rest of ye reading this, what one man does for the 57th is done for the 57th, and not for himself. The policies decided upon before Mechanus left were policies I agreed with, and the vast majority of the 57th agreed with (I think we've only one dissenter on the MDP+ issue). The policies decided upon while any dictator is in command are obviously going to be backed by the majority of the community or else he will quickly find himself out of a job.

Shattered Star Exiles I still count as being friends of the 57th even if we have, at the moment, drifted apart. I wish them luck in their future endeavours and clear skies wherever they may find themselves.

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My only real question is...what the hell did we ever do to SSX? To be honest, I've never talked to a one of their members, at least not knowingly.

Normally, alliances that have a problem with VA at least have let us know they have a problem with us directly. I'm definitely sorry that VA has somehow been a factor in 57th losing an ally, although I'm still dumbfounded as to why we played the role we did.

Sorry 57th. We're bad people :(

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My only real question is...what the hell did we ever do to SSX? To be honest, I've never talked to a one of their members, at least not knowingly.

Normally, alliances that have a problem with VA at least have let us know they have a problem with us directly. I'm definitely sorry that VA has somehow been a factor in 57th losing an ally, although I'm still dumbfounded as to why we played the role we did.

Sorry 57th. We're bad people :(

You seem to base their dislike of your alliance upon communication between you and them. I don't have to talk to someone to dislike them. If your actions do not sit well with them, then they dislike you, its simple.

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