VE discussion

[Ejayrazz]

All I will say is the disbandment was a strategical maneuver rather than its utter destruction -- I was there when the decision was made and VE's plan succeeded, whether some of you are skeptical or not. Either way, they are still around and 10 times stronger because of it. Bilrow won his battle, but lost his war.

VE is NOT in the same category as \m/ in regards to reformation.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Ejayrazz

[sethb]

Our community is 4 years old, however we disbanded and therefore we should use the reformation date as our official birthday.

Just my two cents.

[Bill Wallace]

I wasn't here during the disbandment so this argument means very little to me personally. I just know we seem to be doing well and I'm looking forward to the future.

Oh and I almost forgot - Bilrow, thanks for the 50 tech you sent me last week.

[AirMe]

All I will say is the disbandment was a strategical maneuver rather than its utter destruction -- I was there when the decision was made and VE's plan succeeded, whether some of you are skeptical or not. Either way, they are still around and 10 times stronger because of it. Bilrow won his battle, but lost his war.

VE is NOT in the same category as \m/ in regards to reformation.

It is in the same category as IAA, Ronin etc etc etc. All of us use our reformation date. VE doesn't get a special exception here. They disbanded and reformed. Their reformation is now the new creation date for their alliance.

[Ejayrazz]

I could careless about the reformation date, I will still sleep at night. I was merely disproving Bilrow's sentiments in regards to his statements in saying VE died over a war, when in reality it was a strategic maneuver. VE's spirit lasted and is the reasoning it is still here, it was intended to resurface. VE still existed, just under a temporarily different name during those times. Yes, on paper VE was technically gone, but I don't care what paper says. VE, the heart and blood, was still around together as one. I consider that bond the foundation of VE, not some words on a digital document. But, as stated, I am not arguing the date, but Bilrow's ignorance to see the picture from another perspective.

[Caesar833]

What a bothersome subject, what matters to me is that the group never ceased to exist at all. Formally you data huggers may be right. Still it depends how you approach the subject, but I'm getting tired of using metaphors.

Our AA may have been abandoned, but the alliance itself never ever died.

I can't wait to celebrate our 4th birthday on the 12th of July.

Edit: Oh, and Bilrow hun, you're invited off course.

The alliance disbanded. That is a fact. That is the equivalent to death for an alliance, so yeah you did die. Maybe your community never did but so what? Community does not equal alliance if you are not in the game with an AA. Its simple.

[AirMe]

I could careless about the reformation date, I will still sleep at night. I was merely disproving Bilrow's sentiments in regards to his statements in saying VE died over a war, when in reality it was a strategic maneuver. VE's spirit lasted and is the reasoning it is still here, it was intended to resurface. VE still existed, just under a temporarily different name during those times. Yes, on paper VE was technically gone, but I don't care what paper says. VE, the heart and blood, was still around together as one. I consider that bond the foundation of VE, not some words on a digital document. But, as stated, I am not arguing the date, but Bilrow's ignorance to see the picture from another perspective.

Then if the NAAC ever reforms are you cool with them saying they formed in 2006 because their spirit and resolve was never broken?

[Cobalt]

Community does not equal alliance

Actually, I would say community is what defines an alliance

[hawk11]

I could careless about the reformation date, I will still sleep at night. I was merely disproving Bilrow's sentiments in regards to his statements in saying VE died over a war, when in reality it was a strategic maneuver. VE's spirit lasted and is the reasoning it is still here, it was intended to resurface. VE still existed, just under a temporarily different name during those times. Yes, on paper VE was technically gone, but I don't care what paper says. VE, the heart and blood, was still around together as one. I consider that bond the foundation of VE, not some words on a digital document. But, as stated, I am not arguing the date, but Bilrow's ignorance to see the picture from another perspective.

You're telling me the spirit of the organization was there, but you all dropped flag and ran. That's some spirit Ejayrazz, and it's exactly why I, one of the bigger supporters of VE in the NPO, consider this VE "Viridian Entente the Second."

[Ejayrazz]

Then if the NAAC ever reforms are you cool with them saying they formed in 2006 because their spirit and resolve was never broken?

NAAC is not together like VE was. VE was still together as one under a new AA, a temporary sanction from a leader using his allies to do his dirty work. It was a strategic maneuver. As stated, the heart and blood were still together, whereas NAAC dispersed everywhere because of its death. VE's disbandment was more so planned and coordinated to ensure a better future for itself and green a like.

As Caesar says, in terms of the reformation date..you're correct in the sense of its new arrival, in a technical sense; it is impossible to argue. But AA is merely a word, not the heart and feelings behind it. Caesar, community doesn't equal AA as you stated, it is more important than the "AA" in this sense. Mind you, I am not arguing in favor or against the reformation date, but rather showing why their disbandment wasn't the typical "Ok, we're dead." It was a "We'll play dead for now and come back ten times stronger."

It worked.

You're telling me the spirit of the organization was there, but you all dropped flag and ran. That's some spirit Ejayrazz, and it's exactly why I, one of the bigger supporters of VE in the NPO, consider this VE "Viridian Entente the Second."

I was never in VE. You can call their motives however you'd like, but their plan worked and are now here today stronger than ever. As I said countless times, I am not arguing the reformation date. I am arguing Bilrow's words in trying to proclaim VE as cowards -- as I have stated for the third or fourth time now.

We're on two different pages. This is the second VE in a technical sense and their reformation date SHOULD be used, as I have stated, but lets get on the same page here. Their disbandment wasn't similar to \m/'s.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Ejayrazz

[Cortath]

Actually, I would say community is what defines an alliance

Well, if we want to argue petty definitions, my community was founded in August of 2003 and never disbanded. Do we win "oldest alliance"?

Edited January 10, 2010 by Cortath

[Heft]

I like the idea that disbanding an alliance is a "strategic maneuver."

[Arcades057]

So, by what I'm gathering from the majority opinion of VE posters, your war with Bilrow/GGA did not truly end after you reformed. No, indeed you remained at war with them through the signing of the Algea Accords and the Hell's Frozen Over Pact... signed because you wanted to bask in the safety of the very powers you claim to have been at war with (I'll not even mention the Christmas Accords).

The Viridian Entente came crawling back to CN nearly begging Bilrow and the GGA to be allowed to reform, as seen here. But now, from the "horse's mouth" so to speak we hear that you were never truly NOT at war with Bilrow/GGA.

You reformed, protected by the very alliance that set out to destroy you, then went to war against another alliance (GOONS) which had only a small part in your destruction. I see you VE members talking about how Bilrow has used "big Brother NPO's" strength as a crutch; you yourselves used the GGA's strength and influence as a crutch to reform your alliance, so what, pray tell, does that say about VE? (again, not gonna even mention the Christmas Accords...)

It's always great when alliances show their true colors without ever meaning to.

[hawk11]

I like the idea that disbanding an alliance is a "strategic maneuver."

If this is the case, I don't think wars should end when alliances declare themselves defunct. After all, they're not dead, just waiting.

[Asriel Belacqua]

If this is the case, I don't think wars should end when alliances declare themselves defunct. After all, they're not dead, just waiting.

If I recall correctly... NPO already did this with EVERY SINGLE ALLIANCE THAT DISBANDED WHILE AT WAR WITH THEM.

I'm just saying... You can't "start" something that was already done years ago.

[AirMe]

NAAC is not together like VE was. VE was still together as one under a new AA, a temporary sanction from a leader using his allies to do his dirty work. It was a strategic maneuver. As stated, the heart and blood were still together, whereas NAAC dispersed everywhere because of its death. VE's disbandment was more so planned and coordinated to ensure a better future for itself and green a like.

We are still active on our old alliance forums. And we all never stopped flying the flag of the NAAC. As hawk said, they dropped flag and everything. We are very much like VE we just haven't felt the need to bring our alliance back.

EDIT: Well we were until Cox took them down a week or so ago.

Edited January 10, 2010 by AirMe

[King Srqt]

So, by what I'm gathering from the majority opinion of VE posters, your war with Bilrow/GGA did not truly end after you reformed. No, indeed you remained at war with them through the signing of the Algea Accords and the Hell's Frozen Over Pact... signed because you wanted to bask in the safety of the very powers you claim to have been at war with (I'll not even mention the Christmas Accords).

The Viridian Entente came crawling back to CN nearly begging Bilrow and the GGA to be allowed to reform, as seen here. But now, from the "horse's mouth" so to speak we hear that you were never truly NOT at war with Bilrow/GGA.

You reformed, protected by the very alliance that set out to destroy you, then went to war against another alliance (GOONS) which had only a small part in your destruction. I see you VE members talking about how Bilrow has used "big Brother NPO's" strength as a crutch; you yourselves used the GGA's strength and influence as a crutch to reform your alliance, so what, pray tell, does that say about VE? (again, not gonna even mention the Christmas Accords...)

It's always great when alliances show their true colors without ever meaning to.

Even if your twisted account of things was an accurate description of events then so what? According to you VE used and manipulated the group that orchestrated their destruction as a means to gain a foothold and strike back at the ones who wronged them.

That seems like brilliant strategy to me, they used your desperation to destroy your own allies against you allowing them to reform and regroup and strike back.

That is damn impressive.

If this is the case, I don't think wars should end when alliances declare themselves defunct. After all, they're not dead, just waiting.

They never have as evidenced by attacks that continued against nations wearing AAs of disbanded alliances which has been a common practice for as long as I have played this game.

[Cortath]

If I recall correctly... NPO already did this with EVERY SINGLE ALLIANCE THAT DISBANDED WHILE AT WAR WITH THEM.

I'm just saying... You can't "start" something that was already done years ago.

You recall incorrectly.

[King Srqt]

You recall incorrectly.

No he doesn't if you would like me to supply evidence I will go searching for specific cases, but you and your allies often attacked those who still wore the AA of disbanded alliances because "The alliance never gained peace and therefore there was an active war against all wearing the AA"

Edit: Oh hell I couldn't help myself. If you didn't continue wars after alliances disbanded why on earth would you need to mercifully give members of CIS peace 24 days after their disbandment? http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...c=33069&hl=

Edited January 11, 2010 by KingSrqt

[Bob Janova]

This is really a fairly pointless discussion. VE disbanded, reformed and many Viridians consider it to be the same community and the same alliance, after a few months of 'pause time'. There's no doubting the facts that VE officially did not exist in those months. The person running the 'oldest alliance' thread has made a judgement on which date to use and that's really for him to do.

Then if the NAAC ever reforms are you cool with them saying they formed in 2006 because their spirit and resolve was never broken?

If it's reformed by a large group of people who considered themselves NAACers in exile for the whole time since the disbandment, then yes. I think that's rather unlikely at this point, considering that most NAACers have either left the game or found new identities in other alliances; honestly, I don't think it's possible for a community in exile to last that long. Don't forget that VE's absence was only a matter of months, its boards weren't out of use and Viridians (at least at the time of the reformation) hadn't had enough time to find a new identity.

You're telling me the spirit of the organization was there, but you all dropped flag and ran

It was that or be ZI'd and forced to drop the flag; I don't think it really says anything against the spirit of VE that it didn't force its membership to go to ZI fighting its supposed friends.

Well, if we want to argue petty definitions, my community was founded in August of 2003 and never disbanded. Do we win "oldest alliance"?

You certainly claim to in other places, with your 'sixth year of Order' and so on. As for the thread in question, you'd have to make that case to the person that maintains the list.

So, by what I'm gathering from the majority opinion of VE posters, your war with Bilrow/GGA did not truly end after you reformed.

I think you should try reading the Viridian posts again

[Arcades057]

1: Even if your twisted account of things was an accurate description of events then so what? According to you VE used and manipulated the group that orchestrated their destruction as a means to gain a foothold and strike back at the ones who wronged them.

2: That seems like brilliant strategy to me, they used your desperation to destroy your own allies against you allowing them to reform and regroup and strike back.

That is damn impressive.

They never have as evidenced by attacks that continued against nations wearing AAs of disbanded alliances which has been a common practice for as long as I have played this game.

1: According to the logs I linked, not to me. Facts have a way of disproving even the most staunch support for a cause, in this case Viridia's--but I don't expect the green masses here to change their views based on facts alone, they have their community to consider.

2: Well as long as you're one of those "the ends justify the means" people, I expect to never again see you defame those who use treachery to gain the upper hand.

[hawk11]

They never have as evidenced by attacks that continued against nations wearing AAs of disbanded alliances which has been a common practice for as long as I have played this game.

Indeed. One could say that by the VE nations coming out here and claiming to be the original, they might be asking for a beating.

[Cortath]

You certainly claim to in other places, with your 'sixth year of Order' and so on. As for the thread in question, you'd have to make that case to the person that maintains the list.

My point is that it doesn't really matter. Your community is what matters, and I don't particularly care how other people view our cultural history. If VE believes its community was founded in 1892 or 2092, more power to them. If you want to argue an exact definition of "founding," then it seems they were founded when they were refounded.

But why does it all matter? I don't need a list made by some third party to justify my own internal cultural history, and I think highly enough of VE that I suspect that they don't need it either.

[King Srqt]

1: According to the logs I linked, not to me. Facts have a way of disproving even the most staunch support for a cause, in this case Viridia's--but I don't expect the green masses here to change their views based on facts alone, they have their community to consider.

2: Well as long as you're one of those "the ends justify the means" people, I expect to never again see you defame those who use treachery to gain the upper hand.

I have always opposed bullying and taking IC grudges to an OOC medium (ie PZI) and harsh punishments at the end of a war. I have always been a fan of spying, treachery and other such IC things to be used. Even if I occasionally oppose these things IC I never ever have OOC since they are what makes the game interesting, people opposing them when they are being used also makes things interesting. I play my IC role in an attempt to make the game fun. I hope you realize that this is a a game and that this is an OOC thread.

Indeed. One could say that by the VE nations coming out here and claiming to be the original, they might be asking for a beating.

I await the DoW from GGA and your breaking of surrender terms to support them anxiously.

Edited January 11, 2010 by KingSrqt

[Ejayrazz]

I like the idea that disbanding an alliance is a "strategic maneuver."

I like the idea their motives worked.

@Airme: No, the two aren't comparable. I already covered this. One died because it simply did, VE did it to survive in the long run. As BobJ pointed out, it was either doing this or being ZI'd and being forced to drop the flag and being reattacked if they ever tried resurfacing it.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Ejayrazz