So what happened to that war? Huh? SAY WHAT?! NUH UH!!!

[The Big Bad]

This is a pretty good summary. All it is lacking is any idea what really went on.

[The Big Bad]

If nothing else, thank you Tokugawa for affirming the validity of our CB. And for pointing out that TPF is involved in other areas of espionage. I hope their allies take note. Also, Id like to know who it was that 1st told you...although, I think I have a clue.

I think we saw pretty clearly the only espionage that occured was ZH giving info to Athens. Oh and that RoK spy.

[Yggdrazil]

It was not a conflict victory but could it be a political one?

Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.-Sun Tsu

[Rush Sykes]

I think we saw pretty clearly the only espionage that occured was ZH giving info to Athens. Oh and that RoK spy.

Im unsure whether to pity your lack of insight, or just facepalm. I think I will go with pity.

[LiquidMercury]

Tok,

While I agree with some points you have provided, I do not agree with all of course (though you are more open to discussion then many on both sides).

Coincidence Coalition came about due to the fact that the alliances in the coalition were kind of there coincidentally. Some there for friends, some for allies, some because they felt it was a shoddy CB, some because they felt they had to be there, and probably other reasons as well. I will admit, I definitely could of/should of come up with a better name. I probably should of just called it the blue balls coalition as that would of been great for so many different reasons. Would of been the BBC which we could of done PR newsbroad casts which would of been entertaining for sure. So there's the reason that it was called the Coincidence Coalition, and I admit it's not the greatest name ever, but at least now I hope people will have a bit of understanding as to where that came about.

In regards to CC's performance. I will disagree with you here in the fact that what started out as most assuredly a beat down, turned into an opportunity to win (I have agreed previously that this was possible but the odds did favor the other side, I'm pretty objective about it) to eventual white peace for all parties. I think in that sense it was a victory of sorts for avoiding a relatively dumb war in my eyes.

Another victory I speak of is not just for CC or for SC (SuperComplaints or if they prefer the term SuperGreivances, as I do not intend to insult, I'm just unsure what they preferred to be called) but is a victory for CN. We as a community saw two conflicting parties that were engaged in war capable of taking a step back, agree to disagree, and give white peace to all parties involved. I think this is a huge evolution as to what it used to be. I do not know if this would of been the case had things escalated as far as I thought them capable of going. I am optimistic though that all parties still would of given white peace (this is of course my opinion as a true lover of white peace). I hope that this trend continues, and that even in full-scale global war we can practice this, mainly because it speeds the game up a bit and then wars do happen more often without this terrible fear of terms that will demolish a community/alliance for quite some time making it very unenjoyable to play and pushing players away from the game. So planet Bob, I congratulate all of us for this step we have taken to becoming a more positive community and taking steps to allowing the game to be enjoyed even more by possibly speeding up the cycle of war and peace.

[KinKiac]

<snip> I think in that sense it was a victory of sorts for avoiding a relatively dumb war in my eyes.

<snip>

Isnt that the truth, lol. Nice post. Also, you guys sooo should have called yourselves the BBC, that would have been so awesome.

[LiquidMercury]

Isnt that the truth, lol. Nice post. Also, you guys sooo should have called yourselves the BBC, that would have been so awesome.

Next time, there's always next time. Like I said I hope this speeds up the cycle of war and peace knowing that white peace is obtainable even if you are two highly disagreeing parties.

[Branimir]

To speed up the cycle of war and peace, a war first needs to happen.

[ChairmanHal]

This all pretty much impressed me as being a dress rehearsal more than anything. Of course if you were one of those in TPF that didn't get to dive into PM during the initial phases of the attack, it felt like quite a bit more than that.

[Karl I]

Interesting read; made for a good bedtime story.

[The Big Bad]

Im unsure whether to pity your lack of insight, or just facepalm. I think I will go with pity.

Well your in Athens you should be used to facepalming.

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

If I may add to the speculation:

From my conversation with various members of my government in the opening day or two of the "war", I was under the impression that the plan was for white peace after a week or two. Of course, impressions can be wrong, and I'm not in RoK or Athens, as well as the fact that 4-5 days can make a big difference, so :shrugs:

/endspeculation

[Augustus Autumn]

I think this thread is eating my brain.

People who have no involvement whatsoever in politics shouldn't speculate based on nothing at all. You sound like you're interested in Planet Bob politics, why not try getting involved in it?

If you don't understand this post, I'm probably talking about you.

If this is directed at me you've not a clue who I am or the idiocy I've seen.

This is a pretty good summary. All it is lacking is any idea what really went on.

Ah, because you were behind the scene or something exposed to "the real story" that nobody else saw? Or is this another cryptic TBB post designed to look all threatening-like and intimidate with what might be known, etc.? I've given an assessment of what I saw combined with what I known to be true. The moment you assume there's a secondary agenda here then you've missed the point. You want to do something other than snipe, put something substantial into play.

It was not a conflict victory but could it be a political one?

It could have been. Instead it became a political balls-up for everyone involved from where I sat. Maybe next time people will actually follow through.

Tok,

While I agree with some points you have provided, I do not agree with all of course (though you are more open to discussion then many on both sides).

Coincidence Coalition came about due to the fact that the alliances in the coalition were kind of there coincidentally. Some there for friends, some for allies, some because they felt it was a shoddy CB, some because they felt they had to be there, and probably other reasons as well. I will admit, I definitely could of/should of come up with a better name. I probably should of just called it the blue balls coalition as that would of been great for so many different reasons. Would of been the BBC which we could of done PR newsbroad casts which would of been entertaining for sure. So there's the reason that it was called the Coincidence Coalition, and I admit it's not the greatest name ever, but at least now I hope people will have a bit of understanding as to where that came about.

You know what? That makes sense in a wonderfully simple way. I was actually worried there was some grand message ala Karma being tossed in there. Cheers.

In regards to CC's performance. I will disagree with you here in the fact that what started out as most assuredly a beat down, turned into an opportunity to win (I have agreed previously that this was possible but the odds did favor the other side, I'm pretty objective about it) to eventual white peace for all parties. I think in that sense it was a victory of sorts for avoiding a relatively dumb war in my eyes.

One that came too little, too late to be called an actual victory. Considering the amount of wind up and warmongering nonsense tossed around but such notables as JWConner along with wonderfully pregnant statements from Roadie of TPF to name the ones I bothered to remember the actual production fell short. If anything, the declarations of war by the CC were more like declarations of intent to declare war. A massed collection of alliances, some of whom shared mandatory defense treaties which were activated by their partner alliance, The Phoenix Federation, failed to actually defend anything and that's the shame of it. Their ally got pounded, there was no call to settlement and everybody simply wiped their hands and went home like nothing happened. My lord, but I'd hope this is not the future of the 'verse. If it is best all treaties be canceled. Then again, that wouldn't be the worst thing.

Another victory I speak of is not just for CC or for SC (SuperComplaints or if they prefer the term SuperGreivances, as I do not intend to insult, I'm just unsure what they preferred to be called) but is a victory for CN. We as a community saw two conflicting parties that were engaged in war capable of taking a step back, agree to disagree, and give white peace to all parties involved. I think this is a huge evolution as to what it used to be. I do not know if this would of been the case had things escalated as far as I thought them capable of going. I am optimistic though that all parties still would of given white peace (this is of course my opinion as a true lover of white peace). I hope that this trend continues, and that even in full-scale global war we can practice this, mainly because it speeds the game up a bit and then wars do happen more often without this terrible fear of terms that will demolish a community/alliance for quite some time making it very unenjoyable to play and pushing players away from the game. So planet Bob, I congratulate all of us for this step we have taken to becoming a more positive community and taking steps to allowing the game to be enjoyed even more by possibly speeding up the cycle of war and peace.

So the victory here is a war that ended without a demand for reparations? There's been plenty of that. I'd argue there's been no victory here at all - TPF's foolishness for spying went largely unpunished since the perpetrators remained untouched, Athens and Ragnorok's poor diplomatic showing and rush to war was not punished since they were allowed to back off almost-free and the failure of multiple alliances to honor their treaties in a meaningful way has not been punished since they're running around singing "peace in our time". What we saw here was the apathy of the 'verse once more, thousands of national leaders willing to sit by once again and do not a thing or run screaming to peace mode once it looked like things were going to get series and they might actually not be assured a victory.

Interesting read; made for a good bedtime story.

Your lack of appreciable content is charming as always, my dear.

Well your in Athens you should be used to facepalming.

EXCUSE ME, MR. BAD, I'LL BE THE ONE DELIVERING THE WITTY COMEBACKS HERE, NOT YOU. GOOD DAY.

If I may add to the speculation:

From my conversation with various members of my government in the opening day or two of the "war", I was under the impression that the plan was for white peace after a week or two. Of course, impressions can be wrong, and I'm not in RoK or Athens, as well as the fact that 4-5 days can make a big difference, so :shrugs:

/endspeculation

I've heard that assertion as well, I believe from Athens government. If that was the case, ducky, but for the end of the war message to come in on Day 5 or 6 (not sure which, not sure where the timeline starts) from Ragnorok government, the only alliance not to be countered, to the effect of "okie dokie, we're done here, everyone pack it in" directly after the string of declarations of war from CC doesn't really speak of a battle plan but rather a scramble to get out of the way. This followed after the gangrush for peace mode, something which isn't exactly the tactic a victorious alliance seeks after they start a war. What does this indicate? SG probably bit off more than it could chew, realized it and decided to call it a day while strutting and keeping a stiff upper lip. Am I right about this? Nobody will likely ever tell me or even admit it, not without being driven out of their alliance first.

[Caesius]

SG probably bit off more than it could chew, realized it and decided to call it a day while strutting and keeping a stiff upper lip. Am I right about this?

You are correct.

Wait...

Nobody will likely ever tell me or even admit it, not without being driven out of their alliance first.

Uh oh.

[Augustus Autumn]

You are correct.

Wait...

Uh oh.

Now you've gone and done it. Meet me out back behind the chemical sheds. I'll protect you.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[Branimir]

Nobody will likely ever tell me or even admit it, not without being driven out of their alliance first.

Nah, the rest of the community, beside those 20 or so irc leadership dwellers, will find out what actually happened here with time. I am sure of this.

It happened with all wars, I am sure it will with this one because the rest of us are left a bit baffled in sense that we have multiple plausible scenarios of why it all ended the way it did, but cant be really sure which is most accurate.

Eventually someone will spill the beans. The trick is to keep around long enough.

First thing first, though. This war will actually have to happen, finish, <insert time filler>, become distant history.

I am glad something is still left of TPF. I suppose it was the most that could have been wished for,...or something. I hope they are content with this. This is the first time, I so think, that a "war strategy" of avoiding actual war at all costs was used on such a grand scale. And it worked like a charm! Still not 100% sure why exactly, tbh.

The time delay of 6 days for a response, mass p.m-ing, political maneuvering in the background, it was a good spectacle for all involved,...exempt for TPF,...though if anything they once again proved their metal by keeping it together under fire and raised their reputation around here some more in many peoples eyes.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Branimir

[Augustus Autumn]

Nah, the rest of the community, beside those 20 or so irc leadership dwellers, will find out what actually happened here with time. I am sure of this.

It happened with all wars, I am sure it will with this one because the rest of us are left a bit baffled in sense that we have multiple plausible scenarios of why it all ended the way it did, but cant be really sure which is most accurate.

Eventually someone will spill the beans. The trick is to keep around long enough.

First thing first, though. This war will actually have to happen, finish, <insert time filler>, become distant history.

Maybe. Since this doesn't qualify as one of those fancy Great Wars you hear about all the time I find it more likely this whole affair will actually be forgotten unless it remains the basis for a future conflict. We'll see.

I am glad something is still left of TPF. I suppose it was the most that could have been wished for,...or something. I hope they are content with this. This is the first time, I so think, that a "war strategy" of avoiding actual war at all costs was used on such a grand scale. And it worked like a charm! Still not 100% sure why exactly, tbh.

Because people are afraid, I think. It's the only reasonable explanation for the deviation from the original terms given to TPF. People became afraid.

The time delay of 6 days for a response, mass p.m-ing, political maneuvering in the background, it was a good spectacle for all involved,...expect for TPF,...though if anything they once again proved their metal by keeping it together under fire and raised their reputation around here some more in many peoples eyes.

How so? They got pounded in another war, this time not because they were standing by an ally to the end but because their leader got caught with his hand in the proverbial cookie jar. I don't see how that can get turned into some sort of valiant stand, especially with the secondary nonsense tossed in about said leader's extra-'verse happenings.

[Elderago]

I support the op

best way to solve vendettas is not with words but rather to annihilate each other.

Edited January 5, 2010 by sircrimson

[Branimir]

Maybe. Since this doesn't qualify as one of those fancy Great Wars you hear about all the time I find it more likely this whole affair will actually be forgotten unless it remains the basis for a future conflict. We'll see.

No, I don't think this will be forgotten.

Because people are afraid, I think. It's the only reasonable explanation for the deviation from the original terms given to TPF. People became afraid.

I think that some people have already made some long term plans and this turned out into something that they didn't exactly expected in such form and would be in the way of their plans.

Plus, as maybe even calculated by the "great wizard" and not accidental at all due to the season, the time delay of TPFs allies and freinds response gave enough time for attacking alliances to hurt TPF significantly, so they got satisfied a bit.

How so? They got pounded in another war, this time not because they were standing by an ally to the end but because their leader got caught with his hand in the proverbial cookie jar. I don't see how that can get turned into some sort of valiant stand, especially with the secondary nonsense tossed in about said leader's extra-'verse happenings.

I don't share your outlook on the CB. As such, we will have to agree to disagree on that.

[Augustus Autumn]

I think that some people have already made some long term plans and this turned out into something that they didn't exactly expected in such form and would be in the way of their plans.

So it's fear that their plans would be upset. I'll happily admit to speculating that this war was some poorly-executed excuse to attempt and draw a massive conflict, one which didn't materialize due to several major players not showing up or refusing to keep to the rules other people set for them. Everybody likes to play their chess game by their own rules, sure.

Plus, as maybe even calculated by the "great wizard" and not accidental at all due to the season, the time delay of TPFs allies and freinds response gave enough time for attacking alliances to hurt TPF significantly, so they got satisfied a bit.

If that's the case then every single MDAP and MDoAP should be downgraded post-haste to reflect the actual standing of said treaties. For TPF to stand in front of the world, demand military assistance and then get near-nothing speaks to nothing less than a failure on the part of its allies to honor the obligations they undertook when they signed their treaties (previous exceptions excluded).

I don't share your outlook on the CB. As such, we will have to agree to disagree on that.

Were I not to have known about the facts leading up to this war back in July or October I would be skeptical as well. As it stands, when I heard that the cause of war involved Zero Hour the reaction was more like "oh boy, here goes". Thank you for being willing to accept our disagreement on this issue and not batter the point.

[Van Hoo III]

Just go back to filling in the blanks(making stuff up), Im not going to teach you basic English.

Those 24 wars (if you want to play it down) achieved peace in one day. Thats the most successful pound for pound blitz in history.

Your blitz had nothing to do with peace whatsoever nor does that even make sense. A counter was expected on day one ... and day two ... and day three ... and day four ... if we feared retaliation, we would never have attacked to begin with. Eventually, we felt that was enough attacks on TPF which, by the way, was exactly what I told TPF on the night we initially DoWed. We had no interest in a prolonged war, reps, or any other nonsense and that wouldn't have changed no matter what day you finally decided to become involved.

Oh hey, I was actually there and involved ... look at that.

Otherwise, the OP is pretty accurate.

[ChairmanHal]

Maybe. Since this doesn't qualify as one of those fancy Great Wars you hear about all the time I find it more likely this whole affair will actually be forgotten unless it remains the basis for a future conflict. We'll see.

Odds favor it, actually. You have now two substantial mega blocs in place and already sniping at each other.

Because people are afraid, I think. It's the only reasonable explanation for the deviation from the original terms given to TPF. People became afraid.

I have discovered when playing Poker at one of the fine casino establishments on the Indian Ocean coast near my nation's capital, there comes a point where you've raised, perhaps even check/raised and are faced by someone going all in or raising the pot further still. If you have any doubt in your mind regarding your hand, toss it--because the opposing player you've been sitting near for the past several hours can practically smell it.

Time will tell if this was a good lay down by Athens & Co. or not.

Truth be told...they were always planning on laying down the hand, but wanted to see just how far the other side was willing to take things.

Edited January 5, 2010 by ChairmanHal

[Branimir]

Everybody likes to play their chess game by their own rules, sure.

Indeed.

Some people didn't wanted this, here, now, and in such form.

Still those that did had an edge,...dunno about their decision from a objective-as-I-can-be point of view.

If that's the case then every single MDAP and MDoAP should be downgraded post-haste to reflect the actual standing of said treaties. For TPF to stand in front of the world, demand military assistance and then get near-nothing speaks to nothing less than a failure on the part of its allies to honor the obligations they undertook when they signed their treaties (previous exceptions excluded).

Well, that near-nothing did save them a bit. Its a complexed issue, hurling into war would arguebly be much worse scenario,...or would it,...anyway I only hope that TPF is content with this all.

That is the only thing I wish for.

Thank you for being willing to accept our disagreement on this issue and not batter the point.

It was debated to death. Nobody will change anybodies mind now about it.

[Augustus Autumn]

Your blitz had nothing to do with peace whatsoever nor does that even make sense. A counter was expected on day one ... and day two ... and day three ... and day four ... if we feared retaliation, we would never have attacked to begin with. Eventually, we felt that was enough attacks on TPF which, by the way, was exactly what I told TPF on the night we initially DoWed. We had no interest in a prolonged war, reps, or any other nonsense and that wouldn't have changed no matter what day you finally decided to become involved.

Oh hey, I was actually there and involved ... look at that.

Otherwise, the OP is pretty accurate.

I have discovered when playing Poker at one of the fine casino establishments on the Indian Ocean coast near my nation's capital, there comes a point where you've raised, perhaps even check/raised and are faced by someone going all in or raising the pot further still. If you have any doubt in your mind regarding your hand, toss it--because the opposing player you've been sitting near for the past several hours can practically smell it.

Time will tell if this was a good lay down by Athens & Co. or not.

Truth be told...they were always planning on laying down the hand, but wanted to see just how far the other side was willing to take things.

I'm going to synthesize a Hoo post and a Hal post... Admin help me.

First, Hoo, thanks for taking the time to respond. The bigger powers of the 'verse usually don't step downstairs to comment on my ramblings so cheers to that. While I'm sure the intent of Ragnorok et al was to pound TPF for as much as it was worth and then get the heck out as fast as possible there's a difference between presentation when you do it on your timeline (and it'd be a mighty coincidence if it fell on the same day as CC countered) or doing it on someone else's. The move into peacemode certainly didn't come across as an SG tactic and the peace settlement doesn't speak of being on your terms either. You guys got what you wanted, cool, but it still looks slapdash to myself and a number of persons out there from the look of things.

Second, Hal makes a good point which I think has more bearing on Athens than the other alliances (though \m/ is nutty so it could apply to them too). Athens charged out a pretty damning bit of evidence, took itself to war with three other alliances and looked pleased as kibbles with itself. Things went and backfired when not everybody bought the cause for war on its own merits. Then things backfired a bit more with the M*A*S*H cancellation. They the peacemode thing started up. If I were Athens government I'd have been looking to bail really fast at that point too and then, low and behold, the menacing-yet-merciful Coincidence Coalition arrives and gives that opening. Chips went down, people realized they were pushing it and went home.

Will any of this be remembered? Hal says yes. I still remain unconvinced that the 'verse at large has the attention span or fortitude to take away some real lessons here. We'll see a repeat of this nonsense because this conflict was a repeat of previous nonsense.

Well, that near-nothing did save them a bit. Its a complexed issue, hurling into war would arguebly be much worse scenario,...or would it,...anyway I only hope that TPF is content with this all.

As noted above, the truth across-the-board probably lies between the positions taken by Alterego and Hoo as far as the whole SG component goes - SG had a game plan with a schedule, the Coalition showed and upset that schedule a bit but didn't change the primary objectives which were achieved. I take issue with either side calling this a victory since for SG they failed to bring the person(s) behind the scheme into the fight and for CC since they didn't actually do anything aside from strut.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[Il Impero Romano]

Will any of this be remembered? Hal says yes. I still remain unconvinced that the 'verse at large has the attention span or fortitude to take away some real lessons here. We'll see a repeat of this nonsense because this conflict was a repeat of previous nonsense.

As noted above, the truth across-the-board probably lies between the positions taken by Alterego and Hoo as far as the whole SG component goes - SG had a game plan with a schedule, the Coalition showed and upset that schedule a bit but didn't change the primary objectives which were achieved. I take issue with either side calling this a victory since for SG they failed to bring the person(s) behind the scheme into the fight and for CC since they didn't actually do anything aside from strut.

Two points.

First, this will be remembered, in a way, only because a fiction created during the conflict by some parties on the CC end may or may not end up a reality (at least perception wise) due to the reaction some on that same side had to it. I'll leave it at that.

Second, there was no schedule to be interrupted, no grander plan. If you want proof, think about it...all that needed to be done was a refusal to give a second peace offer and everyone would have been drawn in, etc. Punishing TPF was never ancillary to a grander goal, it was the whole goal from the very start. Giving peace and not widening the conflict reinforces this notion, and there could not have been a failure to bring in anyone as the only one desired to be in was TPF. CC could also not have failed, as they had nothing to gain if the matter widened.

That being said, I agree that there was no winner and everyone lost here, however my perspective is mainly due to my first point.

...also, the discussion in this thread is so civil its almost scary...I'm not sure how to handle it.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Il Impero Romano