Smashed Indeed

[The Feather]

o/\o

[Bob Janova]

I did not make the claims of spying in my op nor did I claim any concrete proof of them providing information to our enemy.

Then why did you invoke a clause which requires it?

M*A*S*H has first hand knowledge of a direct threat against Athens. They were unwilling to help or defend us against this threat. Nor even tell us about it.

What threat? There is no threat to Athens beyond that which you have brought upon yourself by launching an aggressive war.

After many attempts of communication it was made clear that M*A*S*H would instead defend Purple Unity against our planned Preemptive strike. (Bad Intel even with full logs from our planning room)

You explained below that you weren't planning such a strike, but should one occur, of course they would defend them. That is expected considering their treaties.

After witnessing the Gov of M*A*S*H in both planning rooms (not being informed) , no room to solve this matter diplomatically , being told by then that this was a glorified tech raid , no willingness to defend us , shown full logs kept of our planning room even after they said they would not help us it was decided prudent to cancel without the 72 hour timer.

Prudent? Prudence doesn't override the wording of the treaty. If you think that not helping you face the consequences of your actions is sufficient to cancel, then fair enough, but you can cancel through the normal clause without trying to make it all look to be M*A*S*H's fault.

If M*A*S*H wants to fight on another side let not our "piece of paper" keep them from doing all they want.

If you initiate a war which is likely to implicate their allies, it shouldn't surprise you that they side with the defenders.

[Petrovich4]

I did not make the claims of spying in my op nor did I claim any concrete proof of them providing information to our enemy.

And yet your members and allies assert that MASH provided evidence to the enemy as though it is common, concrete knowledge.

M*A*S*H has first hand knowledge of a direct threat against Athens. They were unwilling to help or defend us against this threat. Nor even tell us about it. After I attempted diplomatically to resolve this we could not. This alone is reason enough to cancel our treaty

Athens declared an offensive war. They didn't want to activate the oP. They sure would have honoured the 'D' part if your alliance knew anything about them. Your coalition is trying to spin spying as an offensive action - the first in CN. Then your coalition members goad the opposite side to counter attack...um I mean attack along with TPF, um no, wait, I mean counter attack... wait. I got confused.

After witnessing the Gov of M*A*S*H in both planning rooms (not being informed) , no room to solve this matter diplomatically , being told by then that this was a glorified tech raid , no willingness to defend us , shown full logs kept of our planning room even after they said they would not help us it was decided prudent to cancel without the 72 hour timer.

You need to read the logs that MASH posted. It nukes your assertions. Many people are still waiting for a rebuttal to those logs that verify MASH's stance.

If M*A*S*H wants to fight on another side let not our "piece of paper" keep them from doing all they want.

Whether they do or not is totally up to them. By the way you and others have conducted yourself, I can tell you this: they won't be fighting for you.

[Locke]

Yeah...seems like a typical Athens cancellation to me. And once again, the reasons behind it are unfounded, !@#$%^&* speculations shown to be wrong...M*A*S*H, I could have told you months ago you'd be better off without Athens, and were I keen to mettle I probably would have. Still, all's well that ends well, and I'm glad to see you away from them.

o/ M*A*S*H

o/ Purple

And I still love you, Flonker.

[King Srqt]

lol.

you really tried to force MASH in on this with a defensive clause? Pathetic.

[Flonker]

lol.

you really tried to force MASH in on this with a defensive clause? Pathetic.

Yeah, well, after this all hit the fan, Raccoon tried to tell me he was being sarcastic when he said we were already technically at war with TPF. Prob is, I didn't have the heart to tell him my sense of humour had been surgically removed at a young age.

Course, he coulda just asked around...

Yeah...seems like a typical Athens cancellation to me. And once again, the reasons behind it are unfounded, !@#$%^&* speculations shown to be wrong...M*A*S*H, I could have told you months ago you'd be better off without Athens, and were I keen to mettle I probably would have. Still, all's well that ends well, and I'm glad to see you away from them.

o/ M*A*S*H

o/ Purple

And I still love you, Flonker.

For the most part, I'm gonna keep quiet abbout that. Yeah, we got warned about Athens. We chose to ignore said warnings, and here we are.

But Locke, keep in mind that Singer might get jealous of you.

Edited December 30, 2009 by Flonker

[Flonker]

Oh, and another thing that's been brought to my attention:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=2068127

Seems mhawk may have gone into peacemode in order to go on vacation, due to the escalating climate ingame. That doesn't require a 'leak' of 'sensitive military plans', does it?

[zzzptm]

So... a timeline of events...

1. Lots of crazy OOC stuff I don't even want to get into

2. ZH forms with former TPF guys in it

3. Athens offers a protectorate to ZH

4. ZH reveals it was supposed to be an agent provocateur - Stockholm syndrome, anyone?

5. Athens decides it's going to go to war with TPF

6. Athens approaches MASH about war, MASH not to happy with the Athens CB

7. mhawk goes on vacation and hits peace mode

8. Athens notices the peace mode, gets suspicious

9. Athens notices MASH talking to Purple alliances, gets more suspicious

10. Athens goes to war

11. All that OOC stuff gets posted here and makes my head spin and stomach turn.

12. Athens cancels on MASH, gives reasons that MASH would not help out and that MASH gave information to TPF

13. MASH then counters that it defined Athens' operation as aggression, not defense, and that it did not give information to TPF

Is that right? If so, it allows for some doubt of both the stories of Athens and MASH. MASH talking with Purple allies of TPF did not look good to Athens. Mhawk going to peace mode for vacation does not mean MASH betrayed information.

[Tulafaras]

as i said there, he said he was leaving on the 29th so him going into peacemode on the 26th was most likely unconnected to that trip.

[Trace]

Is that right? If so, it allows for some doubt of both the stories of Athens and MASH. MASH talking with Purple allies of TPF did not look good to Athens. Mhawk going to peace mode for vacation does not mean MASH betrayed information.

I believe there were more than just mhawk hitting peace mode (as they showed activity on their forums, they began to hit peace mode).

[Amos Malachi]

So... a timeline of events...

1. Lots of crazy OOC stuff I don't even want to get into

2. ZH forms with former TPF guys in it

3. Athens offers a protectorate to ZH

4. ZH reveals it was supposed to be an agent provocateur - Stockholm syndrome, anyone?

5. Athens decides it's going to go to war with TPF

6. Athens approaches MASH about war, MASH not to happy with the Athens CB

7. mhawk goes on vacation and hits peace mode

8. Athens notices the peace mode, gets suspicious

9. Athens notices MASH talking to Purple alliances, gets more suspicious

10. Athens goes to war

11. All that OOC stuff gets posted here and makes my head spin and stomach turn.

12. Athens cancels on MASH, gives reasons that MASH would not help out and that MASH gave information to TPF

13. MASH then counters that it defined Athens' operation as aggression, not defense, and that it did not give information to TPF

Is that right? If so, it allows for some doubt of both the stories of Athens and MASH. MASH talking with Purple allies of TPF did not look good to Athens. Mhawk going to peace mode for vacation does not mean MASH betrayed information.

Only that Athens went to war before number 9

Edited December 30, 2009 by Amos Malachi

[Flonker]

as i said there, he said he was leaving on the 29th so him going into peacemode on the 26th was most likely unconnected to that trip.

Not being privy to his vacation plans, I wouldn't be able to make that call. Though, if I knew things were stirring up and I knew I was leaving town on a certain day, I might hit peace mode myself a few days early just in case. I know what its like to get rushed at the last minute.

Not sayin that's what happened, just sayin it's a possibility.

Still haven't seen Athens' proof we leaked info, but hey, it's early yet, right?

[Andre27]

Couple of things here.

1. MASH are good folks and blaming them on a possible leak is downright ridiculous. Don't you think that IF MASH was leaking secrets they would have given Pacifica/TPF a heads up prior to the Karma War? The mere idea borders the proposterous.

2. Athens you are also good folks and i respect your position towards the GGA during Karma.

However, if there were leaks I'd look at your own members and/or the membership of the alliances taking part in the assault since they were informed a lot earlier.

3. Good luck to both MASH and Athens

M*A*S*H, if you were my ally and did that to me, I would have already be nuking you by now.

@Sunstar: Even though we're not allies anymore i still love you folks at ODN, but you have to stop bending over and remove you head from the dark place where it currently resides. Think for yourselves for once and don't make the mistake of believing such ridiculous accusations.

Edited December 30, 2009 by andre27

[Amonra]

O/ M*A*S*H

[zzzptm]

Thank you to those that provided some further explanation to me. I do appreciate it.

[justavictim82]

This is where, I guess, I have a major disconnect with the rest of PB as a whole. In this day and age of DNA evidence, we find every day, that someone has been wrongfully convicted of crimes based solely on circumstantial evidence. In the world of politics, we have no equal to DNA evidence, that would cover every possible avenue of an OPSEC leak. In times of war, decisions need to be made quickly, and need to be made with the information at hand. We made our decision. Might we be wrong? Of course we might. Might we be right? Of course we might. We do not to prove anything to anyone. We pieced a series of events together, and made a choice. If we made the wrong choice, so be it. The fact is, nobody can ever TRULY know if we made a right choice or a wrong choice. I do however, venture to guess that 95% of alliances in CN, M*A*S*H included, given the same circumstances, would arrive at the same conclusion.I know that denials of this will come, and to let everyone who denies this know now, I am calling you all liars.

Say what you want to about M*A*S*H but Im going to give you a little history lesson. I have been with M*A*S*H since March of 2008. We have faught in 2 wars..... no of which we have been the aggressors. We have faught Universalis and HPS in the NoCB war and GGA in the KArma war. Neither of which we were the aggressors. We came in in defense in Legion as they were nuked by Universalis and they lacked some of the upperend nations to be freed up to fight Universalis. We also faught HPs at the time on behalf of Legion because they were overextended

In the Karma war, we faught on the side of Athens by engaging an enemy that attacked them even though we only held at the time a ODP . We thought it was right because alot of M*A*S*H believed in the Karmic ideal at the time and that a good chunk of our body were ONOS expatriots including most of upper end government. During this time, we sat down and had communication with Athens and decided to upgrade our treaty to a MDoAP agreement. Athens treated us like the best of friends while were in Karma and we thought we would be gaining a powerful ally.

When the war ended, at the suggestion of Londo and Athens, M*A*S*H signed a ODP with GGA as well as a protectorate while they rebuilt. This was Athens idea and they wanted every part of it while still in discussion stages. When it came time to sign the treaty, Athens disappeared and never gave M*A*S*H a valid reason why they were not signing the treaty that they had worked so hard for us to make. They still haven't given us a response back.

After the 'Catch Your Breath Accords' were signed and up to including the TPF DoW, Athens has been mostly silent about any communications with us. This is almost 5 months. The only member of Athens that has been in consistant contact with M*A*S*H was Jgoods. In fact, I have it on good understanding that Athens has voted to keep our treaty at least once since then but also worded 'need better communication' as well as our Ambassador posting Multiple threads (20ish?) with only one reply and only 20 views IN OUR ENTIRE EMBASSY. They didnt take the time to know us and are surprised when we decide not to pick up an aggression clause in our treaty. If they had taken the time to know us, maybe then they would have understand better. The reason we were talking to Purple was becuase they had taken the time to know us and are quite fond of us

As for the Athens treaty, it's no real loss when we didnt really know each other. Thank you for not psuedo-wasting our time anymore.

[Rush Sykes]

Say what you want to about M*A*S*H but Im going to give you a little history lesson. I have been with M*A*S*H since March of 2008. We have faught in 2 wars..... no of which we have been the aggressors. We have faught Universalis and HPS in the NoCB war and GGA in the KArma war. Neither of which we were the aggressors. We came in in defense in Legion as they were nuked by Universalis and they lacked some of the upperend nations to be freed up to fight Universalis. We also faught HPs at the time on behalf of Legion because they were overextended

In the Karma war, we faught on the side of Athens by engaging an enemy that attacked them even though we only held at the time a ODP . We thought it was right because alot of M*A*S*H believed in the Karmic ideal at the time and that a good chunk of our body were ONOS expatriots including most of upper end government. During this time, we sat down and had communication with Athens and decided to upgrade our treaty to a MDoAP agreement. Athens treated us like the best of friends while were in Karma and we thought we would be gaining a powerful ally.

When the war ended, at the suggestion of Londo and Athens, M*A*S*H signed a ODP with GGA as well as a protectorate while they rebuilt. This was Athens idea and they wanted every part of it while still in discussion stages. When it came time to sign the treaty, Athens disappeared and never gave M*A*S*H a valid reason why they were not signing the treaty that they had worked so hard for us to make. They still haven't given us a response back.

After the 'Catch Your Breath Accords' were signed and up to including the TPF DoW, Athens has been mostly silent about any communications with us. This is almost 5 months. The only member of Athens that has been in consistant contact with M*A*S*H was Jgoods. In fact, I have it on good understanding that Athens has voted to keep our treaty at least once since then but also worded 'need better communication' as well as our Ambassador posting Multiple threads (20ish?) with only one reply and only 20 views IN OUR ENTIRE EMBASSY. They didnt take the time to know us and are surprised when we decide not to pick up an aggression clause in our treaty. If they had taken the time to know us, maybe then they would have understand better. The reason we were talking to Purple was becuase they had taken the time to know us and are quite fond of us

As for the Athens treaty, it's no real loss when we didnt really know each other. Thank you for not psuedo-wasting our time anymore.

Thank you for the history lesson, although it was not needed. Nowhere in any of my posts, have I disparaged M*A*S*H's history in war. As for the communications, yes you are righ. The vote was taken, and communication was cited. Funny thing that communication though, it IS a two way street. Was the communication between Athens and MASH poor? Yes. Is Athens a guilty party in that? Absolutely. Communication is a two way street however. I communicate with allies, and potential new friends on a daily basis. Ally communications are not meant to be handled in forum embassies (this is my opinion, others may of course differ). Athens has a very active IRC channel. Again, are we guilty of lacking in communication and "not getting to know you"...Yes...That works two ways. Were your forum posts slightly more of an effort than we made? Yes. But only slightly. If the treaty, and the relationship that goes with the treaty, mattered enough to either of us, IRC is where the relationship would build. The effort was simply not there, by either party. It is sad that it happened like this, but, as I have said multiple times now, I think we all can agree it was for the best.

[Leftbehind]

Are you, uhm...., blind? It would be defensive if TPF's allies attacked Athens in retaliation.

Are you, uhm...., high? Athens started the war hence its an aggressive war. If Athens was just following a treaty into the war I would see it as a defensive but its not how things went down. The fact of the matter is that Athens treated MASH like crap because MASH wouldn't back them up on it and now that they are doing their very best to swing this all on MASH. Again there is no proof that MASH passed on information to TPF's side so I feel that Athens jumped the gun yet again.

[silentkiller]

Another reasonable assumption by Athens, I guess my original post was correct

[Hyperbad]

you know we are having this discussion in every single war i can remember.

The fight about which side is the defensive and which side is traditional!

Honestly i can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand Athens started this war so clearly they are offensive. But on the other hand if TPF's allies counter declare they will also be on defending themselve.

You can take it a step further by deducing that TPF's allies join to defend TPF, not attack Athens, and the way to minimize damage to the TPF and its allies is to make Athens & Co divert some of their forces to a home front.

Frankly that is why i dislike MDPs, because e-lawyering and nitpicking becomes necessary when those treaties are involved with an MADP things are clear, if your ally goes to war you go as well

The problem isn't the type of treaty but the wording. Change the phrasing of treaties and you can avoid these specific topics to e-lawyer about. Instead of putting Defense alone put war after it so it's clear the treaty isn't refering to being on the defensive in just a front in the war. Instead of saying "if they're attacked its an attack on us" perhaps say if they're declared war on or attacked and such is unrelated to a war of aggression or otherwise act of aggression. There are a myriad of possibilities to avoid such vague and easily misunderstood or disagreeable treaties. That or just do away with treaties altogether and if you're real friends what's it matter anyway, join regardless.