An Announcement from Zero Hour

[The Big Bad]

Zero Hour, what did you hope to gain from this exactly?

You still spied, only now your allies hate you.

Well the only info that was passed was TPF logs to Athens. Not sure if that counts as spying.

[Tulafaras]

Your total understanding of timelines and log reading (hint there are these things called timestamps), or the lack thereof, along with your resorting to name calling go hand in hand.

It was called off. You sir, need some graph paper and a Gantt chart. I can draw a picture with stick people and short words if you need.

I have yet to see a SINGLE post/log where TPF called off anything.

I have also not called you a name, instead i have doubted your intelligence since you still seem to try to defend an action which everyone else considers detestable at the least and a clear act of war at worst.

I have read the time line in the first post, i also remember when the NPO peace was signed (the point where Athens stopped being involved in the Karma war). Maybe you want to go back and find a new argument since this one seems to have run it's course?

(edit in regards to your post in reply to AJ since that wasn't up when i was writing):

My sympathies if Mhawk left you without the revelevant information but that is hardly our fault is it? Even when he came back he did nothing except hope that this all goes away.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Tulafaras

[Thistledown]

TPF said very early that they were going down with NPO. There was a period where it seemed (at least to those within the two alliances) that NPO was not going to get terms, and therefore TPF would not see peace. It is slightly different because they could have bailed on NPO at any time, but it isn't as different as you make out.

Sure, it may have seemed like the war might never end- but they should have waited until they knew before actually starting ops. Planning is all good and well, but ZH should never have gotten started.

It doesn't mean that however for you can end hostile actions without telling them what hostile actions you were conducting.

There is a way to gauge the probability of such plans by taking into consideration the interaction you have with them in the lead up to the war, during it and after. Further still, it is always possible to put out feelers for information or send spies to get such information for you. Otherwise you can take preventive steps to insure it doesn't happen, ones which should be done anyway such as doing a history of organizations you consider proposing a merger to, offering protectorates or upgrades to and things of the kind.

All we know thus far is that the plans were put in place during a war and ended just before terms were signed and made official. To take acts of war during a war and suggest they could still be doing it really just means you can take attacks made on you, spy operations on your nations and every thing else then say "what if they do it again" then attack them once more for doing something which might have hurt you in that past war. It doesn't make any sense and acts of war during a war give no indication what so ever on their own that they are going to be pursued after the war has concluded.

You say that Athens can take preventive steps to make sure that no further crimes are committed against them- I would say that this war is the best way of doing it. The initiative to make sure that nothing is happening should not land on Athens, but on TPF, who committed the crimes.

And no, this plan is different from a simple [OOC]in-game[/OOC] spy operation. Everyone can see a demasked spy operation and it is a one-time event. If people try more spy ops against you, you know about them and have a pretty good idea who it was. Athens has no idea if more ops were conducted against them. And the acts of war during a war were not dedicated to winning the current war, or if they were TPF jumped the gun completely. And if they did, the burden to prove that is on them, not Athens.

And Athens and TPF have historically been on different sides of things, so it would make sense that TPF would be a threat to Athens.

[Felix von Agnu]

I have yet to see a SINGLE post/log where TPF called off anything.

I have also not called you a name, instead i have doubted your intelligence since you still seem to try to defend an action which everyone else considers detestable at the least and a clear act of war at worst.

I have read the time line in the first post, i also remember when the NPO peace was signed (the point where Athens stopped being involved in the Karma war). Maybe you want to go back and find a new argument since this one seems to have run it's course?

What did you expect TPF to say to ZH after they stopped their mission, "You can't quit, you're fired!"?

[The Big Bad]

I have yet to see a SINGLE post/log where TPF called off anything.

I have also not called you a name, instead i have doubted your intelligence since you still seem to try to defend an action which everyone else considers detestable at the least and a clear act of war at worst.

I have read the time line in the first post, i also remember when the NPO peace was signed (the point where Athens stopped being involved in the Karma war). Maybe you want to go back and find a new argument since this one seems to have run it's course?

You can not call off something that never started. What part of both TPF and now ZH telling you not only did they not talk to each other they were hostile to each other did you miss?

Edited December 29, 2009 by The Big Bad

[OneBallMan]

I have yet to see a SINGLE post/log where TPF called off anything.

I have also not called you a name, instead i have doubted your intelligence since you still seem to try to defend an action which everyone else considers detestable at the least and a clear act of war at worst.

I have read the time line in the first post, i also remember when the NPO peace was signed (the point where Athens stopped being involved in the Karma war). Maybe you want to go back and find a new argument since this one seems to have run it's course?

LOL. The next time your girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse/SO break up with you, tell all your friends that it doesn't count, b/c you weren't the one breaking up. It didn't end, I swear.

/facepalm....

[neneko]

Using your analogy, they planned to break in. Again, not the same as breaking in. Planning to do something is not a crime. Neither is walking up to said house but not breaking in. Your logic my dear sir, is flawed.

What operation was it that they stoped when TPF got peace? Clearly it wasn't the ZH operation if that one never got out of the planning stage.

Kinda odd coincidence that there was a splinter alliance created with the same people that was supposed to go in the ZH operation plan that never left the drawing board.

Also can both sides stop trying to find a fitting analogy? Seriously.

[James Saams]

I have yet to see a SINGLE post/log where TPF called off anything.

If you read the OP you would have noticed that it was called off He never said it was called off by TPF. Perhaps, my kind sir, a reading tutor might be of assistance?

[Trigger]

Using your analogy, they planned to break in. Again, not the same as breaking in. Planning to do something is not a crime. Neither is walking up to said house but not breaking in. Your logic my dear sir, is flawed.

No, my dear sir... if I've read correctly the splinter cell formed and entered Athens as a protectorate. They entered. Try again

[Ogaden]

Meh maybe you're right.

Alright ZH you're off the hook in my books

[tamerlane]

No, we don't know if TPF would have given up the plans if they had more time- which is the danger of these schemes. And, considering that this plan was only found out six months later, how is Athens to know about other possible schemes? There's no way Athens has of knowing. Once you begin secret plans like this, you become a threat because no one knows if you have active plots.

This man gets it.

TPF, by not disclosing to anyone, opened the can of worms. How can you expect anyone to trust you don't have other plans going on that haven't been found out? There is no way. The only way to ensure that this won't happen again is to make sure there is a sufficient deterrent.

[deathcat]

Actually a more appropriate analogy would be "does a burglar not get punished if he breaks into your house but doesn't steal anything?" Breaking and entering is still a crime.

That, unfortunately, fails to relate to this situation. A plan to: "First, to clarify some controversial points, we should first explain there were three operations being planned and organized in The Phoenix Federation, all part of VietTPF. The most important operation was the one we gave logs of to Athens (Kilkenny and most mid-level TPF government were not informed of this one). The second one is the one Kilkenny keeps bringing up. It involved selecting a group of roughly 20 nations to leave TPF, surrender and rebuild, and then return to TPF post war. The third operation being organized was never put into practice. It involved a member of TPF leading a group of nations to ghost other alliance affiliations and steal aid, cause havoc, basically to have some fun. Here ZH admits that they were surrendering so that at some point after the war, they could return to TPF as strong, rebuilt nations. Also admitted here is a 3rd plan that was only "discussed" a ghosting/aid stealing etc that never went into action or even started.... I know ZH was in the plannings for months before the war.. so Don't assume TPF formed this master plan.. It never was TPF's from the beginning, planning anything was purely conjecture based on a "hinted at" idea from PC that we should never get peace. Outside of that..

Best of luck figuring this spin out... oh wait.. its simply a "tech raid rolled up in a I hate you" from Athens and friends.

by the by.. I have lots of friends in ZH and feel that this is way more blown out of proportion by their allies than ever needed to be.

[Sulmar]

I have yet to see a SINGLE post/log where TPF called off anything.

I have also not called you a name, instead i have doubted your intelligence since you still seem to try to defend an action which everyone else considers detestable at the least and a clear act of war at worst.

I have read the time line in the first post, i also remember when the NPO peace was signed (the point where Athens stopped being involved in the Karma war). Maybe you want to go back and find a new argument since this one seems to have run it's course?

(edit in regards to your post in reply to AJ since that wasn't up when i was writing):

My sympathies if Mhawk left you without the revelevant information but that is hardly our fault is it? Even when he came back he did nothing except hope that this all goes away.

One. TPF can't call off something that is already called off. Two, you need to read the fact that all of this was planned way back in June, when Athens was saying that they would never let NPO have peace.

[The Big Bad]

No, my dear sir... if I've read correctly the splinter cell formed and entered Athens as a protectorate. They entered. Try again

Except they did not do it for TPF, as they were hostile to each other. Kind of a common sense thing, if the alliance you were with is now hostile you go their enemies for protection.

[Sulmar]

No, my dear sir... if I've read correctly the splinter cell formed and entered Athens as a protectorate. They entered. Try again

The way I read it is that ZH had their little spat with TPF and decided to not go through with the plan and only after that did they enter into a protectorate.

[Ogaden]

Except they did not do it for TPF, as they were hostile to each other. Kind of a common sense thing, if the alliance you were with is now hostile you go their enemies for protection.

Well common sense would actually dictate to go to a third party for protection, since being a protectorate with their enemies would sort of open them up for a twofer.

[The Big Bad]

This man gets it.

TPF, by not disclosing to anyone, opened the can of worms. How can you expect anyone to trust you don't have other plans going on that haven't been found out? There is no way. The only way to ensure that this won't happen again is to make sure there is a sufficient deterrent.

Oh I can not wait for Archon to reveal every single time he has taked about an idea or another alliance. Other wise how can we ever trust you? Are you kidding me? You think people should now reveal ideas they have had but, never acted on? Planet Bob now home to the thought police. At least you agree TPF did not actualy do anything other than talk.

[Keres]

Using your analogy, they planned to break in. Again, not the same as breaking in. Planning to do something is not a crime. Neither is walking up to said house but not breaking in. Your logic my dear sir, is flawed.

This is actually closer to a terrorist attack... and planning a terrorist attack...

[Bob Janova]

What operation was it that they stoped when TPF got peace? Clearly it wasn't the ZH operation if that one never got out of the planning stage.

Kinda odd coincidence that there was a splinter alliance created with the same people that was supposed to go in the ZH operation plan that never left the drawing board.

Also can both sides stop trying to find a fitting analogy? Seriously.

Indeed, the analogies are becoming ridiculous.

The operation involving ZH was stopped, but the people in question still wanted to go ahead with their own alliance, after falling out with TPF. Since ZH maintains its protectorate, simply being a member of that plan (and failing to disclose it for four months despite being a protectorate) can't be where the problem lies.

TPF, by not disclosing to anyone, opened the can of worms

But again, why should they have to disclose something which was over by the time their surrender was signed? Did you disclose everything about how you were fighting in noCB to NPO? I'm sure you didn't do anything like this, but you don't have to disclose non-conventional warfare methods you've been doing during a war. If non-disclosure is so bad, ZH should be rolled too – they failed to disclose it for months while having a protectorate involving an intelligence clause.

Yes, it was a dumb scheme brought on by a martyr complex during the war. But it was terminated when the martyr complex wore off and they sought terms. There was nothing to disclose at that time.

[James Saams]

No, my dear sir... if I've read correctly the splinter cell formed and entered Athens as a protectorate. They entered. Try again

Did they actually infiltrate athens though? No. Being a protectorate =/= OMG SPAIS.

[YohanElus]

Except they did not do it for TPF, as they were hostile to each other. Kind of a common sense thing, if the alliance you were with is now hostile you go their enemies for protection.

Hi TBB. I urge you to read the OP. It shows the hostilities didn't start until after we already got the protectorate.

Pro tip. Read the OP and then respond.

[Hyperbad]

You say that Athens can take preventive steps to make sure that no further crimes are committed against them- I would say that this war is the best way of doing it. The initiative to make sure that nothing is happening should not land on Athens, but on TPF, who committed the crimes.

This war so far as I see it only inhibits TPF's ability to make war itself, not conduct covert activities. How will this war prohibit TPF from committing acts of sabotage against Athen's through use of covert operatives?

And no, this plan is different from a simple [OOC]in-game[/OOC] spy operation. Everyone can see a demasked spy operation and it is a one-time event. If people try more spy ops against you, you know about them and have a pretty good idea who it was. Athens has no idea if more ops were conducted against them.

The mechanics are different but principle remains the same. An act of war conducted during a war being used to start another war. This is the sort of logic used to justify keeping people under PZI or EZI. Once a threat, once they do something which might threaten then they're always a threat regardless of if that same act is even being considered for use again.

And the acts of war during a war were not dedicated to winning the current war, or if they were TPF jumped the gun completely.

By "current war" are you refering to the Karma war or this one now? Either way please, explain why you say that. (I get the feeling I'm missing a log or something)

And if they did, the burden to prove that is on them, not Athens.

The burden of proof really is on Athens for all they have is information that something once was considered but never gone through with to a depth where it posed any real credible danger. They're making the claim there is still a danger from a long defunct operation.

And Athens and TPF have historically been on different sides of things, so it would make sense that TPF would be a threat to Athens.

Then by all means I'd appreciate for them to come out and say that. I find a pattern of behavior far more damning then a one time plan terminated for what ever reason before the war it was devised in months ago was ended. However to say that an operation all we know about is it's long since been abandoned is a threat to their security at this date in time is nothing short of laughable without evidence to suggest that they are at the least considering conducting such operations on someone else recently or right now.

[Felix von Agnu]

This man gets it.

TPF, by not disclosing to anyone, opened the can of worms. How can you expect anyone to trust you don't have other plans going on that haven't been found out? There is no way. The only way to ensure that this won't happen again is to make sure there is a sufficient deterrent.

Fair enough.

I am curious as to how you would respond if you found out about a covert op against your alliance by an alliance you were fighting, though. Would you assume that was the only Operation out there, or would you continue the war against them?

EDIT: How would you expect them to bring this sort of thing up? (How would you do it if you were in that position?)

Edited December 29, 2009 by Felix von Agnu

[Trigger]

Also can both sides stop trying to find a fitting analogy? Seriously.

Yes, I really have to agree with this as there are too many analogies that can be spun in multiple directions. I guess my main issue was what was attempted. I don't consider it as a normal act of war. This wasn't an attempt to beat an alliance into submitting. This was an attempt to completely destroy an alliance. They wanted them to disband which is something I don't like.

[Reagan1]

What we have here is failure to communicate. This entire thread has been the same argument rehashing itself over and over like a viscious cycle. The clearest truth I can find is here:

We agreed to end all hostile action as part of our August 3rd surrender, to the Forces of Karma. And we did. Got proof we didn't? Got proof we continued with hostile acts against The Forces of Karma?

We surrendered, and all acts of war ended there. ZH bailed, and defacto, the mission they were given was ended, and thus, no more hostile acts against the Forces of Karma, would continue.

When at war, and you lose, you're not obligated to spill the beans on all the battle plans you had under way. You're obligated to cease all hostilities and surrender, which is what TPF did. The only reason anyone still argues the CB is because people like war and no one likes to be made a fool of or admit when they're wrong. This whole scheme was part of a war time operation and has not continued after TPF surrendered. That's all that really matters and nothing anyone says will change that ridiculously simple fact.