Doitzel Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Yes. The baby died. Kill the mother! The bomb was a dud, let the bomber go free! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantastico Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Reading all of this reminds me of what is or is not done with minefields after wars. Some nations help clean them up upon a war's conclusion, others continue to harbor some hostility even after "peace" and do nothing. It's a weak analogy since sleeper cells are much more dynamic than mines, but it still tells us a few things about war and peace and how people have vastly different ways of viewing the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 They never officially declared it doesnt mean they didnt consider themselves at war. That's cool they should've asked Athens for peace too then since they didn't seem to know, woops? Then athens should have approached TPF for reparations once it was brought to light and tried to work it out diplomatically. Wouldn't restitution consist of reps and perhaps other demands then if Athens were involved in these peace negotiations? I mean TPF was already beaten about as badly as it could have been in the war (they haven't grown much since either) and going at them a second time as opposed to just sitting back down at the negotiation table as it should have been done months ago doesn't seem to fit with the idea of restitution, if anything this is more like revenge. Really this is all personal opinion. If you guys are going to go to diplomatic means for every instance possible then that's fine, some people have limits on what they can put up with. From seeing TPF's responses thus far it doesn't look like "negotiations" would've accomplished anything except let TPF hit peace mode and organize its allies better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentkiller Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) I have proof TPF conspired to spy. I have no proof of TPF ever ending this conspiracy.That's the point. The onus is on TPF here. So you are just making things up as you go along? nice to know. normally the party accusing another of commiting a crime they are supposed to back it up with proof as well but I am sure your "reasonable" assumption is enough. Just like Athens made a resonable assumption that TSI was leaking stuff and WF ressonably assumed that KDII was ordering his alliance to attack them. edit: So mhawk and co are supposed to give you all the irc logs/forums pm's etc from the time they surrendered till now to prove they didnt spy? Edited December 28, 2009 by silentkiller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Oh, I am sure they would... If it was brought to light when it was supposed to I must have missed the "please disclose all other acts of war that you may have made during this conflict" clause of TPF's terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bower3aj Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 ok next question... TPF clearly was working towards bringing down Athens, even if the attempt to do so ended before they surrendered. And, sure RoK is allied to Athens, so they could go in with them, but that's not the reason stated: It has came to our attention that mhawk and TPF plotted and conspired against Ragnarok. Now really... I would expect better from Hoo in this. RoK being like GOD and \m/ and attacking to back up their ally would be far more acceptable than this CB. Athens has shown that steps were actually taken against Athens, so while Athens apparently lives in some crazy world where time does some weird things, they still have something. RoK has that their name was brought up and... well... that's it. It seems that they were mentioned in the planning stages but then discarded and all effort went towards Athens. Now, is there a single leader on Bob willing to say that they don't look at multiple options when preparing military action? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 The bomb was a dud, let the bomber go free! If he had already served his sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 ZH ending it does not absolve you of responsibility. I don't understand why that is a hard concept to accept. How can TPF order ZH to end it - as everyone is claiming they should have done - if ZH have already ended it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 TPF had valid reasons to commit war acts against both alliances in regards to the Karma war. Seeing as though TPF was already defeated and surrendered and completed terms for that war declaring on them months later for it seems idiotic at best. Err..they did? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I must have missed the "please disclose all other acts of war that you may have made during this conflict" clause of TPF's terms. Therefore not absolving them of that particular act, merely giving them peace for the original reason for that whole war starting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neneko Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) Look we have an admitance of guilt already. TPF have confirmed that they did not break off the operation, ZH did that. We also have logs confirming that ZH broke this off in late august. <edit>should probably add here that TPF got peace in the begining of august</edit> That's almost a month where TPF let the operation run freely and even after that they didn't take any steps to stop the operation, ZH did that. imho spying on a alliance for a month after the war ends is a perfectly valid cb Edited December 28, 2009 by neneko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 If he had already served his sentence. Except he hasn't, because this crime was discovered weeks after his release. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderJerusalem Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I must have missed the "please disclose all other acts of war that you may have made during this conflict" clause of TPF's terms. And I must have missed the universal "it's ok to spy on alliances you're not at war with" chapter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I have proof TPF conspired to spy. I have no proof of TPF ever ending this conspiracy. That's the point. The onus is on TPF here. You also have no proof that Vox members have stopped their pre-Karma War spy rings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 edit: So mhawk and co are supposed to give you all the irc logs/forums pm's etc from the time they surrendered till now to prove they didnt spy? No, just the specific logs showing he called it off are sufficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 How can TPF order ZH to end it - as everyone is claiming they should have done - if ZH have already ended it? So ZH ending it absolves Mhawk from the responsibility of ever starting it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 You also have no proof that Vox members have stopped their pre-Karma War spy rings. And as soon as someone provides proof of them continuing to spy, I will be right with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 You also have no proof that Vox members have stopped their pre-Karma War spy rings. That's irrelevant. We made peace with everyone we conducted operations on. They made independent decisions to let us be on our way -- a chance that Athens never got. So again, stop bringing us up. Unlike mhawk when we ended our wars we made sure to tie up our loose ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBone Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I have a few semi unrelated questions. What in god's name made you think this plan was a good idea to begin with? Why did you pick people who weren't at war with you? I mean honestly, you saw how good blackstone collusion worked out for you, what would make you think a 2.0 would have better results? I never said it was a good/smart plan, only that it ended before we were granted terms. I think the reasons for discussing RoK and Athens was due to their willingness to have mergers/fold-ins.....and they were both very vocal members of the coalition we were at war with. Apples & oranges really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadshot Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 They didn't just say they didn't like Athens, they didn't just say they would like Athens destroyed, they actually started a plan to destroy Athens, which as far as I can tell only ended because ZH backed out.That's different from, I don't like NPO, or I'm going to create a power bloc which can balance out Q. It was an active attempt to destroy Athens. And I have been privvy to conversations in the past of numerous alliances plotting to take down another, and have watched as the world moaned on their behalf. This is no different. Damnable evidence taken out of context. The only difference this time is those that bemoaned it before can revel the surprise attack this time. Really, who cares? Everyone got the drama they wanted, and the haters get to see TPF get rolled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayzell Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) Why not carry this act on, I don't know, an alliance they were at war withTheir intent is then shown to be just to harm Athens. That's a leap in logic. Just because they committed an act of war against an alliance they were not legally at war with does not mean that said act was not related to a war that they were in. In fact, it's more logical to assume that the Karma war was related to the acts as there isn't any other clear motivation for them to do this, especially while they were at war. Also that's fine, I'm used to TOP playing devil's advocate whenever there's a chance of infra being lost Just because we like to keep the peace doesn't mean we're afraid of war. Also, few of us care about infra, it's all about the tech Edited December 28, 2009 by Hayzell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentkiller Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) No, just the specific logs showing he called it off are sufficient. So TPF was supposed to make another splinter alliance and then tell them they didnt want their services anymore before you could be sure that TPF had stopped their plotting? AFter all they cant tell zero hour that they didnt want their services after zero hour already quit(before TPF surrendered). I can imagine. Zerohour: hey I dont wanna do this anymore. I quit Mhawk: you cant quite. you are fired! Edited December 28, 2009 by silentkiller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixoux Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I hate Athens and GOD and am thrilled to be facing a nation from each AA.The math is not on my side in this one......but Imma go down swinging. Glad we could oblige! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 That's irrelevant. We made peace with everyone we conducted operations on. They made independent decisions to let us be on our way -- a chance that Athens never got. So again, stop bringing us up. Unlike mhawk when we ended our wars we made sure to tie up our loose ends. But can you prove you've ever stopped the spying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thistledown Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Oh and they surrendered to the coalition they were at war with, but lets ignore that. Well, Athens never signed that in case you missed it. Meaning they didn't condone or acknowledge the surrender, if you want to go all e-lawyer, which it seems you do. But let's ignore that. You're missing it. It wasn't a failed plan. It could neither succeed nor fail due it's dying during birth.Yes. The baby died. Kill the mother! I really can't say it better than Doitzel, but. If the baby dies during childbirth, it would be a failed childbirth. And the birth of a plan is when it's thought up. Unless it got clogged up somewhere in mhawk's brain, that's really not working. If he had already served his sentence. This is an argument I don't understand. People seem to be saying, "this plan was started during the Karma War, TPF lost in the Karma War, they've paid." But the Karma War was fought for a wide variety of Hegemony transgressions, leading up to mhawk and co. attacking OV. Even if it was formed during Karma, a plan to destroy an alliance you're not at war with (to e-lawyers: no war declared, no war exists) months in the future seems to be retribution, not an attempt to destroy aggressors. Which would make it a seperate incident, and not atoned for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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