FOK announcement

[Baden-Württemberg]

Hey kids!

While I'm sorry that relations sunk to the point of a cancellation, I feel the need to offer a clarification.

There was never a plan to make a bloc include the LEO signatories minus FOK. If you are basing your conclusions off of the statement of a single member of our legislative branch, then frankly, there is something wrong with you. I love Proximus dearly, but sometimes he says silly things, and this is one such occasion.

Now, I'm not going to stop ya'll from spouting that line, but I felt obligated to highlight the idiocy inherent in doing so. So please, carry on.

Best of luck to you, FOK.

You are running something against a wall. Hint: It's not FOK!

[mattski133]

Well, this sure puts our friends/PIAT partners at TR in a real bind.

I shall be watching Orange with great interest in the coming weeks.

Still love 'em both, just the same.

EDIT: Uh, I guess I should clarify something since it keeps coming up. During all these LEO2.0 talks I don't believe anyone ever considered seriously leaving FOK! out of it, lol.

This seems to stem from the first, very first meeting that we had some time ago where I did not get ahold of anyone from FOK! until after the meeting had started. Either way, I have to caution against reading and making government level decisions on logs that-

a) weren't given to you with any context.

B) you were not a part of.

c) involve months of conversation that you were also not a part of.

I feel compelled to say if anything from tR government is ever dug up and made public the people who make it public would have a very rude response from us.

Edited December 25, 2009 by mattski133

[Cataduanes]

This is what you get when you try to backstab us.

Goodbye ODN, my opinion about you guys has dropped to an all time low.

You honestly believe that there was a malicious plan at hand?? a backstab?? seriously Erik??? , if anything it was a lack of thought and care more than a malicious agenda but i am sure no words i or anyone else can say will persuade you otherwise.

Ciao FOK

[Locke]

To those saying "they never wanted to keep FOK out of LEO2"...the plans to try to reduce FOK's influence and, as Bob put it, to make FOK wear the dress in the relationship, doesn't exactly sound like a particularly good way to treat allies either.

[erikz]

You honestly believe that there was a malicious plan at hand?? a backstab?? seriously Erik??? , if anything it was a lack of thought and care more than a malicious agenda but i am sure no words i or anyone else can say will persuade you otherwise.

Ciao FOK

Its nothing against you personally Cata, you know I hold you in high regard.

[Thizzland]

I must agree with Craig and most of the MK members.

Sad to see two of our closest allies drift apart.

Hopefully the worst is over and orange relations will make a strong rebound in the future.

o7

[Cataduanes]

Its nothing against you personally Cata, you know I hold you in high regard.

I know mate, this whole mess has sadden me greatly

[kriekfreak]

Still love 'em both, just the same.

EDIT: Uh, I guess I should clarify something since it keeps coming up. During all these LEO2.0 talks I don't believe anyone ever considered seriously leaving FOK! out of it, lol.

This seems to stem from the first, very first meeting that we had some time ago where I did not get ahold of anyone from FOK! until after the meeting had started. Either way, I have to caution against reading and making government level decisions on logs that-

a) weren't given to you with any context.

b ) you were not a part of.

c) involve months of conversation that you were also not a part of.

I feel compelled to say if anything from tR government is ever dug up and made public the people who make it public would have a very rude response from us.

So wait.. there were more than 1 (one) meeting about LEO2.0 without FOK? And R&R, tR and INT were all present? So when were you planning on informing FOK about this bloc if it wasn't your intention to leave them out? For shame mattski, I excepted better. But I guess it's good to know who FOK's real friends are.

I hope FOK will roll you all, starting with ODN.

Edited December 26, 2009 by kriekfreak

[mattski133]

So wait.. there were more than 1 (one) meeting about LEO2.0 without FOK? And R&R, tR and INT were all present? So when were you planning on informing FOK about this bloc if it wasn't your intention to leave them out? For shame mattski, I excepted better. But I guess it's good to know who FOK's real friends are.

I hope FOK will roll you all, starting with ODN.

I think we're talking about the same meeting, kriek. Unless tR was left out of one ROLL EVERYONE.

Regardless, I assure you FOK was not in the dark about this. Like I said, we had been entertaining this idea for quite a while, and the "meeting" I'm talking about was an impromptu, spur of the moment thing on a saturday morning where we (tR) got tired of talking to one person here, one person here, and instead invited everyone into one place. No one from FOK was available until a little bit later.

You've overreacted a little in calling for the destruction of my alliance, and I assure you our intentions were for the best of everyone involved.

EDIT: This meeting was about tR and ODN joining LEO, and possible charter adjustments. Had nothing to do with LEO2.0, but I can see how someone would think that by comparing two logs from a six month time period. And the parts you bolded, were not in reference only to FOK, but anyone who was not present in the many, many conversations we had over what would have been a awesome, and important decision that is trying to draw a conclusion from them.

Edited December 26, 2009 by mattski133

[Gofastleft]

Still love 'em both, just the same.

EDIT: Uh, I guess I should clarify something since it keeps coming up. During all these LEO2.0 talks I don't believe anyone ever considered seriously leaving FOK! out of it, lol.

This seems to stem from the first, very first meeting that we had some time ago where I did not get ahold of anyone from FOK! until after the meeting had started. Either way, I have to caution against reading and making government level decisions on logs that-

a) weren't given to you with any context.

B) you were not a part of.

c) involve months of conversation that you were also not a part of.

I feel compelled to say if anything from tR government is ever dug up and made public the people who make it public would have a very rude response from us.

the log I saw shows at least one person DID plan on leaving FOK out of it. This person is and was an ODN government member, has been at the center of more that one controversy.

[Venizelos]

there was never a plan to make a bloc include the LEO signatories minus FOK. If you are basing your conclusions off of the statement of a single member of our legislative branch, then frankly, there is something wrong with you. I love Proximus dearly, but sometimes he says silly things, and this is one such occasion.

lol, Prox badmouths pretty much everyone, all the time, but in private

it doesnt mean anything, its just prox being prox.

just because you say you hate half of CN, and make all sort of scenarios and plans, it doesn't mean that you will ever actually act upon them. if that was true, MK would be at constant war with at least 10 alliances by now

we know GGA ...are not petty or imature

i lol'd

the log I saw shows at least one person DID plan on leaving FOK out of it. This person is and was an ODN government member, has been at the center of more that one controversy.

so you can assume some guy in ODN gov didnt particularly like FOK back a few months ago when that conversation took place, which is taking it a bit too far since he was casually !@#$%*ing about someone in what he assumed it was a private conversation, which people do all the time and against all sorts of alliances.

WHAT A SURPRISE. this can only mean ODN is scheming to destroy FOK and turn all its allies against it.

Edited December 26, 2009 by Venizelos

[Yankees Empire]

So wait.. there were more than 1 (one) meeting about LEO2.0 without FOK? And R&R, tR and INT were all present? So when were you planning on informing FOK about this bloc if it wasn't your intention to leave them out? For shame mattski, I excepted better. But I guess it's good to know who FOK's real friends are.

I hope FOK will roll you all, starting with ODN.

You totally took what mattski said out of context. The one "meeting" you're talking about was a poorly organized discussion about LEO. FOK wasn't there because of the time. We weren't "excluding" FOK.

But yes, we eagerly await the Dutch war machine

[Soccerbum]

the log I saw shows at least one person DID plan on leaving FOK out of it. This person is and was an ODN government member, has been at the center of more that one controversy.

IN THIS THREAD, an ex-government member of a now ex-ally of ODN shows that he is here to bash us and not talk sense. FIRST AND FOREMOST, he is not a government member currently. SECONDLY, as someone that was allied to ODN for *years*, YOU of all people should know that one person does not speak for the entire alliance. IT WAS AN OPINION, and at that, I believe he was joking as this was not something the rest of the government felt. YOU are making this minor issue seem as if it's an enormous issue. I'm really disappointed in you, GFL. You're letting your personal issues get in the way of the truth, and that's not right.

Edited December 26, 2009 by soccerbum879

[Some-Guy]

Despite the fact that FOK is TOP's dearest and cherished friend, while ODN is liek, the Über evil villain of everything creation* these days (Did you have a suck $@! Christmas this year? Well, it was a ODN plot AGAINST YOU!!!1. Heard a third-hand rumour that someone said mean things about yo'momma's glandular problems? IT WAS TEH ODN!)...

I just can't bring myself to care about this.

Very sorry folks.

*ODN may or may not be the Über evil villain of everything in creation.

Edited December 26, 2009 by Some-Guy

[Barnaby von Farter]

So wait.. there were more than 1 (one) meeting about LEO2.0 without FOK? And R&R, tR and INT were all present? So when were you planning on informing FOK about this bloc if it wasn't your intention to leave them out? For shame mattski, I excepted better. But I guess it's good to know who FOK's real friends are.

I hope FOK will roll you all, starting with ODN.

Such eager bits of rabble from a real friend of FOK.

That's not blood in the water you smell, it's kool-aid.

[YoshiRevoultion]

Despite the fact that FOK is TOP's dearest and cherished friend, while ODN is liek, the Über evil villain of everything creation* these days (Did you have a suck $@! Christmas this year? Well, it was a ODN plot AGAINST YOU!!!1. Heard a third-hand rumour that someone said mean things about yo'momma's glandular problems? IT WAS TEH ODN!)...

I just can't bring myself to care about this.

Very sorry folks.

*ODN may or may not be the Über evil villain of everything in creation.

Okay, if you must know, we eat babies.

We were hoping no one would notice - but then someone found these logs* and now everyone thinks we're scum. D:

*Logs are VERY real and should be a definite reason why every ally of ODN should cancel right away - no one wants to be allies with baby eaters like us.

Edited December 26, 2009 by YoshiRevoultion

[EgoFreaky]

IN THIS THREAD, an ex-government member of a now ex-ally of ODN shows that he is here to bash us and not talk sense. FIRST AND FOREMOST, he is not a government member currently. SECONDLY, as someone that was allied to ODN for *years*, YOU of all people should know that one person does not speak for the entire alliance. IT WAS AN OPINION, and at that, I believe he was joking as this was not something the rest of the government felt. YOU are making this minor issue seem as if it's an enormous issue. I'm really disappointed in you, GFL. You're letting your personal issues get in the way of the truth, and that's not right.

Although GFL understandably feels stronger about this issue then anyone else offcourse, he is right that it was 1 of several ODN gov members to make questionable statements. It's easy to contradict every issue but I suggest to take a step back and look at the whole picture. Perhaps then you understand how bad ODN looked in all these happenings even if it was never their true intention to cause harm.

So wait.. there were more than 1 (one) meeting about LEO2.0 without FOK? And R&R, tR and INT were all present? So when were you planning on informing FOK about this bloc if it wasn't your intention to leave them out? For shame mattski, I excepted better. But I guess it's good to know who FOK's real friends are.

I hope FOK will roll you all, starting with ODN.

No there weren't any more meetings where we took part in, I seriously doubt INT was in any more then this one. And knowing Mattski I seriously doubt he would EVER agree to form a bloc without FOK.

As for ODN, I read all these nice things about how it's normal to have these talks.. well the rest seems to disagree, so either we are all liars, or we have different standards. Seeing we don't have these kind of talks (and I may hope FOK hasn't either) there is no other way to react to this.

Would things that have been said ever been really done? Probably not, mostly because FOK has real friends who would never allow it and LEO isn't just an ordinary NS bloc but is based on a deep friendship and mutual respect. Something that FOK (being by far the strongest party in LEO) has NEVER misused.

Also the ODN people in this topic are probably right, even if it all was an elaborate plan it would not pass their membership vote (one may only hope).

That said: FACT is, several ODN gov members have made statements that didn't show much respect for FOK in particular, isn't the government supposed to be the face and voice of the alliance? If you can't take anything the government says for true or hold them accountable for it.. what do you have to go on then? Do you need to talk to every single member of an alliance?

No, ODN gov dropped the ball on this one, and being elected officials they will be seen as the voice and opinion of the ODN. Hell even in the after talks they can't seem to get their story straight, please try again where the logs:

A. Fake?

B. A joke?

C. A hypothetical scenario?

D. A plan that was scrapped because of it's impossibility?

E. None of the above, state a different reason here......

Now I (and most of R&R) still have much love for ODN membership and hope this can be resolved one day, I hope the same is true for FOK. But saying the recent cancellations are; childish, unprovoked, stupidity or because of bruised ego's is plain ignorance.

Mistakes have been made, man up, accept the fact and try to come up with a way to restore the damage done. It's never too late to restore old friendships. As the FOKkers would say "Oude liefde roest niet" meaning something like old love never dies.

And with that I say goodluck to ODN

FOK, no goodluck to you as I know an alliance as great as FOK doesn't need luck to get out of this stronger

[Soccerbum]

Although GFL understandably feels stronger about this issue then anyone else offcourse, he is right that it was 1 of several ODN gov members to make questionable statements. It's easy to contradict every issue but I suggest to take a step back and look at the whole picture. Perhaps then you understand how bad ODN looked in all these happenings even if it was never their true intention to cause harm.

I'm not going to respond to the rest because I would be here all day, and since I still have a great <3 for R&R I will go easy. He is not right in what he said. He's make it seem as if this one government member was speaking for A) The entire government and B) The entire ODN. This is simply not the case, and he's continuing to say things that are deliberately off-key because he thinks that no one will contradict him. He never said in the statement that I quoted anything about other ODN gov members making questionable statements. He was clearly talking about one in particular who is neither in government anymore NOR did his opinion have any sway on the rest of the government. It was never the intention to not include FOK! as far as I am aware. Of course, looking at this from FOK's point of view, I understand why FOK would be upset because things seem different than what actually transpired. GFL knows this, yet he continues to be on the offensive.

[Mixoux]

I'm not going to respond to the rest because I would be here all day, and since I still have a great <3 for R&R I will go easy. He is not right in what he said. He's make it seem as if this one government member was speaking for A) The entire government and B) The entire ODN. This is simply not the case, and he's continuing to say things that are deliberately off-key because he thinks that no one will contradict him. He never said in the statement that I quoted anything about other ODN gov members making questionable statements. He was clearly talking about one in particular who is neither in government anymore NOR did his opinion have any sway on the rest of the government. It was never the intention to not include FOK! as far as I am aware. Of course, looking at this from FOK's point of view, I understand why FOK would be upset because things seem different than what actually transpired. GFL knows this, yet he continues to be on the offensive.

If this is the same guy who was making controversy for ODN a while back, hopefully he hasn't been re-elected. Sounds like a lot of your recent bad PR has stemmed from incidents like that - one gov member making outlandish claims.

It's really not fair to you guys.

edit: Apparently he isn't. My reeding is gud i sware

Edited December 26, 2009 by Mixoux

[Banksy]

As for ODN, I read all these nice things about how it's normal to have these talks.. well the rest seems to disagree, so either we are all liars, or we have different standards. Seeing we don't have these kind of talks (and I may hope FOK hasn't either) there is no other way to react to this.

Well folks- it appears the ODN is the only alliance on Bob in which it's members talk about it's probable future, plans ahead for other future possibilities and talks about how it's allies will affect it's own FA. I really feel sorry for the rest of you.

That said: FACT is, several ODN gov members have made statements that didn't show much respect for FOK in particular

Um.... again- not really. I'll assume you are talking about Prox, Joracy and Arsenal here. Prox said in those logs that he was not happy with the idea of an orange bloc because FOK had so many other commitments. FOK and the ODN don't exactly have a compatible FA policy. Now- the comments he made sounded a bit harsh by themselves- but when read in context (as I assume you have) they are quite clearly harmless. I will, however, concede that you could interpret his comments there as a lack of respect for FOK. But I really struggle to find how Arsenal and Joracy were disrespectful. In those logs they were commenting on how impossible an orange bloc would be because of the concessions FOK would have to make to be more compatible with the ODN. Surely discussing what a potential ally would have to do to join a bloc- and then deciding the cost was too great and abandoning the bloc is showing respect.

No, ODN gov dropped the ball on this one, and being elected officials they will be seen as the voice and opinion of the ODN. Hell even in the after talks they can't seem to get their story straight, please try again where the logs:

A. Fake?

B. A joke?

C. A hypothetical scenario?

D. A plan that was scrapped because of it's impossibility?

E. None of the above, state a different reason here......

Wow- okay. Did you really think before you posted this one?

No one has ever said the logs were fake or a joke. A hypothetical scenario and an impossible plan (i.e. one that never occurred and was only hypothetically discussed) are actually the same thing. The ODN has never changed it's story.

[Gofastleft]

I'm not going to respond to the rest because I would be here all day, and since I still have a great <3 for R&R I will go easy. He is not right in what he said. He's make it seem as if this one government member was speaking for A) The entire government and B) The entire ODN. This is simply not the case, and he's continuing to say things that are deliberately off-key because he thinks that no one will contradict him. He never said in the statement that I quoted anything about other ODN gov members making questionable statements. He was clearly talking about one in particular who is neither in government anymore NOR did his opinion have any sway on the rest of the government. It was never the intention to not include FOK! as far as I am aware. Of course, looking at this from FOK's point of view, I understand why FOK would be upset because things seem different than what actually transpired. GFL knows this, yet he continues to be on the offensive.

lets look at this one quote again

the log I saw shows at least one person DID plan on leaving FOK out of it. This person is and was an ODN government member, has been at the center of more that one controversy.

hummm nope, I didn't talk about the entire ODN or even any of their gov. except for one person, a person who in your wiki is listed in your gov. section. I know because I checked before I wrote that.

[Banksy]

hummm nope, I didn't talk about the entire ODN or even any of their gov. except for one person, a person who in your wiki is listed in your gov. section. I know because I checked before I wrote that.

Prox is not gov- he is the ombudsman. If you read our charter (do you read charters?) you would have found the an Ombudsman is not a government official.

I'll bring up the whole "selective reading" bit again with regards to Prox and those logs.

Furthermore, the ODN is a democracy. In a democracy- everyone does not think the exact same thing. The majority controls the direction of the alliance. Prox- being as you say, one person- is a minority. He, therefore, does not control the direction of the alliance.

[juslen]

Gofast, in all honesty it does appear that you are taking this far too personal. I know first hand that Proximus can stir up controversy, but not in the sense that he has major influence over the rest of his alliance.

During his time as an R&R member, he never once influenced alliance policy nor did he improve or create a further divide among his (then) former alliance ODN while he was in R&R. He was a member that was active and it turned out ODN was his true home. He left without any drama.. we wished him good luck. So to assume that somehow once he is in ODN again he is somehow influencing their government or reflecting ODN's policy towards FOK is a stretch.

Relations between ODN and FOK have always been distant simply because you have two orange team alliances, one with political power (FOK) and ODN which may feel as if they have been connected to IRON and FOK for far too long.

This is part of what has led ODN to discuss alternative options and possible outcomes. As a member of R&R.. a vast majority of our membership hold the membership of ODN in high regard. Can ODN say the same of FOK? I tend to think their relationship is far more based on politics than anything.

So ODN has been drifting from both R&R and FOK on two different paths. Both are very different probably because R&R is a much smaller alliance than FOK. They have been our best friends for years now.

FOK was there before any other orange team alliance. There is no other alliance that is more trusted in R&R than FOK.. both membership, government and political direction.

The same cannot be said for ODN..

And that is why the MDP was canceled.. and now this treaty has been canceled along the same lines. Its all about direction and then you mix in personal feelings and it becomes even more clear.

ODN has its own path...

Mixing personal issues along with actual concrete facts about what this person said or that person said mean very little.

Look at it from a logical perspective. Just as I do not represent all of R&R despite my history in R&R.. members like Proximus do not represent all of ODN simply because of his history in ODN.

Some people keep their opinions in private forums.. others say whatever the heck they feel like. But lets not pretend that that a few opinions no matter how much you don't agree with them represent the entire alliance. These things happen.

Time to move on.

[Amicus curiae]

As a FOK member it saddens me to see that ODN, being the first alliance I joined back in march 2006, is drifting away from us. Despite that sadness I feel that this cancellation was necessary and justified.

[Barnaby von Farter]

Juslen, a sincere thanks for the objectivity with which you posted your last comments.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Barnaby von Farter