Ejayrazz Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Oh okay. I thought from your tone that you were disappointed that Wolfpack didn't stand by Justice "through thick and thin". It was more of a general statement, I'll edit to clarify. Apologies, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Brendan Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 It is apparent, hence my explanation in my post:Be more careful with who you sign with -- which, even with your explanation, still stands and should have been apparent for three years by now. With almost all other treaties, I would agree. However, protectorates are different. Protection treaties are almost exclusively signed between an established alliance and a brand new one: by the nature of the treaty, you can't have had time to get to know the alliance you're signing with all that well. On some occasions you might know some of the founders of the new alliance from previous relationships, but in cases like this one where the new alliance is formed of new nations, you have no real way of knowing what they'll be like. And unlike other treaties you can't simply wait until you get to know them better, because any new alliance with no protector is going to be raided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dejarue Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 True, but to be fair, alliances shouldn't be started by people who have been playing the game 2 weeks. If I wanted to start an alliance, I could go to any number of alliance leaders I know very well and who know me and get a solid protectorate agreement. If you're starting an alliance, you should already have experience and established contacts in this game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejayrazz Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) With almost all other treaties, I would agree. However, protectorates are different. Protection treaties are almost exclusively signed between an established alliance and a brand new one: by the nature of the treaty, you can't have had time to get to know the alliance you're signing with all that well. On some occasions you might know some of the founders of the new alliance from previous relationships, but in cases like this one where the new alliance is formed of new nations, you have no real way of knowing what they'll be like. And unlike other treaties you can't simply wait until you get to know them better, because any new alliance with no protector is going to be raided. I essentially agree with some points you have made, but I make no exceptions; If you truly do not know how someone is in a leadership position, hold no reserves. Also, nice to see you Brendan. Edited December 19, 2009 by Ejayrazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Yeah, I'm with Brendan here. A protectorate is issued to a new alliance in the hope that they will become good friends, but they're not yet there. (That's why protectorates often 'graduate' to MDPs later.) That's why protectorate treaties have the safeguards they do, restricting the freedom of the smaller alliance to sign treaties or declare wars without the approval of the protector – precisely because you don't know them well enough to say 'yeah, we'll back you whatever'. I'm sure there was a friendship there when the treaty was signed, but Justice really trampled all over it with their actions, and Wolfpack have done things exactly right. Unfortunately, that will sometimes be the case with protectorates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Oink Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 As the leader of a brand new Alliance, I am disappointed. Our protectors do us a huge favor, we should be unquestionably loyal. If anything were to ever happen to Sparta; we would fight to defend them, I wouldn't care if Sparta decided to go rogue on everyone. we would defend out protector regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmansfield68 Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 As the leader of a brand new Alliance, I am disappointed. Our protectors do us a huge favor, we should be unquestionably loyal. If anything were to ever happen to Sparta; we would fight to defend them, I wouldn't care if Sparta decided to go rogue on everyone. we would defend out protector regardless. When the alliance under protection goes rogue...it's a disservice to their protector. A breach of most protectorate agreements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Paine Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 I don't think Wolfpack would deny they haven't picked the best protectorates lately. It hasn't hurt anyone, other than Wolfpack's reputation on picking protectorates. So, who cares? Hasn't hurt anyone? A week after they canceled (for reasons that everyone in my alliance is still confused and outraged about), GOONS declares us open for tech raiding and actively planned their raid on us. But no, I guess it's not hurting anyone. That sounds like alot off butthurt to me.Anyway, you're in a six-man alliance that even your own alliance leader bailed on, twice! Who else can you blame? Yes, GOONS declaring a tech raid on us was not an acceptable reason to temporarily leave. I would love to see what you would do in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Yes, GOONS declaring a tech raid on us was not an acceptable reason to temporarily leave. I would love to see what you would do in this situation. I would have not left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaZeAzZ Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Wolfpack has cancelled our protectorate treaty with justice, reasons were discussed privately. Nice Avvy and sad to see treaty cancellations, good luck to both parties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rulesaints Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Better late than never I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonewolfe2015 Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Don't blame Wolfpack for being too kind and protecting long past when they should have. This was a wakeup call for them to stop overprotecting alliances. Justice has made some stupid moves historically, getting themselves in raid wars in the past. Blaming Wolfpack for not protecting them this time after their dumb moves is just low and shows how boring this climate has gotten. If you have taken offense to Wolfpack canceling this protectorate, maybe you should do something about it instead of just calling them out from the saftey of the OWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonewolfe2015 Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Hasn't hurt anyone? A week after they canceled (for reasons that everyone in my alliance is still confused and outraged about), GOONS declares us open for tech raiding and actively planned their raid on us. But no, I guess it's not hurting anyone.Yes, GOONS declaring a tech raid on us was not an acceptable reason to temporarily leave. I would love to see what you would do in this situation. To be fair, you guys were a crappy protectorate to begin with anyways. You were lead by a guy who got himself banned for running his mouth and there was no connections outside of him with Wolfpack. I'd have dropped you guys just as easily as they did unless you showed a reason for me to keep protecting you which I'm sure wasn't there, since all I've seen you do since the drop is constantly take jabs at Wolfpack and not take the opportunity to recoup and rebuild the alliance very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacapo Saladin Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Don't blame Wolfpack for being too kind and protecting long past when they should have. This was a wakeup call for them to stop overprotecting alliances.Justice has made some stupid moves historically, getting themselves in raid wars in the past. Blaming Wolfpack for not protecting them this time after their dumb moves is just low and shows how boring this climate has gotten. If you have taken offense to Wolfpack canceling this protectorate, maybe you should do something about it instead of just calling them out from the saftey of the OWF. Such originality is astounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Paine Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 To be fair, you guys were a crappy protectorate to begin with anyways. You were lead by a guy who got himself banned for running his mouth and there was no connections outside of him with Wolfpack. He was forced to leave for completely 100% OOC issues. Please, do some research before posting. I'd have dropped you guys just as easily as they did unless you showed a reason for me to keep protecting you which I'm sure wasn't there, since all I've seen you do since the drop is constantly take jabs at Wolfpack and not take the opportunity to recoup and rebuild the alliance very well. lolwut? Cookiemonster told as that as long as we are fellow wolves, we would have protection multiple times. He himself and several other governing members told us that they did not care so much about us growing or tech dealing with them as much as having loyal and active members. We did everything we could to remain protected and thensome. If Wolfpack had a problem protecting us, maybe they should have contacted us about it first, instead of forcing our ex-leader to spend days begging to get the information from them. (We weren't even told the reason until the protection was almost expired, for crying out loud.) Wolfpack did very little to remain in contact with us. It was us, or at least ES, who did everything to contact them, waiting for hours, if not days, for Cookiemonster to login, since he himself was pretty damn inactive. Hell, he never even graced us with a response when ES messaged him (twice) about a raid a few weeks ago. Why were we doing all the work to remain in contact with Wolfpack? Shouldn't Wolfpack have done some work remaining in contact with us? Let's also go over the recent Justice protection. Why on Bob did Wolfpack do everything they could to protect Justice, yet we were dropped for not staying in communication (yea, right) and for "threatening other alliances with Wolfpack's name"? (Long story short, BEAzy threatened us in SE and TE over an issue he had in TE with ES, which ES then said "bring it" and then explained that we have a protector.) We were dropped like a hot potato over something so stupid, yet Wolfpack nearly went to war to protect Justice? I am sorry if we are a bit bitter, we just don't like being lied to and disprotected for reasons that could have easily been rectified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penkala Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 WOLF and Wolf Empire are the same alliance. Otherwise, yeah, you might have a point.Thanks, Wickedj and Goose for helping to clarify the situation. Leave my allies alone and quit traumatizing them or you'll have to deal with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wickedj Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 With almost all other treaties, I would agree. However, protectorates are different. Protection treaties are almost exclusively signed between an established alliance and a brand new one: by the nature of the treaty, you can't have had time to get to know the alliance you're signing with all that well. On some occasions you might know some of the founders of the new alliance from previous relationships, but in cases like this one where the new alliance is formed of new nations, you have no real way of knowing what they'll be like. And unlike other treaties you can't simply wait until you get to know them better, because any new alliance with no protector is going to be raided. You mean if theyre secretly a reroll of a banned member? Also, itt CSN agrees with CDT, further more Haflinger agrees with myself and Goose....thats it the world is ending. Smoke 'em if you got 'em Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gambona Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Also, itt CSN agrees with CDT, further more Haflinger agrees with myself and Goose....thats it the world is ending. Smoke 'em if you got 'em I never thought I would see the day Heck froze over, but here it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonewolfe2015 Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 He was forced to leave for completely 100% OOC issues. Please, do some research before posting.lolwut? Cookiemonster told as that as long as we are fellow wolves, we would have protection multiple times. He himself and several other governing members told us that they did not care so much about us growing or tech dealing with them as much as having loyal and active members. We did everything we could to remain protected and thensome. If Wolfpack had a problem protecting us, maybe they should have contacted us about it first, instead of forcing our ex-leader to spend days begging to get the information from them. (We weren't even told the reason until the protection was almost expired, for crying out loud.) Wolfpack did very little to remain in contact with us. It was us, or at least ES, who did everything to contact them, waiting for hours, if not days, for Cookiemonster to login, since he himself was pretty damn inactive. Hell, he never even graced us with a response when ES messaged him (twice) about a raid a few weeks ago. Why were we doing all the work to remain in contact with Wolfpack? Shouldn't Wolfpack have done some work remaining in contact with us? Let's also go over the recent Justice protection. Why on Bob did Wolfpack do everything they could to protect Justice, yet we were dropped for not staying in communication (yea, right) and for "threatening other alliances with Wolfpack's name"? (Long story short, BEAzy threatened us in SE and TE over an issue he had in TE with ES, which ES then said "bring it" and then explained that we have a protector.) We were dropped like a hot potato over something so stupid, yet Wolfpack nearly went to war to protect Justice? I am sorry if we are a bit bitter, we just don't like being lied to and disprotected for reasons that could have easily been rectified. Because ES was a horrible leader, end of story really. I feel bad for my friends in Wolfpack because they are overly generous in extending protection to alliances that DO NOT deserve it. I've warned them about some alliances they really don't want to deal with, but they give everyone a fair shot. As the protectorate I am fully of the school that the protector should be reachable and provide what they can, but if they babystep you through every matter then you aren't worth the time or the air you breathe on Bob. Alliances need to be capable of handling their own affairs too, Wolfpack's protection is something you respect, and seeing as you bad mouth them publicly every chance you get it's obvious you did not deserve that respect. I don't care if they dropped you for smelling funny, there's no reason to try and find pity on these forums. I am glad that the posters here realize that, because it shows that everyone can come together on a topic when it's dead obvious whose at fault (Justice) and whose not (Wolfpack). Furthermore, if CSN, the alliance killing Justice says that Wolfpack did what they could and Justice ignored all diplomatic means, I'd take that as a pretty dang good proof to shut your mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Paine Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) Because ES was a horrible leader, end of story really. no u I feel bad for my friends in Wolfpack because they are overly generous in extending protection to alliances that DO NOT deserve it. Great deflection. Please explain why we deserved to be destroyed by GOONS. What cause was so great and mighty that our micro alliance should be destroyed? We did not overstep our boundaries. Every decision we made we asked Wolfpack about. Our ODP with PoPR? Permission given by cookiemonster himself. ES explaining to someone that Wolfpack protects us to avoid being destroyed? According to cookiemonster, our protection was not an MDoAP. Wolfpack had no obligation to protect us, apparently. None. (Even though the treaty said they did have an obligation to defend us.) Edited December 19, 2009 by T Paine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Brendan Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Also, nice to see you Brendan. Have I been somewhere? Nice to see you too Ejay I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trout Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 oh hay, you guys are still around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 This thread is great. I especially loved all the 'moralists' coming out of the wood work to bad mouth what they thought was an easy target. And as always they were ignorant to the facts, and did not give their judgment a second thought. I wish good luck to Wolfpack, definitely need to rethink the whole giving everyone a chance thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fronz Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 You mean if theyre secretly a reroll of a banned member? Also, itt CSN agrees with CDT, further more Haflinger agrees with myself and Goose....thats it the world is ending. Smoke 'em if you got 'em aww jeez, You couldn't wait 2 more years? At least then those crazy people would have been right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wickedj Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 This thread is great. I especially loved all the 'moralists' coming out of the wood work to bad mouth what they thought was an easy target. And as always they were ignorant to the facts, and did not give their judgment a second thought. I wish good luck to Wolfpack, definitely need to rethink the whole giving everyone a chance thing. That tends to happen in this new "moralist" era we somehow entered. Wolfpack may have cancelled previous treaties under shady reasons and yall are free to hate on them for that one but alas this one is legit...theres only so much they can do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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