Because everyone else is doing it.

[Reptyler]

Wait.

Wait.

Wait.

You are saying that Ardus opposed the NPO to gain good PR, then outwitted Sponge into dividing the OoO in order to undermine the NPO? Were there unicorns and faeries involved as well?

The truth of the matter is that Ardus was a cowardly hack who used a massive misstep on Sponge's part to undermine a longtime ally for a negligible amount of political capital which he subsequently spent while trying to backpedal from an "anti-EZI pact" after his Hegemony handlers expressed their disapproval. Anyone who says differently is a god damn liar.

Outwitted Sponge to divide the OoO and undermine the NPO? Not quite what I said. But what I'm trying to communicate is that this is the way he played the game, as opposed to the "we think the NPO is stupid so we'll throw away our nations in open warfare against them". Instead, you wait for an opportunity like that to arise, then take advantage of it, if it helps you towards a long-term goal. I'd like to think that VE still has a few long-term goals, although Corn honestly had me stumped as to what he was trying to do most of the time. In any case, we view this game as a months-long chess match, not an ideological brawl where you fight until you can't stand, in which case you hope your enemy is standing close enough for you to spit on them.

As for backpedaling on the EZI thing, I honestly don't remember anything about that whole affair. I just know that when it was made, it was with the intention of looking good, while going against the NPO status quo at the time. I distinctly remember VE having a reptuation for being even-handed, for not always being o/ hailing sycophants, for not always carrying the NPO party line even though we were allied. And yet somehow we've developed a reputation for being quite the opposite. Perhaps my vacation saw more massive changes in the Cyberverse than I think.

Oh, and to further what NoFish said, VE honors its treaties. Maybe I should restate that: as long as I've been active in VE politics, it has been a point of ours to always be a reliable treaty partner. VE is not a warmongering alliance (unless you are /b/, apparently), we go to war because we stand by our friends, period. MegaAros can go through and rewrite his list and replace every line with "Honor our treaties because we're not the cowardly type to cancel at the last second".

[hawk11]

BELIEVE

We need more than believing here.

[Reptyler]

And I'm supposed to believe that NPO, NpO and GGA, alliances that allowed VE to even reform in the first place weren't their closest allies?

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Reforming under the VE banner meant signing a pact with the devil, so to speak. We had to kiss up to the very alliances that had helped destroy us, and we did what we had to, even acting friendly to them for a while. To me, it was distasteful. Some people ended up actually liking them, moreso for NpO than the rest, obviously. But to say that NPO and GGA were our closest allies because they allowed us to reform is a gross misstatement. We did what we had to, because our desire to reform was that strong. It's not something that I'm proud of, to be sure, but we did it because at the time we felt we had to.

And yes, I think they would have taken the NPO's side if they were going to win. They took GGA's side, the very alliance that had them crushed because "GOONS were more mean about it D:"

Have you forgotten about the Obsidian Entente? GOONS got the ball rolling for our destruction by canceling their support for our little project, then trolling the living daylights out of us. Later when Bilrow was mocked and tormented in public for kicking us off the sphere, the GOONS and Genmay trolls said "Why does he get all the credit, we wanted them wiped out as much as he did" and tried to take more of the glory for that little stunt. Besides, as stated before, no one really wanted to be fighting on the same side as GGA, but in order to exist, we had to act cordially towards them.

Also, my implication was that VE was an alliance that will do anything to survive, which, as the correction shows, it does. Granted, that does not imply a causation, but there you have it. VE has done a variety of things to ensure its survival.

I did learn a lesson when \m/ met the same fate as VE. That lesson was to keep fighting. Only a coward routs as easily, as both \m/ and VE did. I never bent to the will of my enemies, and I'm better for it. At the very least I can say clearly, that I never once conceded to my enemies to survive, and that is something VE cannot say.

Yeah, if we had it to do all over again, we would never have disbanded. Ardus himself has said that it was a mistake. But there's not much we can do to change that now, eh?

My point was that he was an obvious hypocrite, as you quite clearly pointed out, admitting that all he did was bid his time using a paradigm of "morality" to further his goals. (Remind you of a certain thread in the IC forums?) The difference was that he wasn't actually fighting. Go figure.

Sticks and stones, amigo. Sticks and stones.

[Earogema]

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Reforming under the VE banner meant signing a pact with the devil, so to speak. We had to kiss up to the very alliances that had helped destroy us, and we did what we had to, even acting friendly to them for a while. To me, it was distasteful. Some people ended up actually liking them, moreso for NpO than the rest, obviously. But to say that NPO and GGA were our closest allies because they allowed us to reform is a gross misstatement. We did what we had to, because our desire to reform was that strong. It's not something that I'm proud of, to be sure, but we did it because at the time we felt we had to.

Have you forgotten about the Obsidian Entente? GOONS got the ball rolling for our destruction by canceling their support for our little project, then trolling the living daylights out of us. Later when Bilrow was mocked and tormented in public for kicking us off the sphere, the GOONS and Genmay trolls said "Why does he get all the credit, we wanted them wiped out as much as he did" and tried to take more of the glory for that little stunt. Besides, as stated before, no one really wanted to be fighting on the same side as GGA, but in order to exist, we had to act cordially towards them.

Yeah, if we had it to do all over again, we would never have disbanded. Ardus himself has said that it was a mistake. But there's not much we can do to change that now, eh?

Sticks and stones, amigo. Sticks and stones.

I still disagree with your view on GOONS. From what I've heard and seen, GGA was the core player and the Obsidian Entente was just a part of the CB put there for formalities. However, while I disagree with a lot of VE's actions, I suppose I can respect what you've said.

[Dochartaigh]

I still disagree with your view on GOONS. From what I've heard and seen, GGA was the core player and the Obsidian Entente was just a part of the CB put there for formalities. However, while I disagree with a lot of VE's actions, I suppose I can respect what you've said.

i kinda have to agree with this. GOONS loved war and supported their stronger allies regardless of who it was against.

[Buds The Man]

I don't understand this "NPO and friends would have fallen without Vox because Karma was there already". Really? Karma was where? Hiding in backrooms, allying Pacifica to stay alive, expelling members for speaking out, and licking their wounds from their latest beatdown?

SF while i believe Vox was the Voice of those in the back rooms I dont think your assesment is fair. IIRC Doc said it well that most Voxians had nothing to loose in their campaign because they werent in this to become a military force and could sit in peacemode and continue to move propoganda along to further the cracks in Q/heg.

I still see the arguments that Vox did all the work I disagree, Vox was the public figure head but to say they did it all on their own is unbelievable. I know many like to slap at Hal but I do know for a fact what he is saying is true. There were those in the background laying ground work and working to widen the cracks in Q. GODs Treaty with Sparta was one of the events that allowed Sparta the breathing room to leave Q IMO. That wasnt a Voxian plot that was a calculated move to widen a fissure. I cant speak on what happened in Q as many in this thread know more than I as I was not .gov during this time frame. THere were leaders and alliances out there plotting and Karma would have happened with out them but I dont know how well it would have succeeded with out the Vox movement.

Vox was necessary for Karma to happen in a timely fashion and with out their propoganda machine Karma would not have been such a success. I enjoyed reading the threads made by Vox (OOC laughed my $@! off and thought it was great /OOC) while IC I hated them as they tried to destroy my alliance. They were a key component at the proper time so props to them for doing a lot of the dirty work other alliances couldnt.

I tip my Hat to those in Vox for a game well played and hope that history remembers them as the ones who were willing to sacrifice their infra and nations for what they felt was the greater good.

[Jens of the desert]

Yes, or this place would be extremely boring. At least, more boring than it currently is.

That sentence implies they are still around...Now I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but...