Because everyone else is doing it.

[Roadie]

I'm going to go against the common thinking on Vox and say that Vox needed Pacifica more than the game needed Vox. It's biggest names made the names they did for themselves by starting their careers attached at Pacificas hip then turning 'round to rail against Pacifica. Post Pax Pacifica, Vox's biggest names have left or gone onto relative obscurity. Without Pacifica as the center of gravity, they've lost their purpose. The game would have still gone on and tC would have still fallen without Vox, but Vox made the process a whole lot more fun. Even for us tC members Vox was an extremely fun movement.

Ultimately, Vox was not needed, but they made things far more enjoyable for all of us and will always be appreciated for that. Even by their targets.

Right now, we're in the time of power vacuum that always happens after the fall of a dominant power. It's going to be boring until we get out of this polypolar world and back into a unipolar one. Not because of Vox. Because of the lack of personality of most other alliances as compared with Pacifica.

[ChairmanHal]

There is nothing you know about the leading up to the Karma war that Doitzel doesn't. Your arrogance here surprises me Hal. Some of the very people you cite as laughing at Vox behind closed doors were also feeding Vox the information they needed to fuel a propaganda machine that was highly effective and one that I still believe heavily influenced the Karma war and may very well have been a difference maker in the outcome.

Vox acted when everyone else talked and I am not sure that many of the Karma alliances that were needed to win would have acted if it weren't for Vox destroying the image of Q.

Quite honestly this topic has been talked to death. Why it is still talked about is a mystery, particularly since we as players will never agree on the exact sequence of events...too much player character in us I guess to engage in proper OOC table talk.

However, I will say this...if people needed Vox to "destroy the image of Q" before they realized that they had the power to carry off knocking NPO to its knees, then I genuinely feel sorry for them.

[ChairmanHal]

I'm going to go against the common thinking on Vox and say that Vox needed Pacifica more than the game needed Vox. It's biggest names made the names they did for themselves by starting their careers attached at Pacificas hip then turning 'round to rail against Pacifica. Post Pax Pacifica, Vox's biggest names have left or gone onto relative obscurity. Without Pacifica as the center of gravity, they've lost their purpose. The game would have still gone on and tC would have still fallen without Vox, but Vox made the process a whole lot more fun. Even for us tC members Vox was an extremely fun movement.

Ultimately, Vox was not needed, but they made things far more enjoyable for all of us and will always be appreciated for that. Even by their targets.

Right now, we're in the time of power vacuum that always happens after the fall of a dominant power. It's going to be boring until we get out of this polypolar world and back into a unipolar one. Not because of Vox. Because of the lack of personality of most other alliances as compared with Pacifica.

Well done...you "get it". +1

But you know what's funny? Before the fall of Q and such the common complaint was that with NPO in the way, we were stuck in an unending scenario of curbstomps and less than competitive wars and once NPO was out of the way we'd see a new era of competition, including some genuinely balanced fights here and there. I know this has already been commented on by others but just to echo it: instead of clashes of arms, we have infra building contests, alliances falling all over themselves to avoid wars (look on the bright side Athens, you'll never be confused with \m/) and people going to the suggestion box to voice their vote for uncapping the GRL so that any future attempts at anything but infra building contests will kill the game. What exactly have we (and yes it is 'we') created here? Is this really better? Define 'better'.

[Thorgrum]

What exactly have we (and yes it is 'we') created here? Is this really better? Define 'better'.

As anyone who has paid attention will assume Hal, you will likely be back shortly to tell us all the definition anyway. B)

Vox was necessary, you see there is a large segement of the populace of the game, say thousands who dont sit in the back channels of IRC and get the detail on what someone said to whom after sitting in channel for 6 hours.... Vox performed a public service and gave information to the masses, slanted, biased and convoluted as it was, it was entertaining and enhanced the play of many people.

The fall of NPO and the Karma war is a complex animal comprised of several historical events that flavored the present circumstance (then) and shaped the will of others to bring the NPO down. Yes Vox was a necessary part of that process.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Thorgrum

[ChairmanHal]

As anyone who has paid attention will assume Hal, you will likely be back shortly to tell us all the definition anyway. B)

Not really...actually I've already posted more in this thread than I intended.

Vox was necessary, you see there is a large segement of the populace of the game, say thousands who dont sit in the back channels of IRC and get the detail on what someone said to whom after sitting in channel for 6 hours.... Vox performed a public service and gave information to the masses, slanted, biased and convoluted as it was, it was entertaining and enhanced the play of many people.

Those same "unwashed masses" do the bidding of those people in the IRC back channels and rarely question it. If the unwashed masses are lucky, the back channel people come forth with screenshots explaining why decisions were made or are about to be made. At best you can say Vox made the sales job a bit easier.

The fall of NPO and the Karma war is a complex animal comprised of several historical events that flavored the present circumstance (then) and shaped the will of others to bring the NPO down. Yes Vox was a necessary part of that process.

My time is short for the day, but I'll respectfully disagree with you here. Not with the complexity of events, but with the assertion that Vox was a necessary part of the process. They were not the equivalent of the "Sons of Liberty", though I am certain that some of them still view themselves as such. I'm also done with this topic. I will not change the mind of the man who thinks he won the Battle of Yorktown because his musket ball whizzed past the head of General Cornwallis.

[Thorgrum]

Not really...actually I've already posted more in this thread than I intended.

Odd how a lot of your involvement in threads end with a similar proclomation.

Those same "unwashed masses" do the bidding of those people in the IRC back channels and rarely question it. If the unwashed masses are lucky, the back channel people come forth with screenshots explaining why decisions were made or are about to be made. At best you can say Vox made the sales job a bit easier.

Yes, thats what i am saying Hal hence thier value.

My time is short for the day, but I'll respectfully disagree with you here. Not with the complexity of events, but with the assertion that Vox was a necessary part of the process. They were not the equivalent of the "Sons of Liberty", though I am certain that some of them still view themselves as such. I'm also done with this topic. I will not change the mind of the man who thinks he won the Battle of Yorktown because his musket ball whizzed past the head of General Cornwallis.

Odd you dont find them a necessary part of the process, yet in the prior paragraph you proclaim they made the sales job easier. You bet they did, they took it to the masses as trivial as you may think that is it dosent negate the necessity it served. I commend those who have hours a day to wile away on IRC and make this crap up, it makes the game much more interesting to me Vox enhanced the process that much more and helped to expidite the outcome.

we can disagree then, but Cornwallis was defeated by the support of siege guns of the french, at least thats my view. Clearly I cant change the mind of a man who thinks the Battle of Yorktown was an event that occurred in a revolution, but rather a battle in a civil war.

[Dochartaigh]

But even if they feel that Vox did different things, you cant argue that they were not necessary.

really? so without those cowardly backroom IRC people, Karma would have happened? that is the question to ask yourself. then put that into light with "without Vox, would Karma have happened?" and answer it honestly. Vox did a grand job with anti-Q/NPO/Heg propaganda and showed the world that people can fight against the Heg. but again, despite all those key moments that had to happen, without those cowardly backroom people building a coalition, could Karma have ever actually happened?

once you get the questions in proper priority, you can see that despite all the good that Vox did, and yes they deserve much credit for what they did, that does not mean they were necessary whatsoever.

No, the fact is that it was a multitude of factors and individual that contributed to their undoing; as much as ChairmanHal would like us to believe there was a "master plan" at play I think the beginnings of Karma prove quite the opposite. People were afraid to talk to one another about this issue and that until we spilled it all out into the public eye, over and over, and made it the cool thing to do. The sacrifices of alliances like GATO and FAN cannot be understated. NPO lacked the talent to plug the holes in the dam or the foresight to keep under their influence the key swing alliances.

We all did what we had to do, but essentially asserting SF was behind the scenes carefully knocking down all the right dominoes undetected is rather insane.

who says i am only listening or even listening to Hal? i do know others besides him Doitz. i never asserted that SF was the one solely behind or even behind the scenes.

i simply stated that without those cowardly backroom people, as you yourself put it, there would have been no coalition built up and without that coalition, nothing Vox did would have mattered at all. and if you honestly cannot say that is the god's honest truth, then you have way too much delusions of grandeur.

again, i know in Polaris, many of us talked of these issues long before Vox ever came about. i doubt that others did not discuss it either. Vox made it more public, but Vox by no means made this talking appear as if out of thin air. it was already occurring and no matter what ya'll say, most were afraid to act upon it, but not discuss it.

and with that, i am done as well.

[Doitzel]

It's funny how people don't seem to think that "the masses", whose nations the use to fight and win wars, hold opinions and convictions of their own that they stick to. And I'm the arrogant one? Vox Populi, indeed. Tell me, what's more entertaining for the community -- an international conspiracy that involves a few paranoid alliance leaders trying to figure out who they can trust or a mass international movement that invites the participation of anyone and everyone they can? Hard to fight a war when everyone's already dead from boredom.

We kept the spirit alive, morale up, and sold the brand while the treaty-signers got their !@#$ together (well, some of them did, right MHA?). Meanwhile Hal sat in his bunker drawing up tall tales about the intricate plan to bring down Pacific that he would've gotten away with, if it weren't for those darn kids and their pesky sponge...

[Roadie]

It's funny how people don't seem to think that "the masses", whose nations the use to fight and win wars, hold opinions and convictions of their own that they stick to. And I'm the arrogant one? Vox Populi, indeed. Tell me, what's more entertaining for the community -- an international conspiracy that involves a few paranoid alliance leaders trying to figure out who they can trust or a mass international movement that invites the participation of anyone and everyone they can? Hard to fight a war when everyone's already dead from boredom.

We kept the spirit alive, morale up, and sold the brand while the treaty-signers got their !@#$ together (well, some of them did, right MHA?). Meanwhile Hal sat in his bunker drawing up tall tales about the intricate plan to bring down Pacific that he would've gotten away with, if it weren't for those darn kids and their pesky sponge...

Most of those 'masses' don't follow politics beyond a little of what is in their forums and what is sent to them in PMs. They most certainly do hold positions and do stick them, but generally speaking the masses positions are not well informed positions. A lot of it is simply that they stick with what their alliance does. Hence the Vox movement was followed by an extremely small percentage of the cyberverse. While Vox may have welcomed participation from all (good for them) the majority never knew what they really were much less ever felt like they got an invite. Vox was not a movement of the masses, but simply a group of like-minded individuals prone to self aggrandizement whom proclaimed themselves as representing the masses.

[Reptyler]

It's good to know that the Viridian Entente spent 8 months fighting NPO an allies, sometimes with out hope of it ever coming to an end. It's good to know the Karma nations fought from ZI with only their weapon being their mind and beliefs. I mean, it's not like you guys were treatied to the hegemony in any way, at any time in the past.

It's good to know that no matter how long I stay away from the big boards, some things will never change, Nintenderek.

It may seem cool fighting with words from the shadows, but I prefer nukes and cruise missiles. While you were making awesome MS Paint propaganda from ZI, I was building up another three thousand infra to soak up nukes and stock my warchest. Different strokes for different folks, but I prefer my method.

And don't even start on the whole "You were treatied to NPO you big fat hypocrite" routine. I think VE was one of, if not the first alliance to ever cancel on NPO, back when we left the WUT and canceled the Christmas Accords, the longest-standing treaty that VE held at that point. If we had never treatied them in the first place, we would not have survived GWII, let alone live long enough to have our part in Karma. So quite honestly, good sir, you can take your trolling elsewhere.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Reptyler

[Doitzel]

Most of those 'masses' don't follow politics beyond a little of what is in their forums and what is sent to them in PMs. They most certainly do hold positions and do stick them, but generally speaking the masses positions are not well informed positions. A lot of it is simply that they stick with what their alliance does. Hence the Vox movement was followed by an extremely small percentage of the cyberverse. While Vox may have welcomed participation from all (good for them) the majority never knew what they really were much less ever felt like they got an invite. Vox was not a movement of the masses, but simply a group of like-minded individuals prone to self aggrandizement whom proclaimed themselves as representing the masses.

I'm obviously not talking about people that don't play the game to its full potential and don't utilise these boards... Also, guess what flash-in-the-pan alliance of wannabe hotshots was featured on just about every alliance board over the course of those months?

[Earogema]

It's good to know that no matter how long I stay away from the big boards, some things will never change, Nintenderek.

It may seem cool fighting with words from the shadows, but I prefer nukes and cruise missiles. While you were making awesome MS Paint propaganda from ZI, I was building up another three thousand infra to soak up nukes and stock my warchest. Different strokes for different folks, but I prefer my method.

And don't even start on the whole "You were treatied to NPO you big fat hypocrite" routine. I think VE was one of, if not the first alliance to ever cancel on NPO, back when we left the WUT and canceled the Christmas Accords, the longest-standing treaty that VE held at that point. If we had never treatied them in the first place, we would not have survived GWII, let alone live long enough to have our part in Karma. So quite honestly, good sir, you can take your trolling elsewhere.

I'm seeing a pattern here.

GWII: Treaty NPO to not get killed

Post GWIII: Get killed

UJW: Treaty GGA/NPO to not get killed

Remain allied for months, assisting in the very same curbstomps you oppose.

Karma War: Cancel treaties to not get killed.

And I did fight, for quite a while myself, only entering peace mode once or twice for the minimum time possible. Though I'll admit, it wasn't very damaging, or a large contribution to the war effort, but I did what I could do when you consider my nation size.

Besides wasn't Ardus the one who said that he "Reaks moral high ground," back when he was Lord during ZIPP and WoTC? Sure is easy to do when you delay the actual moral action by literal months with the intention of hurting your own allies at the time.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Earogema

[Defiant]

Hell yes CN needed Vox

[Fallen Fool]

Did CN need Vox? I'm not sure.

Did CN benefit from Vox? Undoubtedly.

Also I can't for the life of me remember how I voted.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Fallen_Fool

[Dochartaigh]

It's funny how people don't seem to think that "the masses", whose nations the use to fight and win wars, hold opinions and convictions of their own that they stick to. And I'm the arrogant one? Vox Populi, indeed. Tell me, what's more entertaining for the community -- an international conspiracy that involves a few paranoid alliance leaders trying to figure out who they can trust or a mass international movement that invites the participation of anyone and everyone they can? Hard to fight a war when everyone's already dead from boredom.

We kept the spirit alive, morale up, and sold the brand while the treaty-signers got their !@#$ together (well, some of them did, right MHA?). Meanwhile Hal sat in his bunker drawing up tall tales about the intricate plan to bring down Pacific that he would've gotten away with, if it weren't for those darn kids and their pesky sponge...

i was not gonna respond but meh.

the masses, as you like to call them, knew of Vox but as you noticed most stayed within their alliance waiting to follow what their alliance did. they did not join Vox and even at your peak you were what, around 300 nations tops? (honestly i have no clue if it was 100 to 300 because i forgot). that by far does not represent the "masses" at all.

as for what is more entertaining for the community, that does not honestly matter. if the question put forth was "was Vox needed to take down NPO?" then the answer is muddied. the answer is both yes and no. Yes because CN did need a morale boost and needed to see that people could stand up to the NPO and survive intact. GATO and FAN stood up but are they the same alliances they once were? Vox stayed who they were, with the exception of forming a gov, no matter the odds.

but those "paranoid alliance leaders" were the ones who actually took NPO down. Could they have done it without Vox, sure but it would have taken far longer to do so.

Did Vox impact the Karma war? in my opinion, yes. their actions sped it up and allowed for alliances to stand behind OV and VE that normally would have sat back and allowed NPO/Torn to roll them.

Was Vox needed to bring NPO down? no. Vox was needed to speed the process up and to encourage alliances and their leaders to finally take action instead of sitting back and conspiring further.

Vox simply put was another event in a longer chain of events that led to the Karma war. but in the end, without those cowards and paranoid alliance leaders making deals and discussing things in the back shadowy corners of IRC, Karma would never have been possible.

this is not arrogance, nor is it ignorance but in my opinion the plain truth. Vox never spoke for the people especially since many of those people were in NPO, Echelon, IRON, TPF, Valhalla, TORN, GGA, and other alliances on the opposite side of Vox. Others were in alliances like Polaris, TOP, GPA, TDO, and other alliances who were either neutral or wanted nothing to do with Karma. The rest were in other alliances where possibly the majority felt what Vox felt but not to the extent as to enter into a hopeless war. The rest waited as their alliance leaders conspired and built up so that they could strike and actually bring NPO down.

so to state that Vox ever spoke for "the masses" is arrogance. i can understand for propaganda purposes saying that you did so, but i seriously hope you don't honestly believe that.

[Feanor Noldorin]

Did CN need Vox? I'm not sure.

Did CN benefit from Vox? Undoubtedly.

Also I can't for the life of me remember how I voted.

Spot on.

I voted Yes.

[Reptyler]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

GWII: Treaty NPO to not get killed

Post GWIII: Get killed

UJW: Treaty GGA/NPO to not get killed

Remain allied for months, assisting in the very same curbstomps you oppose.

Karma War: Cancel treaties to not get killed.

And I did fight, for quite a while myself, only entering peace mode once or twice for the minimum time possible. Though I'll admit, it wasn't very damaging, or a large contribution to the war effort, but I did what I could do when you consider my nation size.

Besides wasn't Ardus the one who said that he "Reaks moral high ground," back when he was Lord during ZIPP and WoTC? Sure is easy to do when you delay the actual moral action by literal months with the intention of hurting your own allies at the time.

Gee, if only we were all as noble and would rather commit suicide than live the Law of NPO. Some of us like to think we're a bit more clever than that; self-preservation is a rather basic concept, even for the most mentally incompetent of our species. We learned our lesson the first time, how about you?

Yes, Ardus said that, although he knew how to spell "reek". Ardus did a splendid job of gathering positive PR for the Entente (opposing the NPO, I might add) and playing the whole "moralist" game much better than it seems to be played today. Then he became the biggest villain on green sphere when he took down Sponge. Go figure. But while I opposed that war, I recognize that it was necessary in order to launch an offensive on NPO. Dividing the OoO was a huge step in bringing down the big P. But at the time, I was just mad that we were treated like garbage. Sticks and stones, I guess. But what Ardus realized that you don't, is that sometimes you have to wait for a more opportune moment to avoid having all your plans ruined and your time wasted.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Reptyler

[Dochartaigh]

Gee, if only we were all as noble and would rather commit suicide than live the Law of NPO. Some of us like to think we're a bit more clever than that; self-preservation is a rather basic concept, even for the most mentally incompetent of our species. We learned our lesson the first time, how about you?

Yes, Ardus said that, although he knew how to spell "reek". Ardus did a splendid job of gathering positive PR for the Entente (opposing the NPO, I might add) and playing the whole "moralist" game much better than it seems to be played today. Then he became the biggest villain on green sphere when he took down Sponge. Go figure. But while I opposed that war, I recognize that it was necessary in order to launch an offensive on NPO. Dividing the OoO was a huge step in bringing down the big P. But at the time, I was just mad that we were treated like garbage. Sticks and stones, I guess. But what Ardus realized that you don't, is that sometimes you have to wait for a more opportune moment to avoid having all your plans ruined and your time wasted.

i am amazed that anyone thought that big P and little P were not already essentially divided by that time especially Ardus.

[The AUT]

Gee, if only we were all as noble and would rather commit suicide than live the Law of NPO. Some of us like to think we're a bit more clever than that; self-preservation is a rather basic concept, even for the most mentally incompetent of our species. We learned our lesson the first time, how about you?

Yes, Ardus said that, although he knew how to spell "reek". Ardus did a splendid job of gathering positive PR for the Entente (opposing the NPO, I might add) and playing the whole "moralist" game much better than it seems to be played today. Then he became the biggest villain on green sphere when he took down Sponge. Go figure. But while I opposed that war, I recognize that it was necessary in order to launch an offensive on NPO. Dividing the OoO was a huge step in bringing down the big P. But at the time, I was just mad that we were treated like garbage. Sticks and stones, I guess. But what Ardus realized that you don't, is that sometimes you have to wait for a more opportune moment to avoid having all your plans ruined and your time wasted.

Yes you sought to self-preserve while others sought to fight. When I look back at what happened I will see the true people who toppled the NPO such as Aros and not the pathetic jokes who changed their stars at the last such as yourself.

People like Aros helped to bring change to CN, you only decided to oppose it for so long then help it along at the last minute.

Edited December 15, 2009 by The AUT

[Fallen Fool]

Yes, Ardus said that, although he knew how to spell "reek". Ardus did a splendid job of gathering positive PR for the Entente (opposing the NPO, I might add) and playing the whole "moralist" game much better than it seems to be played today. Then he became the biggest villain on green sphere when he took down Sponge. Go figure. But while I opposed that war, I recognize that it was necessary in order to launch an offensive on NPO. Dividing the OoO was a huge step in bringing down the big P. But at the time, I was just mad that we were treated like garbage. Sticks and stones, I guess. But what Ardus realized that you don't, is that sometimes you have to wait for a more opportune moment to avoid having all your plans ruined and your time wasted.

Wait.

Wait.

Wait.

You are saying that Ardus opposed the NPO to gain good PR, then outwitted Sponge into dividing the OoO in order to undermine the NPO? Were there unicorns and faeries involved as well?

The truth of the matter is that Ardus was a cowardly hack who used a massive misstep on Sponge's part to undermine a longtime ally for a negligible amount of political capital which he subsequently spent while trying to backpedal from an "anti-EZI pact" after his Hegemony handlers expressed their disapproval. Anyone who says differently is a god damn liar.

[Schattenmann]

No. We never have any need for self publicizing failed politicians and bitter old men.

This is a poll about Vox Populi, not NSO or other, purplier, walking zombie alliances.

[NoFish]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

GWII: Treaty NPO to not get killed

Post GWIII: Get killed

UJW: Treaty GGA/NPO to not get killed

Remain allied for months, assisting in the very same curbstomps you oppose.

Karma War: Cancel treaties to not get killed.

And I did fight, for quite a while myself, only entering peace mode once or twice for the minimum time possible. Though I'll admit, it wasn't very damaging, or a large contribution to the war effort, but I did what I could do when you consider my nation size.

Besides wasn't Ardus the one who said that he "Reaks moral high ground," back when he was Lord during ZIPP and WoTC? Sure is easy to do when you delay the actual moral action by literal months with the intention of hurting your own allies at the time.

Are you stupid or just ignorant? In the Karma War one of VE's closest allies was attacked. Do you really think VE would have taken NPO's side in that if it looked like NPO was going to win? Really? Even if they didn't side with OV right away, GOD would have come in.

Despite all your shooting your mouth off on the subject Id obut you really know anything about VE's treaties so I'll explain why that last point is important. The Balkan Entente (originally a bloc of GOD, Argos and VE, now just GOD and VE) is an eternal MADP specifically written to override all other treaty obligations.

What I find hilarious is how quickly you Voxian folks have changed your tune. Pre-karma you were applauding the cancellations on the evil NPO, saying how great it was that people had seen the light. Post? Suddenly they're all cowards. I won't get into alliances who canceled on the very eve of war - it's certainly murky enough to see why you may think so; but to say a cancellation on March 23 was a sign of cowardice is preposterous.

[Aurion]

Necessary, maybe. Beneficial, yeah mostly.

An another note, the jockeying for "credit" for the war in this thread while quite amusing is also vaguely disgusting.

If anything actually deserves credit, may I suggest luck?

[Hymenbreach]

This is a poll about Vox Populi, not NSO or other, purplier, walking zombie alliances.

Finger on the pulse as usual.

[Earogema]

Are you stupid or just ignorant? In the Karma War one of VE's closest allies was attacked. Do you really think VE would have taken NPO's side in that if it looked like NPO was going to win? Really? Even if they didn't side with OV right away, GOD would have come in.

Despite all your shooting your mouth off on the subject Id obut you really know anything about VE's treaties so I'll explain why that last point is important. The Balkan Entente (originally a bloc of GOD, Argos and VE, now just GOD and VE) is an eternal MADP specifically written to override all other treaty obligations.

What I find hilarious is how quickly you Voxian folks have changed your tune. Pre-karma you were applauding the cancellations on the evil NPO, saying how great it was that people had seen the light. Post? Suddenly they're all cowards. I won't get into alliances who canceled on the very eve of war - it's certainly murky enough to see why you may think so; but to say a cancellation on March 23 was a sign of cowardice is preposterous.

And I'm supposed to believe that NPO, NpO and GGA, alliances that allowed VE to even reform in the first place weren't their closest allies? Give me a break. Fallen_Fool said it better than I ever could have.

Wait.

Wait.

Wait.

You are saying that Ardus opposed the NPO to gain good PR, then outwitted Sponge into dividing the OoO in order to undermine the NPO? Were there unicorns and faeries involved as well?

The truth of the matter is that Ardus was a cowardly hack who used a massive misstep on Sponge's part to undermine a longtime ally for a negligible amount of political capital which he subsequently spent while trying to backpedal from an "anti-EZI pact" after his Hegemony handlers expressed their disapproval. Anyone who says differently is a god damn liar.

And yes, I think they would have taken the NPO's side if they were going to win. They took GGA's side, the very alliance that had them crushed because "GOONS were more mean about it D:"

Though you're right about me not knowing of how the Balkan Entente works, so I suppose they could have entered on GOD's side as well.

Also, my implication was that VE was an alliance that will do anything to survive, which, as the correction shows, it does. Granted, that does not imply a causation, but there you have it. VE has done a variety of things to ensure its survival.

Gee, if only we were all as noble and would rather commit suicide than live the Law of NPO. Some of us like to think we're a bit more clever than that; self-preservation is a rather basic concept, even for the most mentally incompetent of our species. We learned our lesson the first time, how about you?

Yes, Ardus said that, although he knew how to spell "reek". Ardus did a splendid job of gathering positive PR for the Entente (opposing the NPO, I might add) and playing the whole "moralist" game much better than it seems to be played today. Then he became the biggest villain on green sphere when he took down Sponge. Go figure. But while I opposed that war, I recognize that it was necessary in order to launch an offensive on NPO. Dividing the OoO was a huge step in bringing down the big P. But at the time, I was just mad that we were treated like garbage. Sticks and stones, I guess. But what Ardus realized that you don't, is that sometimes you have to wait for a more opportune moment to avoid having all your plans ruined and your time wasted.

I knew I had it spelled wrong. >_>

I did learn a lesson when \m/ met the same fate as VE. That lesson was to keep fighting. Only a coward routs as easily, as both \m/ and VE did. I never bent to the will of my enemies, and I'm better for it. At the very least I can say clearly, that I never once conceded to my enemies to survive, and that is something VE cannot say.

My point was that he was an obvious hypocrite, as you quite clearly pointed out, admitting that all he did was bid his time using a paradigm of "morality" to further his goals. (Remind you of a certain thread in the IC forums?) The difference was that he wasn't actually fighting. Go figure.

Necessary, maybe. Beneficial, yeah mostly.

An another note, the jockeying for "credit" for the war in this thread while quite amusing is also vaguely disgusting.

If anything actually deserves credit, may I suggest luck?

Luck is probably my biggest factor too. I mean, Moo's internet sucking and them declaring war during the talks I would bet convinced quite a few that the NPO was getting too arrogant.

I'm actually surprised at the poll numbers, but it's a happy surprise. I never expected anybody to give us credit except for ourselves and die-hard fans.

Yes you sought to self-preserve while others sought to fight. When I look back at what happened I will see the true people who toppled the NPO such as Aros and not the pathetic jokes who changed their stars at the last such as yourself.

People like Aros helped to bring change to CN, you only decided to oppose it for so long then help it along at the last minute.

Aw you mean that?

EDIT: Added the link to clarify.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Earogema