Because everyone else is doing it.

[Doitzel]

but it was already there and with or without Vox

Yeah, it was there. The problem is everyone was afraid to say or do anything for fear of getting rolled that could sway those that were on the fence. So while people felt something needed to be done, nobody wanted to make the sacrifices to get it done. We eroded their public image and political power more quickly and effectively than any bunch of cowering backroom leaders trying to coalesce could have.

The most important word in your post was 'was'. He didn't stop being emporer because he was great at it. And posting a lot is not really a measure of political success is it?

It worked for Philosopher.

Doitzel, you and I both know that you're asking for a miracle on this one.

BELIEVE

[Khalai Protoss]

The most important word in your post was 'was'. He didn't stop being emporer because he was great at it. And posting a lot is not really a measure of political success is it?

No it's not, but their posts were quality and actually had meaning as opposed to the mindless hailing and congrats. They obviously succeeded politically, I mean their NS soared to a million in a matter of days. Not only that, but they totally grilled their opponents on the OWF, and thus made a name for themselves. Politics is about making a name for yourself and being popular, and the fact that they reached such high NS in such a short time span is a testament to that.

[Starfox101]

I don't understand this "NPO and friends would have fallen without Vox because Karma was there already". Really? Karma was where? Hiding in backrooms, allying Pacifica to stay alive, expelling members for speaking out, and licking their wounds from their latest beatdown?

[The AUT]

Yeah, it was there. The problem is everyone was afraid to say or do anything for fear of getting rolled that could sway those that were on the fence. So while people felt something needed to be done, nobody wanted to make the sacrifices to get it done. We eroded their public image and political power more quickly and effectively than any bunch of cowering backroom leaders trying to coalesce could have.

Well see Doitz, that's the problem. A person like Penkala would argue that these alliances needed to be kissing the derriere of Pacifica and co. to stay alive and then strike when it's timely and convenient to do so. Not so much a matter of principle for them, rather the fact of getting in a position to actually be able to usurp the NPO.

A person such as myself, on the other hand, will argue that Pacifica and co. actions should have never been concerned and that those said alliances that changed their stars at the last should have stood against them far sooner, then, let's say, 2 years?

[Dochartaigh]

Yeah, it was there. The problem is everyone was afraid to say or do anything for fear of getting rolled that could sway those that were on the fence. So while people felt something needed to be done, nobody wanted to make the sacrifices to get it done. We eroded their public image and political power more quickly and effectively than any bunch of cowering backroom leaders trying to coalesce could have.

i actually did account for the fact that Vox quickened the pace some. i would say that ya'll eroded their public image to alliances already prone to dislike NPO/Q/Heg, but their political power could only be eroded by their allies and those pesky cowering backroom leaders....

@Starfox- yes, and not much changed really with Vox around other than some people began to voice their opinions more than before. the same alliances that was publicly known to dislike NPO/Heg (such as those in CnG) continued to do what they did regardless of NPO/Heg and Vox, those that were publicly known to like NPO/Heg continued to do whta they did regardless of Vox. Karma was outside of anything Vox was doing and sooner or later would have happened regardless of if Vox existed or not.

Now because Vox did exist, it happened much quicker but at the same time, had it not been for OV/NPO incident, it may have started much later than it did. thus, Karma has nothing to do with Vox and to attempt to claim such is nonsense.

also, i was quite outspoken against actions taken by NPO and friends. such as the TPF/NoV war. i spoke out publicly against that (so much so i got a medal from FCO i believe.. i am sad i lost it) regardless of the fact that Polaris was allied to TPF and had given a public announcement of support. I spoke out against Pacifica during the Ivan/Moo incident as well as before the outbreak of SPW. to my knowledge i was never threatened with expulsion and if so, then Polaris stood up for me.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Dochartaigh

[Starcraftmazter]

It provided humour during some of the most bleak times in CN. But I don't think it contributed much to the downfall of Q. I think Q contributed most to the downfall of Q.

[Reptyler]

I was never a fan of Vox, I always thought they were pretty unnecessary. In hindsight, they served a purpose, I suppose, but I am still a firm believer that we did not need them to bring down the hegemony. They were not necessary in any way, shape, or form, and I disliked them much the way you might dislike your college roommate's girlfriend who always seemed to be completely trashed on boxed wine and was infamous for her attempts to sing at the top of her lungs and then giggle drunkenly about it for hours on end.

[Owned-You]

Vox was entertaining and helped to water the seeds of dissent against Pacifica, they did not plant them. Only nurtured them into full bloom, ultimately cullminating into the Karma coalition. That being said, they are not what is needed to bring life back to CN; cunning, ambitious, & daring leaders need to arise in positins of importance in major alliances to replace the cautious leaders currently sitting in a position of safety rather than capitalizing on this current power void. I suppose only a tiny minority operate with this mindset; tis' a shame.

[Mathias]

Yes. Vox's PR war is what caused the shift that allowed Karma to happen (well, to end in an NPO defeat).

[Starfox101]

I think it's quite humerous that Vox's biggest critics are all Karma folk. NPO has acknowledged our effect, with even the likes of Branimir on our side. We applauded your actions and have never tried to take your glory. Why do you seek to belittle our achievements?

You all were cowering and hiding from Pacifica while we fought, for months. A little respect would be nice.

Quit acting like elitists when you all held treaties with Pacifica until it was safe, yet act like you were fighting them before we were.

[Nintenderek]

I was never a fan of Vox, I always thought they were pretty unnecessary. In hindsight, they served a purpose, I suppose, but I am still a firm believer that we did not need them to bring down the hegemony. They were not necessary in any way, shape, or form

It's good to know that the Viridian Entente spent 8 months fighting NPO an allies, sometimes with out hope of it ever coming to an end. It's good to know the Karma nations fought from ZI with only their weapon being their mind and beliefs. I mean, it's not like you guys were treatied to the hegemony in any way, at any time in the past.

[Earogema]

It's good to know that the Viridian Entente spent 8 months fighting NPO an allies, sometimes with out hope of it ever coming to an end. It's good to know the Karma nations fought from ZI with only their weapon being their mind and beliefs. I mean, it's not like you guys were treatied to the hegemony in any way, at any time in the past.

It was August to May, so actually, 10 months.

[Dochartaigh]

I think it's quite humerous that Vox's biggest critics are all Karma folk. NPO has acknowledged our effect, with even the likes of Branimir on our side. We applauded your actions and have never tried to take your glory. Why do you seek to belittle our achievements?

You all were cowering and hiding from Pacifica while we fought, for months. A little respect would be nice.

Quit acting like elitists when you all held treaties with Pacifica until it was safe, yet act like you were fighting them before we were.

No one is taking that away from ya'll. Ya'll had some effect on Karma just not as much as ya'll think. the fact is, NPO and co were brought down in the Karma war by those cowardly backroom dealing folks as Doitzel called them. Ya'll helped fan the flames and helped smash through NPO's persona on the OWF. i give ya'll much props for fighting for 10 months by ya'lls selves, but had we all done the same, NPO would be at the peak of their glory now and you damn well know that.

so to all us who cowered and hid until a coalition strong enough to finally break NPO's sway over CN was built, well i guess we should have just fought like Vox did from the beginning and never even attempted to build a coalition capable of finally tearing NPO out of power.....

as for fighting them before ya'll, i was in Polaris during the SPW (WotC for others) so, yes, i fought Q before Vox did.

[Earogema]

No one is taking that away from ya'll. Ya'll had some effect on Karma just not as much as ya'll think. the fact is, NPO and co were brought down in the Karma war by those cowardly backroom dealing folks as Doitzel called them. Ya'll helped fan the flames and helped smash through NPO's persona on the OWF. i give ya'll much props for fighting for 10 months by ya'lls selves, but had we all done the same, NPO would be at the peak of their glory now and you damn well know that.

so to all us who cowered and hid until a coalition strong enough to finally break NPO's sway over CN was built, well i guess we should have just fought like Vox did from the beginning and never even attempted to build a coalition capable of finally tearing NPO out of power.....

as for fighting them before ya'll, i was in Polaris during the SPW (WotC for others) so, yes, i fought Q before Vox did.

Actually, Vox was formed when Hyperion was attacked, before Polar came into the war iirc.

EDIT : Shorty after Hyperion was attacked I mean. We had to wait a couple of days for Brookbank to reroll before our formal announcement.

EDIT2: Just checked. Polar came in 1 day before our announcement, but all of us that had nations were already fighting. It's just splitting hairs though.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Earogema

[Dochartaigh]

Actually, Vox was formed when Hyperion was attacked, before Polar came into the war iirc.

EDIT : Shorty after Hyperion was attacked I mean. We had to wait a couple of days for Brookbank to reroll before our formal announcement.

EDIT2: Just checked. Polar came in 1 day before our announcement, but all of us that had nations were already fighting. It's just splitting hairs though.

ahhh... you are correct. so i fought Q around the time you did. just not for as long. for some reason, i keep forgetting that the SPW was around August. i think i keep getting it mixed up with the GPW which was started in July i believe. then again, i am not good on dates it seems....

[Nintenderek]

It was August to May, so actually, 10 months.

That just furthers my point. You lose track with all that fighting

No one is taking that away from ya'll. Ya'll had some effect on Karma just not as much as ya'll think. the fact is, NPO and co were brought down in the Karma war by those cowardly backroom dealing folks as Doitzel called them. Ya'll helped fan the flames and helped smash through NPO's persona on the OWF. i give ya'll much props for fighting for 10 months by ya'lls selves, but had we all done the same, NPO would be at the peak of their glory now and you damn well know that.

so to all us who cowered and hid until a coalition strong enough to finally break NPO's sway over CN was built, well i guess we should have just fought like Vox did from the beginning and never even attempted to build a coalition capable of finally tearing NPO out of power.....

as for fighting them before ya'll, i was in Polaris during the SPW (WotC for others) so, yes, i fought Q before Vox did.

And nobody is trying to take all the credit on the Vox end. We couldn't have done it with out Karma, however Karma couldn't have done it with out us. Meanwhile, we've got several former Karma nations in here trying to say other wise and those were the people Starfox was calling out.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Nintenderek

[Dochartaigh]

That just furthers my point. You lose track with all that fighting

And nobody is trying to take all the credit on the Vox end. We couldn't have done it with out Karma, however Karma couldn't have done it with out us. Meanwhile, we've got several former Karma nations in here trying to say other wise and those were the people Starfox was calling out.

I think what many are saying is that Karma would have happened regardless of Vox. Vox is claiming that they inspired some alliances on the fence but those alliances i doubt would have gone it alone as Vox did. thus, while the inspiration was there, if not for Karma already forming those alliances would have continued on as before Vox existed.

Vox did well in winning the OWF back, which allowed for much freer discourse not only on the OWF but in those backrooms where Karma was forming i suspect. In that Karma is indebted to Vox as it helped quicken the pace with which Karma came about.

I think the issue is that many felt Vox effected different things in different ways.

[Caesar833]

I think what many are saying is that Karma would have happened regardless of Vox. Vox is claiming that they inspired some alliances on the fence but those alliances i doubt would have gone it alone as Vox did. thus, while the inspiration was there, if not for Karma already forming those alliances would have continued on as before Vox existed.

Vox did well in winning the OWF back, which allowed for much freer discourse not only on the OWF but in those backrooms where Karma was forming i suspect. In that Karma is indebted to Vox as it helped quicken the pace with which Karma came about.

I think the issue is that many felt Vox effected different things in different ways.

But even if they feel that Vox did different things, you cant argue that they were not necessary.

[Daikos]

ITT: Ex Vox members try to relive past glories and shout down anyone who doesn't worship them.

[Doitzel]

It provided humour during some of the most bleak times in CN. But I don't think it contributed much to the downfall of Q. I think Q contributed most to the downfall of Q.

Sic semper tyrannis.

the fact is, NPO and co were brought down in the Karma war by those cowardly backroom dealing folks as Doitzel called them.

No, the fact is that it was a multitude of factors and individual that contributed to their undoing; as much as ChairmanHal would like us to believe there was a "master plan" at play I think the beginnings of Karma prove quite the opposite. People were afraid to talk to one another about this issue and that until we spilled it all out into the public eye, over and over, and made it the cool thing to do. The sacrifices of alliances like GATO and FAN cannot be understated. NPO lacked the talent to plug the holes in the dam or the foresight to keep under their influence the key swing alliances.

We all did what we had to do, but essentially asserting SF was behind the scenes carefully knocking down all the right dominoes undetected is rather insane.

[James I]

Please better name your topics. I keep stumbling in here having forgotten what it was.

[Skippy]

It did, yes, but now it needs something different.

^^ Exactly

Vox wouldn't have anything to do nowdays, perhaps show us what (if anything) is being planned in Pacifica other than that there's not much else that they would be able to do. They did their job, and did it well.

We need a little something to spice up the game. Throw the sanctioned alliances off their guard. Doing slightly what Vox did, but for a different cause. Problem being everyone is trying not to be seen as the bad guy (except Athens, but they hate everyone )

^^ hopefully this made sense

[ChairmanHal]

No, the fact is that it was a multitude of factors and individual that contributed to their undoing; as much as ChairmanHal would like us to believe there was a "master plan" at play I think the beginnings of Karma prove quite the opposite. People were afraid to talk to one another about this issue and that until we spilled it all out into the public eye, over and over, and made it the cool thing to do. The sacrifices of alliances like GATO and FAN cannot be understated. NPO lacked the talent to plug the holes in the dam or the foresight to keep under their influence the key swing alliances.

We all did what we had to do, but essentially asserting SF was behind the scenes carefully knocking down all the right dominoes undetected is rather insane.

Your words are arrogance laced with a mixture of ignorance and a bit of truth. Since you have everything absolutely figured out in your mind, including the stuff that you absolutely had no involvement in or knowledge of, pointing out where you get it right and where you get it wrong would be an exercise in futility, Cliff Sheldon Doitzel.

Suffice to say if I had my way at one point in 2008, Vox would have been wiped from the game. Vox was laughed at behind closed doors by those that ultimately won the Karma War. Did Vox ultimately serve any purpose? At best you can argue that showed that the bear could be poked with a stick. Those that had infrastructure (something to lose) to actually put on the line against NPO and the last of its allies, saw in Vox a group of people who could afford to act out because they had nothing left to lose...and for most, that is all they thought of Vox.

Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the fandango?

In the past I've been gracious in my appraisal of Vox and what it meant to the run up to the Karma War. As to the question at hand, "do you think that cybernations needed (emphasis mine) Vox Populi?" the answer would be a resounding "no".

[King Srqt]

Your words are arrogance laced with a mixture of ignorance and a bit of truth. Since you have everything absolutely figured out in your mind, including the stuff that you absolutely had no involvement in or knowledge of, pointing out where you get it right and where you get it wrong would be an exercise in futility, Cliff Sheldon Doitzel.

Suffice to say if I had my way at one point in 2008, Vox would have been wiped from the game. Vox was laughed at behind closed doors by those that ultimately won the Karma War. Did Vox ultimately serve any purpose? At best you can argue that showed that the bear could be poked with a stick. Those that had infrastructure (something to lose) to actually put on the line against NPO and the last of its allies, saw in Vox a group of people who could afford to act out because they had nothing left to lose...and for most, that is all they thought of Vox.

Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the fandango?

In the past I've been gracious in my appraisal of Vox and what it meant to the run up to the Karma War. As to the question at hand, "do you think that cybernations needed (emphasis mine) Vox Populi?" the answer would be a resounding "no".

There is nothing you know about the leading up to the Karma war that Doitzel doesn't. Your arrogance here surprises me Hal. Some of the very people you cite as laughing at Vox behind closed doors were also feeding Vox the information they needed to fuel a propaganda machine that was highly effective and one that I still believe heavily influenced the Karma war and may very well have been a difference maker in the outcome.

Vox acted when everyone else talked and I am not sure that many of the Karma alliances that were needed to win would have acted if it weren't for Vox destroying the image of Q.

[Merrie Melodies]

Vox showed the world you could indeed "Do something about it" with out having military might.

@ChairmanHal, funny you of all people talking about getting laughed at in back rooms.