What the Vox Movement Represented [Note: Now IC]

[TehChron]

You'd think that you would at least be able to respect him for being smart enough to not start any fights he's well enough aware he can't win just yet.

[Valerius]

Who is we? If you're referring to your tiny alliance, then are you really challenging me? How about this, I gather some friends and we fight your entire alliance. It'll be a tough task for sure for us.

I think you thought this rant was aimed at you. I don't even know who you are, or care about your alliance.

Any idea what you just sounded like?

[Francesca]

To Starfox:

To be quite honest, I'm sick of all the lies, the propaganda and the filth that infests these forums. I'm tired of being spoon-fed revisionism. I wasn't around in Great War One. I can't clarify who won. I can't discuss the League or the Unjust War, because what I've learned is second-hand. But I was a member of Vox Populi and I know what it was like back then. This sort of revisionism is unbearable and that is because it is simply false. I believed in the Voxian cause, heart and soul, and so did most of the ordinary Vox membership. Do you want me to name names? Hegemon Rob. Heike Lunta. Korng. Kent. I debated with Kent via PM for several weeks before I joined Vox. What attracted me was his passion, his genuine dedication to the creation of a better world. There's something beautiful about a person like that, and it's people like him who make me proud to have called myself a Voxian. Today, I honour him.

I'll admit I never really liked you. You were so cold, so focused, so bitter. I knew you didn't really believe in ethics. There were others I had my doubts about too. Electron Sponge was awesome, but I doubted he opposed Pacifica because it was ethical to do so. But I don't believe you or any other individual speaks for the entire of Vox Populi. Each of us spoke for him or herself. After all, we were the Voice of the People.

Who's the traitor to Vox, Starfox? The woman who joins the NPO with an honest heart, or the man who lies to his alliance for close to nine months?

Toodles everyone. This is my last post on these forums.

(Oh, and this was written at about 3.04 am in the morning. It's probably pretty awful.)

Edited November 29, 2009 by Francesca

[Starfox101]

Maybe your morals were a load of Crap Starfox, but that doesn't mean everyone's were.

Simply put, there are no morals in Cybernations. One may be just in the eyes of a person and may be evil in the eyes of another. It is all perspective. What would you do had STA raided a 40 man AA?

Some of us were in Vox for different reasons than others. We were all in it for revenge to some extent, I know I certainly was. But characterizing the entire movement as being devoid of moral resistance is a gross generalization when that was what formed much of the reason why I and several other Vox members continued fighting.

As I remember it, every single time I attempted to maintain our moral superiority I was blocked by you, culminating in my resignation after certain members decided to go off calling someone a pedophile. One such event that comes to mind was Kristin Marie, and your opposition to my motion for her expulsion after the extremely distasteful things she said.

That is true Moridin, but you have to understand, I saw use in her and I was going to use it. She was a well known player, and what she said was OOC, thus I would not hold it against her in our IC alliance. I realize my stances will often push people away, but I wanted to win so badly. I blocked numerous attempts at expulsions, because we simply couldn't afford to go around kicking everyone out who called someone a name.

Just because Vox was the loudest voice at the time, didn't mean it was the only one or the first to claim moral superiority. I dislike that people are claiming that Vox is and was the moral high ground. Vox used morality when convinient, and it worked. There was plenty of things that went on that disgusted some founding members enough to leave Vox itself, if not the cause. I'm assuming that it's the same way in every alliance that used the moral high ground to sway other people to their side of an argument, and its driving the game further into the ground.

Yes, numerous Vox founders resigned and it was generally my fault each time because I refused to allow anyone to take action. I apologize for pushing you guys away, but I simply didn't think it was right to purge our membership simply to maintain a moral high ground, when we already had it secured regardless.

Nice propaganda piece. I love how you take fault in creating the great moralist evil that plagues CN, as a means of attacking it which serves your cause now.

Sadly your wrong. It was moralism that almost brought war a few months ago when Grub decided to stand by his morals and risk it big time by threatening to go to war with Athens over them. Moralism could have brought about a big war, but it was not moralism but realpolitik played by some alliances including Athens that averted war. Funny how moralism became the bad guy there. The only thing moralism stopped was some tech raid on a 40 man alliance that supposidly would have simply been solved if they asked for peace individually anyways.

So no, moralism creates conflict, as it often conflicts with those acting against the morals people feel passionate in backing up. Moralism along with powerplayers (which sometimes use morals to back their plays) are the two greatest conflict driving forces we have in this game. The powerplayers have taken the game since GWII, moralism was dangerous to have, and simply whispered about in back rooms, now it can be out in the open is the only thing that has changed. Ronin, OG attacked Int. in GWIII for the great evil it was. LUE stood by their morals and ignited GWII. ES stroked the fires agains the UJP over issues of morals. Morals, the use off, or peoples belief in, has played a major part in every war.

As for Vox being our moralist fighters, seriously? Gremlins were standard barers of moralism long before Vox preached it. And they weren't using fo moralism to achieve an agenda, they did it because of their view of right and wrong. But since it served Vox's purpose, and that of those fighting the NPO then, they all cheered it on. Now though, because they want to push their own agenda and find the moralism of the Gremlins troublesome the cries of "get of your high horse" can be heard loud and clear from those same individuals.

But I understand what your trying to do and I support it. You want more people to stand by your side, so that you have enough people so that next time a situation like what happened with Athens comes along that alliance will not back down because they will have enough allies (or believe they do) to win against those standing against them over issues of morals. And since I'm all for a war, I will support your cause.

Morals are bad! The right to attack, and destroy whoever we want without rhyme or reason other then greed and the right that comes with our might is good!

Hmmm, nah, I think I'm better suited on a high horse.

I have no political agenda here, Khyber. The days of myself doing that are long gone, I have given up any propaganda war and likely lost a lot of credibility with more than a few people here.

Also, Gramlins were not the first moralist alliance, and certainly not the key one. If the world had waited on them for action, I'd still be in PZI and NPO would have 30 million NS.

Any idea what you just sounded like?

Enlighten me.

To Starfox:

To be quite honest, I'm sick of all the lies, the propaganda and the filth that infests these forums. I'm tired of being spoon-fed revisionism. I wasn't around in Great War One. I can't clarify who won. I can't discuss the League or the Unjust War, because what I've learned is second-hand. But I was a member of Vox Populi and I know what it was like back then. This sort of revisionism is unbearable and that is because it is simply false. I believed in the Voxian cause, heart and soul, and so did most of the ordinary Vox membership. Do you want me to name names? Hegemon Rob. Heike Lunta. Korng. Kent. I debated with Kent via PM for several weeks before I joined Vox. What attracted me was his passion, his genuine dedication to the creation of a better world. There's something beautiful about a person like that, and it's people like him who make me proud to have called myself a Voxian. Today, I honour him.

I'll admit I never really liked you. You were so cold, so focused, so bitter. I knew you didn't really believe in ethics. There were others I had my doubts about too. Electron Sponge was awesome, but I doubted he opposed Pacifica because it was ethical to do so. But I don't believe you or any other individual speaks for the entire of Vox Populi. Each of us spoke for him or herself. After all, we were the Voice of the People.

Who's the traitor to Vox, Starfox? The woman who joins the NPO with an honest heart, or the man who lies to his alliance for close to nine months?

Toodles everyone. This is my last post on these forums.

(Oh, and this was written at about 3.04 am in the morning. It's probably pretty awful.)

I recruited half of those names you just threw at me. You claim I was bitter, cold, and focused, how exactly was that a bad thing? I was one of the most dedicated players to the cause.

I never lied to Vox. I openly spoke my views, and openly displayed them. Just ask Moridin if I ever pretended to be a morally righteous player. I was all about victory, to help myself and my friends out of the abyss we had fallen into. I was not wrong.

Again I say, there was no moral cause. The NPO were viewed as saviors to alliances like Valhalla, GGA, and such. Afterall they had saved them from being rolled in the past. They were also viewed highly by red team nations they protected. To others, they were unjust tyrants enforcing their will on the weak. We were the weak, and the beaten. In our perspective, they were evil, but that was not universally so. Our cause was to help ourselves, our side, and at a time, it appeared to be for the better of the world, though I see that last one has not come true, as neomoralism plagues the landscape of the world.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Starfox101

[Kiss Goodbye]

The former half of Starfox's opening post reads as a very well-thought out self-expose.

The second half reads as "Oh crap someone else is doing the same thing to others as I did to NPO!"

This thread isn't going to change that fact. Everyone has haters.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Kiss Goodbye

[Delta1212]

A sense of moral superiority is the single most useful quality an underdog can have and the single most destructive in the guy holding the gun.

[New Frontier]

I, for one, appreciate Starfox speaking up to represent the several hundred Voxians. There is no way we could have spoken for ourselves about why we joined Vox Populi.

Well done, Starfox. You hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what Vox Populi was about for everyone.

[Vilien]

Hey Villien, why don't you attack Starfox for being immoral scum?

The only problem I have with this post is the number of L's you used to spell my name.

[Joe Kremlin]

Just because your group framed it as a fight over morals when you had a different motive in reality doesn't mean everyone else who fought did it for vengeance or whatever. Just sayin'.

[OberstKrieger]

I, for one, appreciate Starfox speaking up to represent the several hundred Voxians. There is no way we could have spoken for ourselves about why we joined Vox Populi.

Well done, Starfox. You hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what Vox Populi was about for everyone.

Well of course, because he founded it, he must know the motives driving every single member of Vox Populi who joined.

And to those talking about Starfox losing control, Vox Populi accomplished precisely what Starfox desired, to remove the New Pacific Order from power. Just because his motives were spite and vengeance does not mean that people joining for moral reasons changed its direction.

[Hydro]

And to those talking about Starfox losing control, Vox Populi accomplished precisely what Starfox desired, to remove the New Pacific Order from power. Just because his motives were spite and vengeance does not mean that people joining for moral reasons changed its direction.

Give me a break. Vox did not remove NPO from power and the idea that it did is utterly absurd. That was a mixture of Karma's doing and Pacifica's own laxity. Why don't you go peddle your revionism somewhere else?

[Chunky Monkey]

Honestly, I think very few of us in Vox thought we were fighting for morals. Personally I joined Vox because I was becoming bored with sitting at ZI doing nothing, and Vox was the only place to go where I thought we actually had a good chance at changing that, at saving ourselves from being perpetually stomped at the feet of the "great" and "honorable" Pacifica. I serverd two+ terms as a Vox senator, and I never once lied about why I was fighting. I fought for our freedom, as a collective. The membership of Vox was pretty much two types of people, people who were PZI'd, and people who sympathized with us for being PZI'd. The first group were the original 11 (mostly), plus those of us who ran for and served in the senate. The other group were mostly spies, although some of them sacrificed thier nations to assist us. I guess what Im trying to get across is that Vox didnt fight for morality, Vox didnt fight to remove conflict, Vox fought to remove the hegemony that was stagnating at the top, Vox fought to free many of the free thinking minds that had been deemed "too dangerous to be members of the global community anymore".

Did we achieve our goals? Mmmmm, yes and no. Yes we killed the global hegemony, yes we freed ourselves from the prison we had been placed in to rot. On the other hand, no, we were unable to keep things from stagnating again. So in the end, yes we killed off the "great evil", but in reality, there was a greater evil all along, one that has been decried for a very long time, and one that no individual or even determined group can destroy, and that is the rediculous amount of useless and pointless treaties that clog world affairs.

edit: yes I came out of my hidey hole, I thought that was important to say. Ill be leaving now again.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Chunk Monkey

[Starfox101]

I, for one, appreciate Starfox speaking up to represent the several hundred Voxians. There is no way we could have spoken for ourselves about why we joined Vox Populi.

Well done, Starfox. You hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what Vox Populi was about for everyone.

Give me a break. You were a very inactive member of Vox, and left rather early on, then later railed agaunst us upon returning to the political scene. So, I think have a right to speak for the short term members who left once things looked very bleak for us.

Well of course, because he founded it, he must know the motives driving every single member of Vox Populi who joined.

And to those talking about Starfox losing control, Vox Populi accomplished precisely what Starfox desired, to remove the New Pacific Order from power. Just because his motives were spite and vengeance does not mean that people joining for moral reasons changed its direction.

I don't think anyone was saying I lost control. Only that I had too much control and blocked attempts others made at purging members and attempting to regain the moral high ground.

Also, on a side note, it's good to see all these Voxians coming out of our caves. This is about as close to a reunion as we'll get. Now where is Doitzel?

[TehChron]

Also, on a side note, it's good to see all these Voxians coming out of our caves. This is about as close to a reunion as we'll get. Now where is Doitzel?

Well, I would hope he has the good sense to avoid train wrecks.

[Starfox101]

Well, I would hope he has the good sense to avoid train wrecks.

Aw man the Darth Secretary really burned me with his clever abilities.

[Valerius]

Enlighten me.

I was going to be all smart and play that little game, but no, I'll tell you. You sounded just like the very people you fought against, and it disgusts me. Publicly airing this new attitude of yours not only spits in the face of every Voxian who did not share your selfish motivations, it also disgraces the nine months of work you yourself put in to the cause. You could have just joined the enemy and saved yourself the effort; I see now you would have fitted in perfectly.

Edited November 29, 2009 by President Kent

[Bob]

Starfox dislikes NPO.

This is news to me.

[cjav0]

<3 foxy

<3 bob

</3 IAA

[Homura]

I disagree with the assertion that the world has become increasingly moralistic. If you look at the recent Athens debacle and the responses it provoked, they were not at all a unified view. There were some that were opposed to tech raiding and always have been, some who just didn't like seeing an alliance get hit, some who disagreed with the departure from established precedent, and there were people like me who didn't give a damn about what happened to Knights of Ni! but just disliked how disingenuous the attackers were in downplaying what they were doing.

In fact, I take this as evidence that the Cyberverse has become increasingly multipolar in the absence of leadership. It is actually the case that the number of wars has declined, and perhaps that is because there is currently no alliance that is able and willing to reshape the world, when in the past this had been the domain of the Orders. This isn't necessarily a failure of the Vox movement but rather it's logical conclusion. I do believe that there are alliances led by those who intend to fill that void, and eventually they will start wars to advance their position.

That being said, if you're disappointed with the status quo (only four months postbellum), perhaps the problem is that you're not doing enough to change it rather than a failure of the Vox movement. In fact, I'd say the Vox movement was brilliant in a way that only the Orders themselves have been able to match.

So, don't just stand there, do something! B)

[shahenshah]

Vox was more about vengeance, justice, and payback than any moral resistance to Pacifica and her ruling party.

I'll mostly agree with you there, but knew this already.

As for morals, IMO there should be a compass to guide what is right or wrong, but that compass is not standard for everyone nor I see why it should be. If it became standard, well then, we might all as well join GPA. Different standards of moralism infact lead to conflict, however what is difficult to distinguish in real time is whether moralism is being used as a tool or as a principle.

I'm, bit surprised people not giving enough credit to Vox, while majority hid behind Hegemony, used its influence to achieve own objectives and security for several months, joined in on the "crimes", took reps etc, then let Vox do the dirty work for them..Vox had atleast the balls to do something about it when no one else did

Edited November 30, 2009 by shahenshah

[Branimir]

Now it's my turn to ask if you are being sarcastic?

Hardly.

As others have already explained it, while those in the highest rank maybe now think how Vox was irrelevant for achieving their long term goals, Vox impact on the rank and file members was tremendous specially, their directing of public opinion was unparalleled and quite important.

It amuses me now to see some selective parts of the "karma" coalition downplaying role of Vox and NPO members giving credit where it is due.

Seems that opportunists that hanged onto the coattail of Pacifica for so long and then switched to ride on the earth quake Vox produced now want to make themselves look more grandiose.

Dunno who you think you are kidding,...

Anyway, the current state is a product of not one, but many things. All are basically correct. Yes, the web, this board being downplayed in favor of irc, high damages of war, strong political discipline in avoiding wars at almost all costs, avoiding drama at all costs, etc. But the planet made a evolution it did and whatyagonnado. We will see where it goes from here,...those who will stay of course.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Branimir

[HellAngel]

Also, Gramlins were not the first moralist alliance, and certainly not the key one. If the world had waited on them for action, I'd still be in PZI and NPO would have 30 million NS.

What Gremlins did in Karma war and the preceeding months had more relevance than anything Vox has ever done in their whole existance. You guys were considered a joke even in the governments of supposed supporters. All you did was sit grumpily in a corner and complain how evil everyone was. We were the first crack in Continuum. We voiced our support in favour of VE when they almost got rolled and finally fought IRONs upper tiers alongside RoK, Fark, MHA and FCC. Go pack your self crafted medals and go home.

[Rebel Virginia]

I was going to be all smart and play that little game, but no, I'll tell you. You sounded just like the very people you fought against, and it disgusts me. Publicly airing this new attitude of yours not only spits in the face of every Voxian who did not share your selfish motivations, it also disgraces the nine months of work you yourself put in to the cause. You could have just joined the enemy and saved yourself the effort; I see now you would have fitted in perfectly.

Why, because he's not a whiny moralist? That doesn't mean he's one of them now. Heck, I'd have continued to remain in the NPO and support them all they could had they known where to draw a line. An antagonistic factor makes things interesting, and is what I appreciated most about the NPO. Problem is they took it too far, and that's where the problem was. I can tell you that I certainly am not the the only one who thought that way.

[New Frontier]

Praise be to the Gramlins, saviours of the Cyberverse!

[Azaghul]

What Gremlins did in Karma war and the preceeding months had more relevance than anything Vox has ever done in their whole existance. You guys were considered a joke even in the governments of supposed supporters. All you did was sit grumpily in a corner and complain how evil everyone was. We were the first crack in Continuum. We voiced our support in favour of VE when they almost got rolled and finally fought IRONs upper tiers alongside RoK, Fark, MHA and FCC. Go pack your self crafted medals and go home.

Gremlins and Vox challenged Hegemony in different ways.

Vox certainly played a significant role in changing the tones of these forums: they made it mainstream to attack NPO. They created a sense of paranoia and mistrust within Q that helped to break it up. Gremlins certainly played a part in both of those, with several outspoken members and setting the precedent for leaving Q, but they did not wage any kind of sustained propaganda war like Vox did and Vox's spying did a lot to create the atmosphere that led to MHA/TOP/Sparta leaving Q.