What the Vox Movement Represented [Note: Now IC]

[Ogaden]

You are wrong, Azaghul, there are indeed things that people fight over.

- Revenge (whether for historical wrongs or something someone said on here)

- Bragging rights

- Safety from a real or imagined threat

- Tech / Land

- "The principle of the thing"

[The Eye]

The OP is clearly IC (heck, you even used OOC tags in it).

Sorry I didn't catch the thread earlier, some of the subplots are OOC. Please note the thread is moved to an IC area and adjust your posting appropriately.

[ChairmanHal]

Frostbite was not a part of Karma.

Nope in fact it was barely in on the fighting at all.

As for the OP, honestly I am amused by people who expected the world to be this highly competitive environment envisioned by so many before the war so soon after NPO was knocked down and Q dissolved. NPO drove so much of the action for so long, it may be well into next year before a world war breaks out again.

[Bob Janova]

Moralism is not 'crap', though it's an interesting admission that your morality was. I don't think that applies to all of Vox, I'm fairly sure some of them really believed in what you were doing.

The warless state of the world is more due to no one of the several (five by my count) distinct factions wanting to face the wrath of the other four by making the first move than any moralist lockdown. The moralists maybe have control of one of the five (Citadel); the other blocs make no move for political reasons (i.e. not being crushed under the MDP web) not moral ones.

Karma did fail in its objective, but not in the way you suggest; instead, the failure to untangle enough of the MDP web leaves us in the situation we are in today.

[Facade]

Good read. No wonder I love you Starfox.

[astronaut jones]

Frostbite was not a part of Karma.

Any alliance that needlessly took up arms against the side called the hegemony was a part of the karma movement. It still saddens me to think of all the lives that were lost, as many of them were needlessly thrown away due to everyone, yours included, being too stubborn and foolhardy to realize that peace was the one true way.

It is peace that will hopefully govern from here on out.

[TypoNinja]

Bobs nailed it, the crazy interconnections we have from the MDP web make it near impossible for a 'skirmish' to break out, almost any fight no matter how small it starts will grow to a world war once actual shooting starts.

The problem with that is that STARTING the actual shooting is suicidal unless you've secured a rock solid reason to decalre that no one will argue against and/or secured enough political support through back channels to know that even if the your CB ain't the greatest the web will still break your way.

The way the web works nominally favours the defender, There are more defensive treaties than aggressive ones, and most of the aggressive ones are largely optional as well, while most of the defensive treaties are mandatory. This limitation has historically been over come in the past by the forming of large coalitions that have enough weight of fire to stand up to the rest of the world on their own power without needing the web to break their way dating back to GW2 and the World Unity Treaty.

We currently have no major coalition to fill that role, and because of the recent fall of the previous one, there is a negative stigma on attempting to form another one to replace it at this time.

Instead we have a multitude of groups, who are inter connected through various treaties, This leaves the web in a position of any war starting producing a multitude of conflicting treaties, it is these potentially conflicting treaties that will stifle conflict in the near future. We wont see another conflict larger than an un connected micro getting rolled until either someone does something stupid and gives their enemies the ammo they need to produce a solid CB, or until we see a round of cancellation of treaties on the OWF.

[Jack Diorno]

I share your pain, and dislike how war has become the ultimate taboo Mr yiffy Fox, but morality in cybernations is humorous to me. Before the NoCB war, all I did was alliance hop through alliance after alliance, I talked to a lot of people and found that most people who weren't tied to continuum hated it because they could not pursue a war or do most things they wanted unless the continuum found it acceptable. I do not doubt that most people rallied behind the vox movement to eliminate that oppression and gain their own freedom to do what they wanted in the world, not what others would let them do.

The vox campaign that played on peoples sense of right and wrong, mostly focusing on NPO's curbstomps and harsh treatment of alliances they defeated, worked well only because the people of cybernations wanted more freedom, the ability to declare war on who they wanted, have fun how they wanted, and generally do their own thing instead of waiting for the continuum to do something.

Today we see morality being used as a tool of slowing down other peoples movements, to a level similar to where those outside of the continuum once stood, no action may be taken unless it is deemed appropriate by the moralist windbags. I do not know why the moralists decry anything that happens outside of their influence, maybe they feel a small sense of power for doing it, maybe they are as bored as the regular person, and instead of using their power to do something interesting, they find more fun in shouting down those who are doing something interesting.

Either way, the people of Cybernations are still bored and nothing has changed, there is slightly more scattered drama instead of all the drama being arranged around a central entity, but the world is basically the same. Sooner or later people will unite against the windbags and they will be silenced.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Jack Diorno

[Lonely]

I question Starfox's motives for this announcement and I wouldn't put it past him to lie or downplay the role of ethics in the Vox Populi movement. I feel he has betrayed his Vox brothers by making a statement like this when it is not truly representative of Vox as a whole.

I think that many in Vox geninely believed in ethics and that they were fighting for a better world. This is evidenced by people like MegaAros and Gatherum who did not have personal grievances with NPO leadership.

[Kim Jaym Il]

Frostbite was not a part of Karma.

It wasn't even signed until over a month after the war started.

[Hydro]

Vox was little more than a semi-organized group of disaffected outcasts who, with their unrelenting and often uninspired antics, came off as little more than a group of sad, unloved children pining for the attention of anyone bored enough to listen to them. Their impact on the Cyberverse was nothing short of trivial, and the incessant claims of ex-Voxians that they somehow paved the way for Pacifica's demise is without any real basis in fact.

[Branimir]

Vox was little more than a semi-organized group of disaffected outcasts who, with their unrelenting and often uninspired antics, came off as little more than a group of sad, unloved children pining for the attention of anyone bored enough to listen to them. Their impact on the Cyberverse was nothing short of trivial, and the incessant claims of ex-Voxians that they somehow paved the way for Pacifica's demise is without any real basis in fact.

You are being sarcastic, maybe? It can get lost over this medium,...

While of course, Vox didn't had ground troops to attack NPO and "hegemony" so some NPO's long term ex allies with some other alliances had to do it, Vox propaganda war was quite efficient in changing a lot around here and creating a strong and vibrant culture of hate for the NPO. Culture of hate which was cultivated to a extreme, strong victory for Vox there. As any thing, it had its positive and negative effects on many things, one can argue about it, as people are here.

The fact that Vox was started and was driven in its core by revenge on NPO was always quite clear. Just look at the ring leaders history, I mean, all quite clear. Dunno why some are trying to deny that, the war is over, you won. Congrats, you can stop with the charade now although funny it is.

[Prime minister Johns]

Any alliance that needlessly took up arms against the side called the hegemony was a part of the karma movement. It still saddens me to think of all the lives that were lost, as many of them were needlessly thrown away due to everyone, yours included, being too stubborn and foolhardy to realize that peace was the one true way.

It is peace that will hopefully govern from here on out.

A noble sentiment, but sadly not everyone in karma had the same goal in mind. There were some who wanted the NPO out of the way for less honorable reasons.

Karma's big failing was that it started a job that it could not possibly finish since it lacked the unity required to establish a just new order to replace the old.

There was no vision for the future or actual goal other than to topple the tyrant.

But this is only one step in a revolution, after the resistance of and eventual overthrow of a regime comes the next step, social reform, once the revolutionaries are in power they have a free hand to reshape society into a new and better form.

[hawk11]

Ignoring the five pages of you sorry lot posting gibberish no doubt, I enjoyed this read. It puts out straight from the horse's mouth what Vox was, and for that I can honestly say I respect the Vox movement even more for sticking with their guns. Their main objective was to kill us. Their tactics consisted of painting us as evil to get you people to band against us. It worked too well, and now it has created a lasting effect on politics because you lot believe there's actual good and evil here.

These days one cannot sneeze without its morality being questioned. I'd rather have Vox back, at least I knew what they considered right and wrong.

[steodonn]

A noble sentiment, but sadly not everyone in karma had the same goal in mind. There were some who wanted the NPO out of the way for less honorable reasons.

Karma's big failing was that it started a job that it could not possibly finish since it lacked the unity required to establish a just new order to replace the old.

There was no vision for the future or actual goal other than to topple the tyrant.

But this is only one step in a revolution, after the resistance of and eventual overthrow of a regime comes the next step, social reform, once the revolutionaries are in power they have a free hand to reshape society into a new and better form.

There was never a plan to put in force a New World Order or anything like that. Ywes the goal was to topple NPO and I still think Cn is better form that

The job that was started was finished. The NPO is no longer the sole superpower

[KingEd]

Hey, this game is what you make out of it.

Those in power will not change their ways unless they get popular support.

For the time being, this environment is not ready for agressive wars. And that has multiple reasons, of which I think the treaty web also should be taken into account.

Indeed, the treaty web, the infamous treaty web that has prevented many wars from happening; regardless of whether the CB was good or not. Finally we all know that when people want WAR, no legit CB is needed. Just turn something into something else and there you go. I'm sure many alliances have stored CB's for when the time is right

[Trout]

Ah, I remember when people use to say that if NPO and friends were to go down, there was gonna be !@#$ load of wars... Haha

[Stonewall Jaxon]

Starfox, did I ever tell you I love you?

[Heft]

If people would stop displacing blame for their own inaction and lack of proper ambition we'd all be much better off. Skirmishes are perfectly possible and have already been occurring. There is no justification for fearing war or military conflict other than a simple lack of fortitude.

The only obstacle to action is a failure to try.

[ChairmanHal]

You are being sarcastic, maybe? It can get lost over this medium,...

While of course, Vox didn't had ground troops to attack NPO and "hegemony" so some NPO's long term ex allies with some other alliances had to do it, Vox propaganda war was quite efficient in changing a lot around here and creating a strong and vibrant culture of hate for the NPO. Culture of hate which was cultivated to a extreme, strong victory for Vox there. As any thing, it had its positive and negative effects on many things, one can argue about it, as people are here.

The fact that Vox was started and was driven in its core by revenge on NPO was always quite clear. Just look at the ring leaders history, I mean, all quite clear. Dunno why some are trying to deny that, the war is over, you won. Congrats, you can stop with the charade now although funny it is.

With all due respect...

Vox was, in its earliest stages during the War of the Coalition, at best an annoyance to those of us looking ahead at the post-BLEU world and what may merge in terms of new challenges. Ragnarok's experience was typical. We lost several nations to Vox during the war and had those nations deserted while we were distracted they would have been aggressively pursued and ZIed. At it was, other alliances took care of that for us for the most part.

After the war, Vox plotted against Rok, conspired with our enemies, attempted to recruit our members, and in general made a minor annoyance of themselves. If Rok moved forward in plotting against NPO by year's end, it wasn't because of Vox, it was in spite of Vox.

Eventually Rok accepted Vox for what it was, something that was a useful tool. A surrogate propagandist that allowed Rok and its allies to carry on with its plotting and conspiring quietly in the IRC backrooms. Indeed, while NPO was distracted by Vox spies, Vox "news" alerts, and the feeling it was being slowly gnawed to death by hamsters, the wolves gathered. Not even NPO's closest allies could make NPO listen to the signs of the gathering pack.

No, in the past I've said that Vox was a nice sidebar when it came to GW VI. The flashing buttons on the nice suit. Others would argue that their role was indispensable to the run up to the war. Perhaps they do deserve a bit more credit. In the final analysis however, it was NPO that caused the NPO to be in the position that it is now.

[Branimir]

With all due respect, saying that Vox role was trivial at best around here, is a incredible downplaying of their role. That is to what I responded.

Now, you point out nicely, opportunist did recognize usefulness of Vox for their long term goal, but those opportunists would still be back in the dark rooms having collective circle jerks if not for the upheaval Vox movement created in galvanizing the masses and creating a vibrant culture of hate.

[Starfox101]

I question Starfox's motives for this announcement and I wouldn't put it past him to lie or downplay the role of ethics in the Vox Populi movement. I feel he has betrayed his Vox brothers by making a statement like this when it is not truly representative of Vox as a whole.

I think that many in Vox geninely believed in ethics and that they were fighting for a better world. This is evidenced by people like MegaAros and Gatherum who did not have personal grievances with NPO leadership.

Are you Gatherum re-rolled? Gatherum was not a founder of Vox Populi. I won't deny he was a good member, however, I would say 98% of Vox were haters and the others just liked our "last stand of the revolutionaries" and decided to join in.

There is no way we could have fought so vehemently if at the core it wasn't all based on hate. Hate is the strongest emotion in the world.

With all due respect, saying that Vox role was trivial at best around here, is a incredible downplaying of their role. That is to what I responded.

Now, you point out nicely, opportunist did recognize usefulness of Vox for their long term goal, but those opportunists would still be back in the dark rooms having collective circle jerks if not for the upheaval Vox movement created in galvanizing the masses and creating a vibrant culture of hate.

Haha, that is so true.

[Prime minister Johns]

There was never a plan to put in force a New World Order or anything like that. Ywes the goal was to topple NPO and I still think Cn is better form that

The job that was started was finished. The NPO is no longer the sole superpower

I just don't know, Not much has changed for the better.

Large alliances still raid small alliances because they can.

Tech raids are still a major problem for independents and there is no real option to be both protected and independent.

There is no superpower, but there are plenty of alliances that want to be one so a huge conflict of great war scale at some point in the future is inevitable.

The world is now different but I would not say that it is better.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

Nope in fact it was barely in on the fighting at all.

As for the OP, honestly I am amused by people who expected the world to be this highly competitive environment envisioned by so many before the war so soon after NPO was knocked down and Q dissolved. NPO drove so much of the action for so long, it may be well into next year before a world war breaks out again.

Are you joking? The political situation is now far more competitive than it was before the K-War.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Arcturus Jefferson

[Sigrun Vapneir]

You are being sarcastic, maybe? It can get lost over this medium,...

While of course, Vox didn't had ground troops to attack NPO and "hegemony" so some NPO's long term ex allies with some other alliances had to do it, Vox propaganda war was quite efficient in changing a lot around here and creating a strong and vibrant culture of hate for the NPO.

Now it's my turn to ask if you are being sarcastic?

Vox was at best an entertaining distraction, nothing more. NPO, working closely with just a very few of your bestest friends, created the 'strong and vibrant culture of hatred for the NPO' you bemoan. The second Vox, and its success as an entertainment franchise, were late-term spin-offs of that hatred. You join the tin-foil-hat brigade while I wasnt looking?