Cody Seb Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 "And I quote-- The Phoenix Empire strongly condemns the threat of using Nuclear Weapons in a First Strike, while the Empire will remain neutral due to the nature of the war we will stand by our friends. Should a single Weapon of Mass Destruction be fired towards the HRE or a single 3rd party get involved in the war on German side we will interefere on behalf of the HRE. Be warned. They are clearly stating that if Deutschland receives aid that they will intervene. It is obviously and plainly stated, I need not put poisonous words in their mouths when they produce them themselves. Enough of your rhetoric, I think that the world is not taking to it as kindly as you predicted." -Reichsmarschall Wareheim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 "And I quote--They are clearly stating that if Deutschland receives aid that they will intervene. It is obviously and plainly stated, I need not put poisonous words in their mouths when they produce them themselves. Enough of your rhetoric, I think that the world is not taking to it as kindly as you predicted." -Reichsmarschall Wareheim "Joining the German side would be a declaration of war against the HRE, so I do not see how it breaks the boundaries of the MDP." -President Uberstein. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Seb Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 "Joining the German side would be a declaration of war against the HRE, so I do not see how it breaks the boundaries of the MDP." -President Uberstein. "Where does one draw the line between defense and aggression then? Say the Dutch send troops only onto German land and only in the defense of Deutschland, does that warrant the defense of the HRE? No. If the Dutch attacked HRE territory, that would warrant defense. Of course it is a declaration of war, but it is not an aggressive war, it is a defensive war against the HRE in support of their ally. The Phoenix Empire is completely baseless in their decree. By the logic you are advocating, all treaty partners of any kind of treaty would fight each other in war, whether the treaty entailed it or not. It is simply not so." -Reichsmarschall Wareheim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 "And I quote--They are clearly stating that if Deutschland receives aid that they will intervene. It is obviously and plainly stated, I need not put poisonous words in their mouths when they produce them themselves. Enough of your rhetoric, I think that the world is not taking to it as kindly as you predicted." -Reichsmarschall Wareheim Correct, we will engage everyone we are not at war with already. Seeing as the Netherlands are the only known partner this leaves no one left. People who join in without treaty(everyone else) will be considered cowardly wolves trying to secure the HRE for their own goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Seb Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) Correct, we will engage everyone we are not at war with already. Seeing as the Netherlands are the only known partner this leaves no one left. People who join in without treaty(everyone else) will be considered cowardly wolves trying to secure the HRE for their own goals. "Secure the HRE? Are you delusional? I've spoken of nothing but the defense of Germany, making sure to say only on German soil, and you talk as though a defensive effort attempting to kick the HRE out of another nation is 'securing' the HRE? Keep talking, you're making a case for us." -Reichsmarschall Wareheim EDIT-Grammar Edited November 23, 2009 by Cody Seb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 "Secure the HRE? Are you delusional? I've spoken of nothing but the defense of Germany, making sure to say only on German soil, and you talk as though a defensive effort attempting to kick the HRE out of another nation is 'securing' the HRE? Keep talking, you're making a case for us." -Reichsmarschall WareheimEDIT-Grammar If you want to see what we consider an activation try it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevz Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 If you want to see what we consider an activation try it out. "Arn't you an American nation shouldn't you be keeping out of European affairs?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Seb Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 If you want to see what we consider an activation try it out. "Don't make me laugh. If that's your rebuttal I think this debate is done with. All I see is South America flexing its muscles trying to show off for the big boys. Although, this outwardly and overtly hostile stance is nothing new from the Phoenix Empire. At any rate, you fail to address the point of my argument. Also, I figure the activation of the treaty means a declaration of war. That's what usually happens." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 "Arn't you an American nation shouldn't you be keeping out of European affairs?" Ever heard of a Mutual Defense and Optional Aggression Pact? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Seb Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 Ever heard of a Mutual Defense and Optional Aggression Pact? "Yes actually. So stop posturing it as defense, or at least tell that to your allies." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 "Yes actually. So stop posturing it as defense, or at least tell that to your allies." If you mean GIAS they are everything but our allies. If you want a response to your statement sure. To form an effective defense for Germany against the HRE you would need to spill Roman blood even when it is on German soil. The moment a single Roman dies it forms a declaration of war where we are obliged to assist to prevent even more blood. Soldiers are still citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevz Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 Ever heard of a Mutual Defense and Optional Aggression Pact? "Yes but considering you are one of those nations that supports Tahoe in keeping out foreign nations and their influence from America, at least I believe you are, then you should keep out of any non-american affairs yourself". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 "Yes but considering you are one of those nations that supports Tahoe in keeping out foreign nations and their influence from America, at least I believe you are, then you should keep out of any non-american affairs yourself". There is a difference between fighting in name of an ally and actually establishing a claim on another continent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevz Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 There is a difference between fighting in name of an ally and actually establishing a claim on another continent. "It was our belief that Tahoe and its supporters didn't want foreign nations influencing america and its nations. As we are confused could you tell us which one it is. Are you oppossed to just colonies or to full influence?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 "It was our belief that Tahoe and its supporters didn't want foreign nations influencing america and its nations. As we are confused could you tell us which one it is. Are you oppossed to just colonies or to full influence?" "I can not speak for the other nations but from our point of view we frown at interference without pact and could care less when supported with treaty. We strongly oppose colonies where the oppressor has full control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthey Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) The EU is unphased by the declarations of the Pheonix Empire. If it is deemed proper to send peace-keepers and if necessary a military force to aid in repelling the HRE then that is fully within our right to do so. Germany has also made an open invitation to the nations of the world inviting assistance to help protect Germany (not destroy the HRE). Sending troops to help fight on German soil is not an invasion of the HRE, and therefore isn't covered by the MDP. If your only interest is protecting the sovereignty of the HRE as you claim it is, then sending military assistance to the inferior German force to ensure their sovereignty shouldn't' be an issue for you. Edited November 23, 2009 by iamthey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comrade nikonov Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 The Union of Belarus has begun securing a defensive line on the Belarus-Deutschland Border to ensure that refugees from Deutshland will be processed... accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 The EU is unphased by the declarations of the Pheonix Empire. If it is deemed proper to send peace-keepers and if necessary a military force to aid in repelling the HRE then that is fully within our right to do so. Germany has also made an open invitation to the nations of the world inviting assistance to help protect Germany (not destroy the HRE). Sending troops to help fight on German soil is not an invasion of the HRE, and therefore isn't covered by the MDP. If your only interest is protecting the sovereignty of the HRE as you claim it is, then sending military assistance to the inferior German force to ensure their sovereignty shouldn't' be an issue for you. The death of Roman soldiers violates their sovereignty too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthey Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) The death of Roman soldiers violates their sovereignty too. 1. If that is the case then the matter changes entirely. It goes from the Pheonix Empire sitting in a position of neutrality only looking to preserve the sovereignty of the HRE, to a position of inactive belligerent looking for an excuse to intervene. Anyone with any sense can clearly see that a peace keeping mission on German soil poses no substantive threat to HRE Sovereignty (and continued existence as a nation-state). 2. A peace keeping mission seeking to halt HRE invasion would avert the use of nuclear weapons at the cost of only a handful of soldiers on both sides. Conversely the use of nuclear weapons would lead to the deaths of many more roman lives, and constitute a greater violation of the HRE's sovereignty than an EU intervention. If you truly wish to preserve HRE sovereignty you should be supportive our involvement. 3. If they choose to violate the sovereignty of another nation they do so at their own risk. Any violation of their sovereignty incurred in the form of their soldiers dying (in an aggressive invasion) could be halted at any moment by them simply withdrawing to their own boarders. Blaming us for sovereignty violations incurred as a result of protecting another nation's sovereignty is completely counter intuitive. That being said, if that is your justification, then Germany defending itself from the invasion should also activate your MDP as that would constitute a violation of HRE sovereignty. Therefore if you are actually serious, you should invaded Germany right now. 4. Under westphalian sovereignty, which we are operating under here and now, the extent of their implied legal "protection" extends to the point where they begin encroaching on the legal protection of another state. In other words upon aggressively breaking the sovereignty of another state, particularly in the form of an outright invasion, they forfeit any right to claim umbrage behind their own sovereignty. 5. You don't need a treaty to act as a legal CB, there have been numerous historical examples where coalitions with no legal connection have intervened on behalf of states. (such as the invasion of Nordland). The CB Is merely a rational for war, in this case containing the HRE, and curtailing its imperialist movements. (Directed to your earlier point) Edited November 23, 2009 by iamthey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 The EU is unphased by the declarations of the Pheonix Empire. If it is deemed proper to send peace-keepers and if necessary a military force to aid in repelling the HRE then that is fully within our right to do so. Germany has also made an open invitation to the nations of the world inviting assistance to help protect Germany (not destroy the HRE). Sending troops to help fight on German soil is not an invasion of the HRE, and therefore isn't covered by the MDP. If your only interest is protecting the sovereignty of the HRE as you claim it is, then sending military assistance to the inferior German force to ensure their sovereignty shouldn't' be an issue for you. "Why is an Oceanic nation even in the EU?" OOC: You are listed as a member, Correct me if I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Martens Posted November 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 "We are henceforth activating our Treaty with Rheinmark. Have a good day." ( http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=68190 ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinian the Mighty Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) To the Holy Roman Emperor: You’ve put us in a nearly impossible position. We are bound in an alliance with Germany via the Treaty of Kalisz we signed with Prussia. Parliament members are already at each others throats in the debate of entering the war or not, and on which side. I will say that whichever side uses nuclear weapons first will loose Slavorussia’s support, uncertain as it may be. I will strive for peace, and an end to this war. I just hope you know what you’re doing. Signed, Dmitry Medvedev, Prime Minister To the Kaiser/Regent (ooc: ?) of Deutschland: The Slavorussian Parliament is divided on the war, such is the drawback of democracy as I’m sure you know. However even if I or the Tsar held total authority I doubt the decision would be any easier to make. You should know the conservative old guard in Slavorussia are pushing for war with Deutschland to punish you for your part in the Russo-Nordic war. Although I wouldn’t fear that becoming a reality as His Majesty has threatened to dissolve parliament if he even suspects they will take that route. I can say with great certainty that if Deutschland uses a nuclear weapon the empire will not be able to aid you in anyway and the same would apply for the HRE. For now I’ll continue to keep you updated on the situation in Moscow. Good luck for now. Signed, Dmitry Medvedev, Prime Minister Public announcement: Certain threats were lobbed in our direction, even if unknowingly, by the Phoenix Empire. The Treaty of Kalisz which we signed with Prussia carries over to Deutschland, and as a result we can potentially enter the war to defend Germany. The Phoenix Empire should know that their threats fall on deaf ears. Now a warning if we are forced to enter the war in Germany’s defense and the Phoenix Empire kills even one Slavorussia soldier, we'll make you regret it. ooc edit: "Good Luck and God Bless" /fail I forgot the people of Deutschland were pagans Edited November 24, 2009 by Justinian the Mighty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Martens Posted November 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) The reply was simple, "Please. We really wish to avoid nuclear conflict. Your intervention would make sure that we wouldn't ever become desperate enough as to need to do that. We will try our very best. But in the end it is but a matter of time. We have called our MDP allies, Rheinmark, to assist us as well. We will not fight alone. Remind the Slavorussians...they may dislike Germany. But Germany is not Expansionist anymore: HRE is. HRE resembles Nordland in that sense more than we ever will. If we fall, nobody will dare stop them anytime soon. And many other countries of Europe will fall after us. This time you have the option of starting the fight closer to the enemy gates. Lets go to their Capital. Lets not let them come to ours. Ura." Edited November 24, 2009 by Kaiser Martens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biohazard Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 While Furon is nothing more than an observer of a war on another continent, we couldn't help but notice the HRE's surrender terms. From what it is, "Surrender. There is no need for your soldiers to needlessly die. Renounce your pagan ways, your destructive Martencist Ideology, and we will not occupy the country as invaders from another country, but as your friends and brothers.Refuse, and we will continue in our wrath until your government stands no longer." They are committing the genocide of another culture, simply for not being the same as theirs. Take note, before responding to us, that we do not keep up to date on the war, and this was merely a point of observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HHAYD Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Before any of you start hurling nuclear weapons as if they were simply candy, consider this: Do you really want to play with another massive radiation fallout? Do you really want to catch civilians that couldn't outrun a nuke in mushroom clouds? Do you really want to force everyone in Europe to wear radiation protection suits for years to come? Do you really want to turn Europe into a nuclear wasteland again?! Nukes are for the weak-minded, especially when it comes to first-strike nuke policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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