Earogema Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) So I'm going to keep this short because I'd rather not write a wall of text for something so easily said. Yes, this is short. If it's not, don't read it. Very simply, I don't see a reason why Athens should get off scot free. Now, I like Athens, in fact, I like all of C&G. I always have. However, it just isn't just. Let us compare the cause of the Karma war with this conflict. Now, considering Ordo Verde, the NPO wasn't allowed to just say "sorry" after the attack. (Although it tried from what I remember, I could be wrong.) TORN did get out, even though they wanted blood just as bad as the NPO did. Course, MK was allied to them. As you know, I am no friend to the NPO. Never have been, never will be. However, this sort of thing strikes me as the very hypocrisy that the hegemony said would come if Karma won. I mean, if I remember correctly, TKoN actually had more members than did OV. Course, they didn't have a treaty with VE, who had a treaty with GOD, RIA, Rok, etc. It seems to me that the cold war is started. Nobody can effectively gauge the strength of the "sides" and thus most people are just going to play it safe. All we know is that we have multiple blocs (CDT, Citadel, C&G, Frostbite, Superfriends, LEO, a couple others I've missed, or ODPs) and tons of smaller blocs from there. It's a balkanization of the world it looks like. Nobody wants to set off the powerkeg though. Not until they know how much damage it'll do. Though I have to say, this is what I wanted when Vox was ended, so it works for me. I just wonder how the next war will change everything. tl;dr - NPO is evil, declare war on them. Edited November 16, 2009 by Earogema Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand I Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 I see what you did there and i agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 You'd think in this multipolar world that small-scale conflicts would not escalate into full blown global conflicts, but of course the treaty web is as all-encompassing as it ever was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 I think the difference is that Athens hasn't rolled a million small alliances like NPO had. I think that if we were to see this become a consistent pattern of behaviour from Athens, then the response from others may be different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archon Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Course, they didn't have a treaty with VE, who had a treaty with GOD, RIA, Rok, etc. </argument> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theArrowheadian Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 I felt this was just an obvious course of events and as for no action taken on Athens, it's because of the double standard and we as victors of the Karma War are becoming no better than what we sought to destroy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gantanX Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) i think people like athens better than NPO and afterall, people wont start any wars unless they know they'd win or at least have tons of allies backing their back.. Edited November 16, 2009 by gantanX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Next time we should roll whoever we disagree with. If we don't, we're just as bad as the Hegemony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lebubu Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 It's perfectly normal for a global war to start because an unprotected/unconnected alliance was raided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixoux Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 If an alliance does something you don't agree with, naturally, the only option is war. (or backroom threats whatev) Then when you get called out because others don't agree with your justification of warring the alliance you didn't agree with, the opposition rolls you. Then the original group that was in disagreement that now got rolled plans their revenge against the third group that disagreed with them, and the cycle completes itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) You're right about the size of the alliances, but that is where the similarities end. Athens intention was very limited, even if it went beyond what everyone sees as acceptable, it was meant as only a tech raid. They launched a few GAs and peaced out. NPO, on the other hand, launched a full scale war. They launched that full scale war knowing about OV's ties with Vanguard, VE etc. and knowing full well that those alliances and their allies (though NPO was optimistic in projecting how many) would be dragged into the conflict. Anyone with any common sense could look at that and see that the intent was not just an aggressive move at OV and most of us in Karma interpreted it as such. Not to mention NPO's history of aggression. OV was not a one time-mistake, NPO had a history of launching wars like that, Karma was just the first time in a long time that it failed. I'm not saying that what Athens did wasn't wrong, but the scale of the two things is really incomparable. It's like comparing stealing a cookie to stealing a car. Edited November 16, 2009 by Azaghul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacky Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 That's the thing they didn't get off scot-free at all which is testament to the statement that the political landscape is far different to what it was under Pax Pacifica. You have to take into account that it was a 39 member alliance, with little or no diplomatic connections, and yet immediately there was a massive reaction from the international community. If what you expected was the exact response that NPO got, then you'd expect for the same circumstances surrounding the events in question. Does TKoN have several MDP/MADP partners? Has Athens perpetuated countless wars without valid justification? What you'll notice is the circumstances surrounding the events are very, very different and so it would be unjust for there to be the same response. Essentially what I'm saying is the punishment needs to fit the crime. Athens is in the spotlight now and so their future actions will be judged more harshly. Enjoy the post-Hegemony world where even uninvolved parties can actually voice their concerns and not expect to receive threats or have their alliance leaders receive threats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buds The Man Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Because Athens has some very good allies that helped avoid this blowing up. This is pure speculation on my part but I would guess some of their allies talked to them rather sternly about the effects of this. Londo seems like a relatively intelligent person and saw that he was headed down the wrong road. I believe Athens will pay for this though it will never be public and while it will appear they have gotten off scott free its probably far from the truth. They have damaged not only their reputation but their allies as well things like this will not be forgotten anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC1 Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Firstly, do we really need another thread about this? Secondly, I fail to see how you can compare this single incident, to everything NPO et al did, which led to the karma war. Even if you ignore all of their past actions, NPO attacked OV with the intention of destroying them whereas Athens launched some GAs and offered peace. It's like saying assault and mass murder deserve equal sentences in real life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litha Riddle Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 In my opinion it takes more than saying sorry to make amends for your past. Its a hard long journey of working your guts out and self reflection to prove the words you say, and its not always easy to do so. But really if something is worth it, then you should stick at it and not give up hope that things can get better. Whether Londo is truly sorry for what he has done will be up to him to prove, not those of us in the peanut gallery. Just like our attempts to make amends will only been seen once we prove ourselves to those we hurt. It sucks that we all have to pay the price for our actions, but ultimately it is something that must be done for us to grow in to better people and alliances. I hold no ill will for those that hate us and wish to see us suffer, its our cross to bear if we wish to be forgiven. Yes, so maybe it will be an easier road for Athens, but I don't hold that against them. If we could find it so easy, then it'd be great but I'm not going to cry over being treated harshly. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger after all, and the harder the journey the more you grow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyriq Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) Context, context, context. Athens certainly spent a lot of political capital back-tailing away from their action, but only because of its appearance of looking so similar to what NPO got rolled for doing, not for it being the same as what NPO got rolled for doing. It did leave me with a question though: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...p;#entry1967926[/url'>']-snip-I leave you with this question. Is this a world of mighty deeds and bold action? Or is this a world dominated by those who feel that war should only be used to prevent or stop wars? [OOC]Only pixels were harmed in the making of this documentary, not people. In fact, I would daresay that people were helped. So, you have to ask yourself a question. Do you value pixels over people? Or do you value people over pixels?[/OOC] http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...p;#entry1968416']-snip-I am not happy with the state of things, where war is demonized at all times but pursued to the utter destruction of foes, with white peace even after weeks and weeks of beating being seen as 'merciful'. Is this more civilized than honorable raiding? I do not think it is. Do the intentions of Athens really deserve to be demonized at all? Also, if this is in response to a culture that has just kicked out the NPO for their "Might Makes Right" shtick, what does it say about Athens' intentions? Edited: Added links to quotes Edited November 16, 2009 by eyriq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcturus Jefferson Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) The cold war "started" during the last phases of the K War. And the multipolarity that formed from it is what actually protected KoN from Athens' raid. It's (mostly) not about morality. Athens fudged the bucket and endangered their sphere of influence. MK realizes that they need to play better ball than that to win and made Athens heel. It's pretty simple. Edited November 16, 2009 by Arcturus Jefferson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicalTrevor Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) 2 years planning how to beat down the little guy/black listing alliances/threatening alliances/disbanding alliances = 1 week tech raid on 39man alliance that has no ally Your logic > mine Edited November 16, 2009 by MagicalTrevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) Firstly, do we really need another thread about this?Then why are you in it?Other stuff you said I agree. Anyway, I think all the posts above each have a certain ring of truth to them. Edited November 16, 2009 by Kzoppistan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Strider Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 NPO = Pitbulls Athens = Golden Retrieves They are not the same of course, Golden Retrieves are family dogs. Pitbulls are Evil!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earogema Posted November 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) 2 years planning how to beat down the little guy/black listing alliances/threatening alliances/disbanding alliances = 1 week tech raid on 39man alliance that has no allyYour logic > mine A tech raid is still a war. Also, why do people keep saying that they had no allies, when they were also treatied to MASH, who was also an ally of Athens? Anyway, the point of the thread wasn't to start any more controversy over Athens/Knights who say Ni, rather it was to observe the effects of a multipolar world. EDIT: Actually rereading my own OP, it's both, but I really wanted more to address how the world was so fragmented and how that was the cause of nobody "bringing it." Edited November 16, 2009 by Earogema Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 2 years planning how to beat down the little guy/black listing alliances/threatening alliances/disbanding alliances = 1 week tech raid on 39man alliance that has no allyYour logic > mine Curious...I'd concede to your point about the history bit, but the "has no ally" bit stuck out to me. That makes it any better? It's better to attack an alliance that will not be able to defend itself? Pragmatically, yes, but I don't think your point here is pragmatism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stumpy Jung Il Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Because Athens has some very good allies that helped avoid this blowing up. This is pure speculation on my part but I would guess some of their allies talked to them rather sternly about the effects of this. Londo seems like a relatively intelligent person and saw that he was headed down the wrong road. I believe Athens will pay for this though it will never be public and while it will appear they have gotten off scott free its probably far from the truth. They have damaged not only their reputation but their allies as well things like this will not be forgotten anytime soon. I like this post. I think people should read what hes saying and believe in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flak attack Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 NPO = PitbullsAthens = Golden Retrieves They are not the same of course, Golden Retrieves are family dogs. Pitbulls are Evil!! One of the first things I see in this topic is an entirely reasonable post from Litha that made me think "Heh, I guess NPO is starting to get it" Unfortunately, you just destroyed any good will your alliance gained from me off Litha's post. Curious...I'd concede to your point about the history bit, but the "has no ally" bit stuck out to me. That makes it any better? It's better to attack an alliance that will not be able to defend itself? Pragmatically, yes, but I don't think your point here is pragmatism. Honestly, it's the logic behind the allies/lack of allies that seals the deal for me. Athens deliberately tried to keep the war small, localized and "clean" (relative). NPO attacked OV because they thought if would give them a chance to obliterate large portions of the game, then based on their track record, would have then extorted them for heinous amounts of tech and cash. Now that doesn't make Athens' actions acceptable, but it does make them better, thus deserving of a lesser punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicalTrevor Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Curious...I'd concede to your point about the history bit, but the "has no ally" bit stuck out to me. That makes it any better? It's better to attack an alliance that will not be able to defend itself? Pragmatically, yes, but I don't think your point here is pragmatism. NPO would threaten the allies of alliances they wanted to hit to politically isolate them, Athens didnt threaten anybody to achieve their goal (gaining tech) which is different to what NPO et als goal was (destroying alliances/enemies). I'm not defeding what Athens did i'm saying comparing it to the bevahiours of alliances pre-karma is hilarious. Months of baiting, bullying and political isolation is not comparable to 10minutes of checking a wiki to see if they have any allies. Also didnt we establish the Mash/Ni treaty didnt actually exist anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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