Supreme Court bans cruxific from public buildings

[Subtleknifewielder]

"The basic functioning of society. Consent, wither they are adults or not, and other such factors are part of how society works. For example, if two adults agree, they are allowed to duel to the death, but murder is not allowed. Also, the current demographic of Finland is that the majority are non-religious*, and yet do you see crime being rampant? No, because people understand the ideals of 'to each their own' and how to keep society running. You don't need a 2000 year old book to understand that stabbing your neighbor in the face when he steps on your lawn is wrong." -President Uberstein

OOC:

*I can make my own demographics, and remember, the Uberstein Empire owned the land for awhile.

IC: "No, but the influence of religion can still be felt in a largely atheist society. Take religion out of the equation completely, and an atheist will have no reason tyo remain 'good.'"

"Who is to say that consent is a good thing, while forcing anyone to do something is bad? Why is killing someone bad?"

OOC: yes, you can...but so too can I. neighbors have an influence as well.

[freakwars]

Golekh's Atheist Party would like to say one thing.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omipotent

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able, nor willing?

Then why call him God?

- Epicurus, 33 A.D.

The ruling majority in the Allthing would also like to make a statement

A piece of advice:

Treat your religion like your genitals. Don't show it out in public, and don't shove it down your childrens throats

[Subtleknifewielder]

Golekh's Atheist Party would like to say one thing.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omipotent

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able, nor willing?

Then why call him God?

- Epicurus, 33 A.D.

The ruling majority in the Allthing would also like to make a statement

A piece of advice:

Treat your religion like your genitals. Don't show it out in public, and don't shove it down your childrens throats

"How can Golekh say much in their situation, anyway? I'm surprsied your attackers haven't jammed your signals."

~Administrator Anderson

"We submit that God is both willing and able, but that he created all beings that exist with a choice to serve him or not. Evil comes from them, not from him."

~Coalition of Christian Churches

[freakwars]

"How can Golekh say much in their situation, anyway? I'm surprsied your attackers haven't jammed your signals."

~Administrator Anderson

"We submit that God is both willing and able, but that he created all beings that exist with a choice to serve him or not. Evil comes from them, not from him."

~Coalition of Christian Churches

The fighting is in Sri Lanka, while our capital is in Antarctica. Furon doesn't have a military force in the area.

So, are you saying that Christians never commit crimes?

Edited November 10, 2009 by freakwars

[Subtleknifewielder]

The fighting is in Sri Lanka, while our capital is in Antarctica. Furon doesn't have a military force in the area.

So, are you saying that Christians never commit crimes?

"I am sure that is not what they meant. however, our goverment has conducted a study in the past, interviewing numerous law-abiding citizens. We asked them the reason why they abided by the law...the most common answer among those who worhip a higher power? That they believe their deity is watching them all the time. One rarely commits a crime if they know they are going to be caught."

"Atheists could give few definite answers."

[freakwars]

"I am sure that is not what they meant. however, our goverment has conducted a study in the past, interviewing numerous law-abiding citizens. We asked them the reason why they abided by the law...the most common answer among those who worhip a higher power? That they believe their deity is watching them all the time. One rarely commits a crime if they know they are going to be caught."

"Atheists could give few definite answers."

Time Location Perpetrators Victims

1450 to 1792 Europe, New England, S. America Christians "Satan worshipers" & other heretics

Number of victims

Perhaps 50,000 to 100,000

For about 300 years, during the late Middle Ages and Renaissance periods, the Roman Catholic and Protestant faith groups were directly or indirectly responsible for the arrest, torture and execution of persons believed to worship Satan or express heretical religious ideas. Most of the death sentences were passed by civil courts, not by the churches. However, the Christian churches were indirectly involved:

They provided the theological foundation for the persecution of heretics in civil courts.

They created a false and unsupportable belief that large numbers of worshipers had sold their soul to Satan and were committing evil and homicidal acts.

Belief in Witches gradually dissipated during the Age of Enlightenment, as people began to question the reality of many long-held religious beliefs. Estimates on the number of victims range from 3,000 (from a Roman Catholic source) to 9,000,000 (from various Neopagan sources).

Time Location Perpetrators Victims Number of victims

1492 to now Western Hemisphere Western European Christians Aboriginals Millions or tens of millions

"For his second voyage to the Americas, Columbus took the title Admiral of the Ocean Sea and proceeded to unleash a reign of terror unlike anything seen before or since. When he was finished, eight million Arawaks -- virtually the entire native population of Hispaniola -- had been exterminated by torture, murder, forced labor, starvation, disease and despair." 1 Later European Christian invaders systematically murdered additional tens of millions of Aboriginal people, from the Canadian Arctic to South America. The exact number is unknown. Natives were murdered by warfare, forced death marches, forced relocation to barren lands, intentional and accidental spread of disease, poisoning, the promotion of suicide through the destruction of their cultural and religious heritage, etc. Even today, Canadian Natives have the highest suicide of any population group in the world.

The genocide against American Aboriginals is one of the most massive, and longest lasting genocidal program in human history. More details

Time Location Perpetrators Victims Number of victims

1770 to now Australia British invaders Aboriginal people 720 thousand

The European invasion of Australia started in 1788. The population of Aboriginals in the country was approximately 750,000. By 1911, the number had been reduced to 31,000. Most were decimated by diseases introduced by the invaders, against which the Aboriginals had no defense. Some 20,000 were murdered. In those days, "The Sydney Herald claimed that blacks had 'bestowed no labour upon the land-their ownership, their right, was nothing more than that of the Emu or the Kangaroo.' Courts rejected Aboriginal evidence, because non-Christians could not swear oaths, and white killers used 'the defense that Aboriginal morality did not exist'. The extermination of Aboriginals in Tasmania was particularly brutal; many white settlers would shoot them on sight. In 1830, the remaining 300 Aboriginals were ethnically cleansed from Tasmania. They were captured and transferred to Flinders Island. They signed a treaty which guaranteed their later return. It was never honored. By 1843, only 50 remained alive.

The atrocities continued into the 20th century. Between 1910 and 1970, "between one in three and one in ten indigenous children were forcibly removed from their families." They were placed with white families in order to absorb "these people into the general population." Aboriginals were finally granted citizenship in 1967. They still await an apology from the Government of Australia.

Time Location

1885 to early 1900s Democratic Republic of the Congo, formerly Belgium Congo and Congo Free State

Perpetrators Victims Number of victims

King Leopold II of Belgium and his colonial administration Congolese population Unknown. Estimates range from 3 million during part of the period, to 30 million.

Many millions of Congolese died in a massive genocide, starting in 1885 and continuing into the 20th century. The Congo Free State was controlled at the time by King Leopold II of Belgium. It was a regime of widespread forced labor, mass murder, mutilation and torture. MoreOrLess.au.com estimates that the population of the Congo declined from about 20 to 30 million to under nine million during this time of atrocity.

The Congress of Berlin gave King Leopold II administrative powers over the Congo Free State. According to the Siracd.com web site:

Leopold was interested in the Congo's natural resources. He used the native population as forced labor to acquire those resources. The human toll under Leopold's administration was staggering. People who resisted were beaten, tortured, mutilated or killed. Writer Algis Valiunas described the situation as "wickedness triumphant." 26

Author Conan Doyle was inspired to write The Crime of the Congo -- a book which he finished in eight days. It is "filled with graphic descriptions of violence and illustrated with photos of mutilated people, dealt with the atrocities committed in the Belgian Congo on behalf of King Leopold II." Doyle later campaigned for and end to the atrocities in the Congo. The situation gradually improved. 26

More details about this genocide

Time Location Perpetrators

1904 to 1907 Namibia, formerly German South-West Africa German government, (Christian) Hereros,

Victims Number of victims

Animists 35,000 to 105,000

This was the first genocide of the 20th century. Some Hereros have suggested that the Nazi Holocaust was patterned after this genocide some three and a half decades later.

Germany ruled Namibia from 1880 to 1915. In 1904, Herero warriors were angered at the German settlers who had enslaved their people, lynched their men, and stolen their land, cattle and women. On JAN-12, they massacred about 200 German civilians. Although the uprising ended on 1904-AUG-11, the German army continued to exterminate the Hereros until 1907, resulting in the deaths of perhaps 65,000 persons. As is usual in these mass slaughters, the number of victims is unknown. The Herero population alive at the time range from 50,000 to 120,000. About 15, 000 survived.

On 2004-JAN-12, the 100th anniversary of the Hereros uprising, Wolfgang Massing, Germany's ambassador to Namibia, expressed his regrets. He said that while history could not be undone, "we can give back to the victims and their descendants the dignity and honor of which they were robbed...I also wish to express how deeply we regret this unfortunate past."

Later in 2004, German Development Aid Minister Heidemarie Wieczorek-Zeul finally gave the Hereros what they have been asking repeatedly: her country's apology. She said: ""We Germans accept our historical and moral responsibility and the guilt incurred by Germans at that time....The atrocities committed at that time would have been termed genocide." She promised continuing economic assistance, but ruled out financial compensation for the descendents of the victims.

Namibia-travel.net describes Herero present-day spirituality: "The ancestral cult still plays an important role in the lives of many Herero people. In the evenings, they often sit in front of the 'Okuruo'; the holy fire, which may never be allowed to burn out. The chief establishes contact with the ancestors and in a loud self-talk, asks for advice and help or confesses mistakes and sins."

Time Location Perpetrators Victims Number of victims

1941 to 1945 Croatia Usta (Roman-Catholic/Fascist regime) Jews, Roma,Orthodox Christian Croats anti-fascist Croats. Unknown; estimates range up to one million

These atrocities were perpetrated by the Ustaša regime, the Independent State of Croatia, which was established in power by the Nazi government of Germany during World War II. They fiercely hated Serbs, Jews, Communists and all other non-Catholics. Their goals were to convert Croatia into a pure Croatian and Roman Catholic independent state. On 1941-JUL-22, Dr. Mile Budak, the Ustaša Minister of Education and Cults, said: "The movement of the Ustashi is based on religion. For minorities-Serbs, Jews and Gypsies, we have three million bullets. We shall kill one part of the Serbs. We shall transport another, and the rest of them will be forced to embrace the Roman Catholic religion. Thus, our new Croatia will get rid of all Serbs in our midst in order to become one hundred percent Catholic within ten years." 13

During 1941 to 1943, the regime slaughtered at least 250,000 Serb residents of Croatia and Bosnia, and more than 20,000 Jews. Most were systematically exterminated at the Jasenovac concentration camp, and similar facilities. "Ustaša units, often encouraged by Catholic clergy, carried out a program of compulsory conversion of Orthodox Serbs to Catholicism; resistance often resulted in murder. Some Serbs, particularly members of the elite, were not even offered the option of conversion to avoid being killed." 14 "Conditions in the Jasenovac camps were horrendous. Prisoners received minimal food. Shelter and sanitary facilities were totally inadequate. Worse still, the Ustaša guards cruelly tortured, terrorized, and murdered prisoners at will." 15 After mid-1942, a further 7,000 Jews were dispatched to Auschwitz-Birkenau in Poland for slaughter. "The Ustaša government was dissolved in May 1945. After the war, most of the Ustasa leaders escaped to South America or Spain." 16

"Since the end of World War II, political and ideological conflicts in the area have made the documentation and verification of victim statistics extremely difficult. To cover the trail of terror and murder, authorities of the Independent State of Croatia burned official records from the Jasenovac camps first in early 1943 and again upon evacuation in 1945." 17

On 1945-MAY-12, 600 inmates attempted to break out of the camp; only 70 succeeded. Former inmates meet on the site of the concentration camp annually on the anniversary of the event. In 2003, for the first time, a Croatian head of state joined in the remembrance. President Stipe Mesic expressed his "deepest regret for the innocent victims of those who tarnished Croatia's name." 17

Ooh, this list of genocides makes me feel very confident in Christian virtue.

Edited November 11, 2009 by freakwars

[Subtleknifewielder]

"Why do you focus on Chrisitanity? They are not the only religion out there, and not the only one in whose name atrocities have been committed."

"World War 1. World War 2. The Napoleonic Wars. The American Civil War. Each of these resulted in countless deaths. None of them were over any issue that could be largely considered religious. Yes, Atheists are certainly better than Christians."

OOC: Since you recognize most RL events even in the 20th century, you can't call these arguments invalid.

[freakwars]

"Why do you focus on Chrisitanity? They are not the only religion out there, and not the only one in whose name atrocities have been committed."

"World War 1. World War 2. The Napoleonic Wars. The American Civil War. Each of these resulted in countless deaths. None of them were over any issue that could be largely considered religious. Yes, Atheists are certainly better than Christians."

OOC: Since you recognize most RL events even in the 20th century, you can't call these arguments invalid.

I focus on Chrisitanity, because Christianity is the issue here.

Those were wars. Not genocide. In those wars they were not trying to destroy a whole ethnic group. They were fighting each other in order to keep or gain land. Yes, people died, but the vast majority were soldiers, not civvies.

[Kaiser Martens]

"I don't see why the world keeps meddling with affairs that do not concern their own business, affairs that only concern the people of Italy and this sovereign Country."

[Subtleknifewielder]

I focus on Chrisitanity, because Christianity is the issue here.

Those were wars. Not genocide. In those wars they were not trying to destroy a whole ethnic group. They were fighting each other in order to keep or gain land. Yes, people died, but the vast majority were soldiers, not civvies.

"So what makes genocide worse than wars--considering they kill just as many, if not more? World War 2 was attempted genocide...of several different groups simultaneously. Particularly of the Jews. The American Civil War had many ethnic reasons behind it."

[Jordosaur94]

"Why do you focus on Chrisitanity? They are not the only religion out there, and not the only one in whose name atrocities have been committed."

OOC: Exactly! There are always followers of any religion who wish to kill in the name of their religion, not just Christianity (*Cough* Radical Islam*Cough*)

[Sargun II]

OOC: Exactly! There are always followers of any religion who wish to kill in the name of their religion, not just Christianity (*Cough* Radical Islam*Cough*)

OOC: Radical Islam is not a religion, it is an ideology based upon twisted interpretations of Islam. Not only are you poorly misinformed but you are arrogant about it.//

"I might remind you all that human beings have a choice to do good or evil, regardless of their religion. If they make the choice to kill because of religion then they are not the true faithful."

[Subtleknifewielder]

OOC: Radical Islam is not a religion, it is an ideology based upon twisted interpretations of Islam. Not only are you poorly misinformed but you are arrogant about it.//

"I might remind you all that human beings have a choice to do good or evil, regardless of their religion. If they make the choice to kill because of religion then they are not the true faithful."

"And that is part of the core of our own beliefs."

~Christian coalition of Churches

Edited November 11, 2009 by Subtleknifewielder

[Jordosaur94]

OOC: Radical Islam is not a religion, it is an ideology based upon twisted interpretations of Islam. Not only are you poorly misinformed but you are arrogant about it.//

OOC: Oh yeah? Radical Islamists kill people in the name of Islam, and they have a distinctive battlecry: Allah Akbar, God is great. Whaddya say about that?

[Sargun II]

OOC: Oh yeah? Radical Islamists kill people in the name of Islam, and they have a distinctive battlecry: Allah Akbar, God is great. Whaddya say about that?

OOC: I say that you're a biased, arrogant man who wouldn't know the difference between an orange and a satsuma. It's Allahu Akbar, otherwise known as Takbir, and is said during times of joy, stress, battle and relief. It's a general statement said by Muslims, including in 1930's Pakistan where it was on their flag. It's also on the flag of Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan. Let us also not forget that it is said during the obligatory praying sessions done by all Muslims.

The phrase when said informally is almost equivalent to "Hallelujah".

As long as you continue to post about it here I will continue to refute your narrow-minded concepts, but I urge you to move this to the Boiler Room subforum.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Sargun

[Jordosaur94]

OOC: I say that you're a biased, arrogant man who wouldn't know the difference between an orange and a satsuma. It's Allahu Akbar, otherwise known as Takbir, and is said during times of joy, stress, battle and relief. It's a general statement said by Muslims, including in 1930's Pakistan where it was on their flag. It's also on the flag of Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan. Let us also not forget that it is said during the obligatory praying sessions done by all Muslims.

OOC: How am I arrogant when I think Radical Islam is the threat to world security today. And Hallelujah means 'praise the Lord' whereas "Allahu Akbar' means 'Allah is great'. They both mean different things. And plus I only think the Radicals are just the bad Muslims, there's good Muslims too. And besides, "Hallelujah' isn't used as a battle cry and a sadistic saying when "Christian Terrorists" (which don't exist) kill their victims. And Christianity didn't produce suicide bombers, the Chechens, or Al-Qaeda.

[Subtleknifewielder]

OOC: How am I arrogant when I think Radical Islam is the threat to world security today. And Hallelujah means 'praise the Lord' whereas "Allahu Akbar' means 'Allah is great'. They both mean different things. And plus I only think the Radicals are just the bad Muslims, there's good Muslims too. And besides, "Hallelujah' isn't used as a battle cry and a sadistic saying when "Christian Terrorists" (which don't exist) kill their victims. And Christianity didn't produce suicide bombers, the Chechens, or Al-Qaeda.

OOC: No, but we do produce our fair share of criminals, unfortunately. It's a fact of life.

Attatching the word 'radical' to a religion does not automatically turn it into another one altogether, which is what you appeared to say. I know it's not what yuo meant, but still...

enough with the Religious arguments. Sargun is right...they belong in the Boiler Room.

[Sargun II]

OOC: How am I arrogant when I think Radical Islam is the threat to world security today. And Hallelujah means 'praise the Lord' whereas "Allahu Akbar' means 'Allah is great'. They both mean different things. And plus I only think the Radicals are just the bad Muslims, there's good Muslims too. And besides, "Hallelujah' isn't used as a battle cry and a sadistic saying when "Christian Terrorists" (which don't exist) kill their victims. And Christianity didn't produce suicide bombers, the Chechens, or Al-Qaeda.

OOC: There are several things wrong with your points. Number one, Hallelujah means 'praise the lord' but Allahu Akbar means 'God is the greatest'. Do you know who Allah is? It's the same God you worship. Number two, I never said Hallelujah was used as a battle cry - but do Christian soldiers not pray before and after battle? Do they not thank God? Do Catholics not ask Saints for help? How is it any different than exclaiming that God is great? Finally, Islam did not produce the first suicide bombers, the Chechens were products of Russians, and al-Qaeda is regarded by disdain even by the Taliban.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Sargun

[Agostinho Neto]

OOC: This is not a Christianity Vs Islam debate, move it to the water boiler - and keep the comments IC.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Junio Borghese

[Uberstein]

IC: "No, but the influence of religion can still be felt in a largely atheist society. Take religion out of the equation completely, and an atheist will have no reason tyo remain 'good.'"

"Who is to say that consent is a good thing, while forcing anyone to do something is bad? Why is killing someone bad?"

OOC: yes, you can...but so too can I. neighbors have an influence as well.

"You don't seem to understand. Our laws are not based on Religion, they are based off of the philosophy of two concenting adults. We in Finland do not treat eachother with respect because of religion, it is because we understand how society works. Your attempts to use religion as a crutch is absurd, do not label us with your system." -President Uberstein.

[Subtleknifewielder]

"You don't seem to understand. Our laws are not based on Religion, they are based off of the philosophy of two concenting adults. We in Finland do not treat eachother with respect because of religion, it is because we understand how society works. Your attempts to use religion as a crutch is absurd, do not label us with your system." -President Uberstein.

"However much you would wish it otherise...were it not for religion...those laws would never have been conceived. And you still have to explain where you came up with the idea that consent is the only requirement for being 'good.'"

~Christian Coalition of Churches

[Uberstein]

"However much you would wish it otherise...were it not for religion...those laws would never have been conceived. And you still have to explain where you came up with the idea that consent is the only requirement for being 'good.'"

~Christian Coalition of Churches

"It came from the idea that everyone is their own sapient being, and at a certain age, are capable of being resonsible for their own actions. Again, you are reaching for straws, our laws are not based off of religious texts, but off of ideals non-related to religion. If we were to follow Christian laws, we would have to ban homosexuals, revoke women's rights, stone witches, all of which are written in the very bible you call the 'good book'. You can pretend all you like, but your pathetic religion is not the root of Finnish law.

Show me in your bible where it states that it is the right of oneself to do what they please unless it infringes on the rights of another? Your god promotes ignorance, how he enacted a law saying that Adam and Eve could not eat from the tree of knowledge without being cast from their home. He banished them when they became educated. He ordered his servants in the old testament to commit genocide, burn cities, and your bible promotes theses actions as just. It is also inconsistant, if God has given us free will, but at the same time knows everything that will happen, being omnipotent, does that not mean that he already knows who will end up in heaven or hell? That he has, simply by being omnipotent, damned billions to hell? You cannot have an all-knowing being that exists outside of time and still claim free will exists." -President Uberstein

[Silhouette]

'Perhaps religion was once neccesary, for less socially advanced peoples to maintain the proper order. These days however, we have such wonderful things as freedom of information, police forces, and, although it is far less common than the name suggests, common sense. A strong police force does much to replace the need for religion. Who needs god watching when you have the state?'

A statement from the Atheists of New South Wales.

[Comrade]

Crucifixes are mandatorily displayed in and/or on all Tahoan Federal Buildings

Ah Tahoe: The worst abuser of human rights and the least culturally diffused nation in the northern hemisphere. We find it rather hilarious that your nation is religious. You nation is clearly devil worshippers, because at the rate your policies are going, your leaders will certainly burn.

[Jordosaur94]

Ah Tahoe: The worst abuser of human rights and the least culturally diffused nation in the northern hemisphere. We find it rather hilarious that your nation is religious. You nation is clearly devil worshippers, because at the rate your policies are going, your leaders will certainly burn.

Yeah, well, Cascade is a Christian majority nation and we have better human rights than Tahoe.