Supreme Court bans cruxific from public buildings

[Agostinho Neto]

"All are equal for the law"

Article 8 of the Italian constitution

1. Religious denominations are equally free before the law.

2. Religious organizations have the right to organize themselves according to their own by-laws, provided they do not conflict with the italian legal system.

3. Their relationship with the state is regulated by law, based on agreements with their representatives.

ROMA - The Suprema Corte di Cassazione (Supremee Court of last resort) ruled that crucifixes should be removed from Italian classrooms and public buildings. The case was brought to the Constitutional Court. Using the principle of freedom of religion, the Constitutional Court said that crucifix in public buildings are against the principle of secularism of the state. The court also said putting a crucifix in a classroom restricts the right of parents to educate their children in conformity with their convictions.

Displaying crucifixes also restricts the "right of children to believe or not to believe" and could be "disturbing for students" from other religions and ethnic minorities. The Supreme Court of last resort, agreed with this view and ruled in favour, ordering the Italian government to remove the religious symbol from public schools and public buildings.

Representative of the major chatolic organizations said: "The ruling of the Supreme Court of last resort was received with shock and sadness." It was "wrong and myopic" to try to exclude a symbol of charity from education, they added. "Religion offered a vital contribution to the moral formation of people". Describing the rulling as "Strong but necessary", General Junio Borghese said: "It must be enforced with firmness. Italy has its culture, its traditions and its history, but religion symbols cannot be enforced. Those who come among us must understand and accept this."

Italian Foreign Minister, Roberto Ciano, said the court's decision had dealt a "Necessary blow to religious fundamentalism in an Italy of values and rights," adding it was a good precedent for other countries.

In a statement, Chatolic organizations added: “the Crucifix has always been a sign of God’s love, unity and welcoming for all humanity. It is sad that it might be considered as a sign of division, of exclusion or limitation of freedoms” but General Borghese answered "If the crucifix is a sign of God's love, is the electric chair a sign of Dr. Alfred P. Southwick's love?"

[Botha]

Privately, the Government of Transvaal sees this eschewment of the Christian essence of Italy as a step backwards for the Fascist government.

[Subtleknifewielder]

"For once, Promised Land agrees with an action taken by this fascist government. In a nation that is supposedly religiously free, having religious symbols on public property is self-contradictory. this will not bar the people themselves from wearing these symbols, however, we presume?"

OOC: Ironic...one of your closest allies disagrees, while a nation that hates you agrees with it...

[KingChris]

Although Texas doesn't really like Fascists, they have one suggestion to help this Fascist State:

Banning the Crucifix from public buildings is like removing beer from the Holy Roman Empire (no, not you, the state that was formerly Austria, mind you). The Crucifix is a part of Italian culture, which represents the many Catholics of Italy. Yes, there may be some non-Catholics, but as long as the Crucifix isn't offending to a majority of people, it shouldn't be banned.

[Serg92]

"We are strongly against this. Instead of just flat out saying that cruxifics are banned why not just say all religious symbols are banned. It just singles out the Christians and makes it seems that anyother religion can make thier symbols public. We urge a rapid change to this.

[Uberstein]

"The seperation of church and state is an admirable move, though instead of specifying crosses, you should ban all religious symbols." -President Uberstein

[Agostinho Neto]

Banning the Crucifix from public buildings is like removing beer from the Holy Roman Empire (no, not you, the state that was formerly Austria, mind you). The Crucifix is a part of Italian culture, which represents the many Catholics of Italy. Yes, there may be some non-Catholics, but as long as the Crucifix isn't offending to a majority of people, it shouldn't be banned.

There are many things that are part of the Italian culture. The chatolics have churches and private houses to show their religious symbols and follow their religion as long as it doesen't go against italian law, and those who follow a different religion or no religion and work in the public administration, or in public schools, must not be forced to work or study under someone else's religious symbol. In our system, religion must not interfere with the public life of the citizens and the nation.

"The seperation of church and state is an admirable move, though instead of specifying crosses, you should ban all religious symbols." -President Uberstein

The crucifix was the only religious symbol in public buildings. It is a law dated back to 1929 and we tought it was the time to move a step forward towards a more secularized society.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Junio Borghese

[Subtleknifewielder]

OOC: Ehem. i asked a question too...

[Agostinho Neto]

"This will not bar the people themselves from wearing these symbols, however, we presume?"

They can wear those symbols but they cannot excessively expose them (like placing them on a wall)

[Lynneth]

"Each his own. Schools in the HRE will continue to be able to display crucifixes in their classrooms if they wish to do so. Some do, other's don't. It's not our business what they show as long as they teach the children properly."

[Subtleknifewielder]

They can wear those symbols but they cannot excessively expose them (like placing them on a wall)

"Perfectly understandable."

[Jordosaur94]

We are rather shocked, but not surprised by this move. Given the fact that Fascism is an Atheist ideology (due to the fact that in Fascism, people are required to love the Government rather than loving God), we somewhat expected the Italian Government to remove Religious symbols from public places. In Cascade, is separation of Church from State, but not separation of God and State.

[Subtleknifewielder]

We are rather shocked, but not surprised by this move. Given the fact that Fascism is an Atheist ideology (due to the fact that in Fascism, people are required to love the Government rather than loving God), we somewhat expected the Italian Government to remove Religious symbols from public places. In Cascade, is separation of Church from State, but not separation of God and State.

"What is the difference?"

[Gnost Dural]

The Vatican will issue a statement on this later this evening.

OOC: If you misspell Catholic again as Chatolic, I'll smack you.

[Jordosaur94]

Well, Separation of Church and State is where the Government is prohibited from influencing Religion, whereas separation of God and State is where all mentions of God and all Religious symbols are removed from public places, much like what Italy's doing now.

[KingChris]

The Vatican will issue a statement on this later this evening.

OOC: If you misspell Catholic again as Chatolic, I'll smack you.

We urge that the Vatican try to kick the logic back into the Italians' minds as soon as possible, as most people who go to the Vatican frequently are Italian Catholics.

OOC: See what I've had to go through about "Chatolic?"

[Gnost Dural]

His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVII is deeply concerned with the state of affairs in Italy. Already, he has been in contact with the Dioceses of Italy and has contacted the rest of the Curia on how best to respond to this grave matter of the Faith. While it is clear that the ever present excuse of "separation of church and state" is being used in this instance, we remind Italy that it is because of the Church, that much of the culture, and national identity you have remains intact. Italy is fundamentally a Catholic nation, and comprises a large majority of Catholic nations given the huge role the Church has played on the continent. You once claimed that your government was in tune with the will of your people. That you retained the right to rule for the survival of Italy's culture, it's identity and it's people. We put forth that in the interests of Mr. Borghese's own relativism, he is destroying the very fabric of the Italian identity, slowly. We know this will not stop here, that the persecution of the Catholic Church, will not end with this act.

We agree with an ever growing assessment that this act was targeted solely at the Catholic faith, and that there were no mentions being made of other religious symbols. We put forth that given there was no ruling on general religious symbols, if a school were to place a Koran on a wall, or display a Buddah on a desk, would the government respond in kind? We strongly condemn this act of denial, both of Italy's people, and it's long standing culture in union with the Catholic Faith.

Bear in mind, Mr. Junio Borghese, we are deeply grateful for the land given to His Holiness. However, We will not cow tow to the clear and ever present sense of moral relativism, or atheism that appears present within the Italian state at this time. We strongly urge all Catholics to protest this action, and for the Cardinals, and Bishops outside of the Vatican walls within the Italian state, to protest this action by Mr. Borghese. If this means protesting in a peaceful, orderly manner outside the Courts, then so be it. If it is God's spirit that urges you to do so peacefully, then we will not condemn that which by the Grace of God, saves men.

OOC: As I was researching, I saw you just basically ripped this whole thing from the news article about the European courts. Not very original...

Edited November 9, 2009 by Gnost Dural

[KingChris]

A large group of Italian Catholics were seen outside the Suprema Corte di Cassazione. They numbered in roughly low thousands, and were seen carrying placards denouncing the act by Mr. Junio Borghese to ban crucifixes in public buildings. The group is seen chanting though largely peaceful. Police were also seen monitoring the situation as it awaited orders.

OOC: I don't think you can do that because it's godmodding. And it wouldn't be wise to encourage the people to protest because Junio would just simply arrest them.

[Gnost Dural]

OOC: I control the Catholic clergy around the wrold given that through the Roman Curia, and the Vatican, the Church generally takes orders from the Pope. I also think that Junio is being entirely unrealistic of the impact that his ruling would have. Most Italians are not in favor of the removal of Crucifixes IRL, and the only time it was suggested to do so was by a muslim and an Atheist.

In all, I think Junio is not really being realistic in assuming all Italians are fine with this, and that nobody would do anything. There would be, Just as in RL, a huge outcry.

[Uberstein]

OOC: You can't RP other people's citizens.

[KingChris]

OOC: I control the Catholic clergy around the wrold given that through the Roman Curia, and the Vatican, the Church generally takes orders from the Pope. I also think that Junio is being entirely unrealistic of the impact that his ruling would have. Most Italians are not in favor of the removal of Crucifixes IRL, and the only time it was suggested to do so was by a muslim and an Atheist.

In all, I think Junio is not really being realistic in assuming all Italians are fine with this, and that nobody would do anything. There would be, Just as in RL, a huge outcry.

OOC: RL=/=CNRP. Firstly, you can only RP other people's citizens with the other person's permission. If you have that permission, then I'm fine. Secondly, just because someone might not do something in RL doesn't mean it won't happen in CNRP.

[KingChris]

EDIT: Double post, please disregard.

Edited November 9, 2009 by KingChris

[Gnost Dural]

OOC: Very well. I've edited out that portion. I apologize to Junio for that oversight. Still, I think ignoring thousands of years of Italian tradition and culture, just because you want a single, homogeneous state is ludicrous. There need to be people protesting if this is realistic. I'm demanding that you RP it, but I am saying it needs to be in there if you want this to be a realistic RP.

[Subtleknifewielder]

OOC: Very well. I've edited out that portion. I apologize to Junio for that oversight. Still, I think ignoring thousands of years of Italian tradition and culture, just because you want a single, homogeneous state is ludicrous. There need to be people protesting if this is realistic. I'm demanding that you RP it, but I am saying it needs to be in there if you want this to be a realistic RP.

OOC: I assume you mean you are not demanding it?

[Agostinho Neto]

OOC: As I was researching, I saw you just basically ripped this whole thing from the news article about the European courts. Not very original...

OOC: Yes i know, i'm Italian and i agree with the ruling of the EU Court, that's why i decided to bring it here too. In Italy there is a huge ouctry actually, but IRL Italy is not fascist, anymore. In case you didn't notice, i roleplay a totalitarian fascist dictatorship where dissidents usually "disappear".

IC:

The Italian Government had stated many times in the past that religion is a private matter and it is part of the private sphere of the citizens' life. Religion and religious symbols must not interfere in the public life of the country or somehow gain an advantage on other religions by enforcing its symbols on people who might not agree with them. And just to remind some statistics about religion in Italy, Norse is actually the major faith, and Catholicism is second, but Norse symbols are not exposed in public buildings.

It is historically incorrect to define Italy a catholic country, we find it rather an excuse to enforce a religion on the Italian people, a religion that does not represent the majority, anymore. Before being a catholic country, Italy, the historical homeland of the Latin people and the Roman state, was a prominent pagan country where polytheism and pagan religion was part of everyday's public and private life and it's been like that for over 1000 years. Shall we build temples in honour of Apollo, Ceres, Juno, Diana, Jupiter and Mars and expose statues in public buildings?

The ruins of these acient traditions, definetaly older than catholicism and christianity, are still present in the Acient Imperial Forum in the very center of Rome, only a few blocs far from the ground of the Holy See, under the form of temples and statues in honour of Roman gods. When christianity became the predominant faith in the Roman Empire, a political move promoted by the Emperor and the Senate to gain the support of the masses, pagan temples and rituals had been dominating religious life of the citizens of Rome since their early stages of civilization and progress.

Our official position is that Italy has been influenced by many cultures in its 3000 years old story, from the Roman Empire, to the Byzantine era, the Holy Roman Empire, the State of the Church and the Kingdom of Italy, but we do not recognize the right to enforce catholic religion on our non-catholic population, in the name of this tradition.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Junio Borghese