Ordo Verde Announcement

[Gabe Logan]

Basing only on what's been said in this thread, it sounds like two wrongs don't make a right. Seems Tito shouldn't have offered a screenshot, be it to prove his side of something or otherwise. If he did, in fact, extend his term in government by postponing elections, then that wouldn't be cool either. Not convinced it happened that way, but if so, bad on Tito.

I can't decode the terms that Seth left under, but I haven't seen anything that suggests he was within rights to return at leisure, be it that he didn't like the way the alliance was running or otherwise, and take over the show. That would be a clear violation of the principles outlined in the Charter, so I'm confuse as to how anyone could support his actions. If that is what took place, and if the other allegations of breaking charter law at will to suit his own purposes are true, then I'm not sure why anyone would stay and follow him as a leader...but each to their own.

Like I said earlier on, there are 3 sides to every story...in this case...The Seth/VE side, Zen/Tito side, and the truth.

Seems to be resolved, but personally, I think Zen got a bum deal.

[Iotupa]

And I'm not convinced that we got the whole truth...or ever will.

Surely you have been here long enough to know this by now and expect nothing else, Hal.

[Delta1212]

Basing only on what's been said in this thread, it sounds like two wrongs don't make a right. Seems Tito shouldn't have offered a screenshot, be it to prove his side of something or otherwise. If he did, in fact, extend his term in government by postponing elections, then that wouldn't be cool either. Not convinced it happened that way, but if so, bad on Tito.

I can't decode the terms that Seth left under, but I haven't seen anything that suggests he was within rights to return at leisure, be it that he didn't like the way the alliance was running or otherwise, and take over the show. That would be a clear violation of the principles outlined in the Charter, so I'm confuse as to how anyone could support his actions. If that is what took place, and if the other allegations of breaking charter law at will to suit his own purposes are true, then I'm not sure why anyone would stay and follow him as a leader...but each to their own.

Like I said earlier on, there are 3 sides to every story...in this case...The Seth/VE side, Zen/Tito side, and the truth.

Seems to be resolved, but personally, I think Zen got a bum deal.

The problem with this is that he didn't return at leisure to run the show and nobody is following him as leader because he's not in government at OV and isn't running for government at OV. That sort of shoots a hole in the claim that he came back to take power.

[King DrunkWino]

I'd ask you to try to stop your efforts as you continuously and futilely try to appear smarter than the room, but I don't see that happening, so how about you just take a sip from this and go have a seat, hmm?

Thank ya sweetcheeks, but I take my coffee black.

[leprecon]

You broke OV's charter by refusing to hold elections for your position after your term of 3 months was up. Currently, you had spent 5 months in office and were insisting you still had another month left to go. Combined with your past despicable acts, Peter was completely within his rights to remove you. Zenergy was enabling this to happen due to the fact that you two are friends (thus making a 2/3 vote impossible, and you effectively establishing yourself permanently in office).

You have put your foot in your mouth enough in the past, but by all means continue, I have no problem elaborating on what kind of character you really are if necessary.

For the record, Seth never had any plans of running for OV government (hes helping out before he [occ: leaves home for a while]) and currently Peter is holding elections for the two vacant positions. So yea, sweet coup? lol I'm glad to have facilitated such a success.

just wanna get the events straight to see if I know everything.

Tito and zenergy are great buddies, and both become OV triumvirs.

Tito refuses to hold elections for his position, as ordered by charter, and Zenergy backs him because they are such good friends.

So now Tito and Zenergy effectively coup OV by disregarding its charter and all Tito does is give some people some powers on forums.

Then Peter counter-coups with the backing of VE (and help of Sethb).

Now Tito (and Zenergy ?) claim they got couped by Sethb (who doesnt have any significant position in OV ?) while Peter is finally holding promised elections.

also, Tito proposed to show some screenshots to fran (while she was NPO) but fran didnt accept, and he also "backed up" the forums (which may or may not be for legit reasons) And seth controlled the OV irc channel and he may or may not have refused to give it back to tito/zenergy

[sethb]

Here's the facts from beginning to end:

1) I was accepted back into OV after my vacation in VE legally, and as a general member.

2) Tito did refuse to hold elections, even after it was made clear to him that holding office for 5 months is not a violation that will be ignored. On top of that, he tried to insist on staying in office longer. Simple fact of the matter is he most likely would have been re-elected if he only would take the chance, yet it seems fear of loosing "power" clouded his judgment.

3) Me and Peter consulted VE as a close friend and ally about what to do on the matter. They were shown proof of Titos refusal and tenure, and they determined they supported Me, Peter, and (at the time) Zenergy in whatever actions they felt were needed to rectify the situation.

4) Tito appeared on IRC and began to proclaim that I had couped him. Impero responded that VE does not conciser him to be a valid government member of OV. At this time, he offered Fran from NPO screen shots of his government forums, which consequently only showed logs of me registering #ov (Tito had been inactive for so long that it deregistered).

5) Zenergy spoke with Cornelius, who gave him the background of the situation, a full two days prior to him removing Peters admin. Zenergy responded with anger and an all around offensive attitude. Logs were provided during negotiations of this.

6) Tito was removed from OV.

7) Zenergy, upon learning this, demasked Peter and removed his admin access and restored Titos. Tito then copied all information off the OV forums. Zenergy then applied and was accepted to GUN. This is confirmed by the admin logs.

8) Negotiations, cancellation, release, now we are here.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

Edited October 17, 2009 by sethb

[Gabe Logan]

Here's the facts from beginning to end:

1) I was accepted back into OV after my vacation in VE legally, and as a general member.

2) Tito did refuse to hold elections, even after it was made clear to him that holding office for 5 months is not a violation that will be ignored. On top of that, he tried to insist on staying in office longer. Simple fact of the matter is he most likely would have been re-elected if he only would take the chance, yet it seems fear of loosing "power" clouded his judgment.

3) Me and Peter consulted VE as a close friend and ally about what to do on the matter. They were shown proof of Titos refusal and tenure, and they determined they supported Me, Peter, and (at the time) Zenergy in whatever actions they felt were needed to rectify the situation.

4) Tito appeared on IRC and began to proclaim that I had couped him. Impero responded that VE does not conciser him to be a valid government member of OV. At this time, he offered Fran from NPO screen shots of his government forums, which consequently only showed logs of me registering #ov (Tito had been inactive for so long that it deregistered).

5) Zenergy spoke with Cornelius, who gave him the background of the situation, a full two days prior to him removing Peters admin. Zenergy responded with anger and an all around offensive attitude. Logs were provided during negotiations of this.

6) Tito was removed from OV.

7) Zenergy, upon learning this, demasked Peter and removed his admin access and restored Titos. Tito then copied all information off the OV forums. Zenergy then applied and was accepted to GUN. This is confirmed by the admin logs.

8) Negotiations, cancellation, release, now we are here.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

Fair enough.

[leprecon]

Here's the facts from beginning to end:

...

I hope this clears up any confusion.

Yes it does, thanks

[Il Impero Romano]

I just wanted to make a quick comment on the significance of point 5 in Seth's post above. First, its important to note that although (as the facts indicate) Tito is clearly in the wrong and Peter's response was warranted, the validity of Tito's claim had absolutely no bearing on the situation with Zenergy. Zenergy's actions alone are grounds for punishment, and his reasoning for committing the trespasses that he did are completely irrelevant.

The only consideration that needed to be shown to his motives was in respect to GUN's contention (which subsequently lead to the cancellation in the OP) that they would not let Zenergy held responsible because he claimed he believed was in the right at the time that he did what he did and they simply believed him over OV. However, his conversation with Cornelius prior to Titos expulsion clearly showed that he knew exactly what was going on prior to demasking Peter (etc, etc...), and there is no way he could have thought otherwise. After GUN was shown all the facts, it was just plain a matter of them wanting to protect a friend despite the overwhelming weight of the evidence against him; which honestly is something I can understand but I think it took them quite some time to realize the implications of protecting him despite that.

When I first learned of this situation, I really did not anticipate it even being any sort of issue. The facts and documentation of all that surrounds it are so clear, it did not really seem like there was any way that this could be something besides cut and dry. How foolish of me. I think Zenergy himself summed up why things ended up the way they did here best:

I stand by my innocence in light of the facts

...and GUN believed him for a time. That's all. I hope Seth's post cleared things up for anyone that was confused.

Edit: Just read back, and Lonley Man...awesome lol I look forward to seeing what your crystal ball tells you now that its over and the facts are out in the open

Edited October 17, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[darkfox]

Well, put it this way, as someone who until recently was a government member of a SuperFriends alliance with all the masking privileges that holds, just because CDT is under the impression that The SuperFriends hates them does not remotely make it true. If my memory hasn't failed me completely, allow me to tell you that The SF did not hate CDT. There might not be an overwhelming sentiment of love there, but that's a pretty far cry from hate.

Of course, that might interfere with the popcorn-fest of drama brewing here. With that in mind, I'll just let the smart people file away the above peek into the innards of The SF while you and the other kettle stirrers continue your noble quest of manufacturing entertainment for the masses.

I do not recall anyone from the CDT making that claim. Or anyone from the CDT taking part in any of this speculation.

On topic though, I am indeed happy this was settled in a (mostly) peaceful manner.

[King DrunkWino]

I do not recall anyone from the CDT making that claim. Or anyone from the CDT taking part in any of this speculation.

No they weren't. Which is kinda symmetrical since the one (me) giving the rebuttal to said claim isn't a part of the SF.

[darkfox]

No they weren't. Which is kinda symmetrical since the one (me) giving the rebuttal to said claim isn't a part of the SF.

Touche, except you had said that you were former gov in a SF alliance.

Edit: clarification.

Edited October 17, 2009 by darkfox

[Biff Webster]

Considering Sethb isn't in government and isn't running for government, that sure is a bang up coup he must have staged!

I don't think he needs to claim a title to change the power structure there. I think having the ear of the VE Government and affecting who they recognize as lawful is enough.

I'm curious though, was the evidence VE obtained also screenshots?

[Il Impero Romano]

I don't think he needs to claim a title to change the power structure there. I think having the ear of the VE Government and affecting who they recognize as lawful is enough.

I'm curious though, was the evidence VE obtained also screenshots?

Please read mine and Seth's posts 1 page back.

Also, Seth will be completely inactive in the coming months, so your concern certainly isn't warranted.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[bakamitai]

You broke OV's charter by refusing to hold elections for your position after your term of 3 months was up. Currently, you had spent 5 months in office and were insisting you still had another month left to go. Combined with your past despicable acts, Peter was completely within his rights to remove you. Zenergy was enabling this to happen due to the fact that you two are friends (thus making a 2/3 vote impossible, and you effectively establishing yourself permanently in office).

You have put your foot in your mouth enough in the past, but by all means continue, I have no problem elaborating on what kind of character you really are if necessary.

For the record, Seth never had any plans of running for OV government (hes helping out before he [occ: leaves home for a while]) and currently Peter is holding elections for the two vacant positions. So yea, sweet coup? lol I'm glad to have facilitated such a success.

Why does seth have Founder access in #ov?

[sethb]

Why does seth have Founder access in #ov?

Because I re-registered it after Tito let the foundership expire.

[bakamitai]

Because I re-registered it after Tito let the foundership expire.

Fair enough. I assume there will be an orderly transition of power once this whole mess is straightened out?

[sethb]

You are correct.

[Weirdgus]

What was/is the cancellation period on the OV - GUN MDoAP ?

Edited October 18, 2009 by Weirdgus

[sethb]

What was/is the cancellation period on the OV - GUN MDoAP ?

48 hours.

[Schattenmann]

I've found quite the opposite to be true, but like all good things, an explanation will come in time.

A full explanation from OV is forthcoming.

The OP is no place for explanations. derp.

The Lonely Man is actually completely correct. I'd be interested to know his source.

DarkFoxDemon! Dun! dun! DUN!

Ok, onto the meaty stuff:

I'd like to shed some light on it from someone's who actually involved.

Sure I offered screenshots of our forums to Fran. They were of Seth not giving back the channel (#ov) when he was an ordinary member or OV after he left OV and then came back. Fran said no, so i never gave them to her. I wanted to give them to her because she did not believe me that SethB would do that. After Morey, our MoIA resigned, I put up emergency elections for the position. Zenergy was elected through fair processes. The government was Petar at Minister of Defense, Zenergy as Internal Affairs, and I at Foreign Affairs. Soon, SethB pestered me and pestered me about elections. They were about 2-3 weeks away at that point.

When SethB took over the #ov channel, he deop'ed government. I would have probably been fine with sops.

SethB continued to pester and pester. He also would not give back our channel, #ov. The government had decided that we needed to deal with SethB. Zenergy and I decided that we needed to make a new channel because of this. we made #ordoverde.

Soon after, Impero of VE issued a statement that I had gone rogue and was not recognized as a member of the government of OV. I found this confusing, but i immediately recognized it as Seth's doing because he's wanted us to merge with VE for a long time. That's also why he came back(probably). I'm not sure of many details after that, but after Zenergy was elected, I made sure all three triums had full admin access. I made a backup of the board in case anything would go wrong because i wanted to save all the info up to this point because I needed to make sure i kept SethB's public rebuke of government and instructions to give up the channel to one of the triums. Our boards are hosted by a member of VE on their personal server. After this, i'm not sure what happened but soon i was banned from the boards, and i was being attacked for actually giving screenshots to fran, not holding elections (charter broken?) and apparently other things. Zenergy continued to fight for the right government but Seth, or someone else got to Petar and he has sided with Seth....

Its quite obvious that VE has facilitated a coup on OV to put Seth back.

I found it funny that SethB has broken the charter on many occasions before and did so now.

Apparently I wasn't rolling over to VE enough.

Tito

EDIT: after reading the other thread, I thought i'd throw this out there. I've had Admin since before SethB was emperor. He was too busy getting drunk to do anything, so he's the one that gave me access.

You broke OV's charter by refusing to hold elections for your position after your term of 3 months was up. Currently, you had spent 5 months in office and were insisting you still had another month left to go. Combined with your past despicable acts, Peter was completely within his rights to remove you. Zenergy was enabling this to happen due to the fact that you two are friends (thus making a 2/3 vote impossible, and you effectively establishing yourself permanently in office).

You have put your foot in your mouth enough in the past, but by all means continue, I have no problem elaborating on what kind of character you really are if necessary.

For the record, Seth never had any plans of running for OV government (hes helping out before he [occ: leaves home for a while]) and currently Peter is holding elections for the two vacant positions. So yea, sweet coup? lol I'm glad to have facilitated such a success.

So here's what we've got here. Everyone pay attention because I'm Schattenmann. The following paragraphs are in response to Tito and Impero's posts quoted above.

At the time that Tito was trying to prove his point to Francesca by offering to show her a screenshot confirming his argument, he was a ministerial/triumvirate-level government member of Ordo Lulze. Viridian Confidente and SethB--a peon--thought this was unacceptable, and spying. Scrrrrrk! What is spying? If Tito is at the top of the government of OV, then he can do whatever he wants with OV's internal information. The information he offered was retarded and had no bearing on OV's security. As the leader of CoJ I screencap our forums and post them all the time, no one has ever accused me of spying on my own alliance by doing so--because I'm in charge and I can do what I want with our internal information, and besides that, any such claim would be idiotic. If I tell Francesca that Biff Webster is a huge jerkbag, she doesn't believe it, then I screenshot a post of him being a jerkbag to prove it, I'm not a spy.

Later, fearing the result of VE's meddling (more on that later), Tito makes a backup of OV's forum. Since you might as well eat the whole cake as one piece, VE and SethB define this emergency procedure as spying as well.

Next, the entirely hilarious matter of VE's imperialist agenda. Funny because it's true and scary because apparently the members of Viridian Empire's governement that are speaking on the matter think there's nothing wrong or odd about telling an ally who is or is not in the ally's government based on the Empire's foreign interpretation of the ally's charter.

We see this attitude not only in VE's posts regarding the current situation, but also here:

They hardly even attacked [uSA], then tried to help them rewrite their charter and give them overall guidance to succeed(even offered a protectorate if I recall) :x I could see where it could be seen as otherwise without being there though haha

Attacking alliances to "educate them;" Forcing alliances to rewrite their charters after defeat; Pressuring the defeated to accept a protectorate--Where have we seen this before? Oh yeah! it's why everyone decided to bust imperialist NPO's head: the "Re-Education of DevilDogs War," viceroys and charter revisions on Legion, GATO, et al. Imperialism is imperialism regardless of how stongly the imperialists regard it as "help."

Article I - Sovereignty

Both signatories shall retain their sovereignty and shall not take any action, directly or indirectly, that would threaten the sovereignty of the other signatory.

Viridian Entente has no legitimate say in who is or is not in Ordo Verde's government. Viridian Entente has no legitimate say in why anyone is or is not a member of OV's government. VE's "backing" or "support" of one faction of OV's government or another is in direct violation of OV's sovereignty regardless of treaties, and is in direct violation of VE's treaty with OV in that VE's action directly threaten the sovereignty of OV.

SethB is a rebel instigator who is unhappy with the way his old alliance was being run, and whether he is now in power or not, his collaboration with VE to put Viridian soldiers on Verdean streets is an act of treason.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Schattenmann

[Il Impero Romano]

The OP is no place for explanations. derp.

DarkFoxDemon! Dun! dun! DUN!

Ok, onto the meaty stuff:

So here's what we've got here. Everyone pay attention because I'm Schattenmann. The following paragraphs are in response to Tito and Impero's posts quoted above.

At the time that Tito was trying to prove his point to Francesca by offering to show her a screenshot confirming his argument, he was a ministerial/triumvirate-level government member of Ordo Lulze. Viridian Confidente and SethB--a peon--thought this was unacceptable, and spying. Scrrrrrk! What is spying? If Tito is at the top of the government of OV, then he can do whatever he wants with OV's internal information. The information he offered was retarded and had no bearing on OV's security. As the leader of CoJ I screencap our forums and post them all the time, no one has ever accused me of spying on my own alliance by doing so--because I'm in charge and I can do what I want with our internal information, and besides that, any such claim would be idiotic. If I tell Francesca that Biff Webster is a huge jerkbag, she doesn't believe it, then I screenshot a post of him being a jerkbag to prove it, I'm not a spy.

Later, fearing the result of VE's meddling (more on that later), Tito makes a backup of OV's forum. Since you might as well eat the whole cake as one piece, VE and SethB define this emergency procedure as spying as well.

Next, the entirely hilarious matter of VE's imperialist agenda. Funny because it's true and scary because apparently the members of Viridian Empire's governement that are speaking on the matter think there's nothing wrong or odd about telling an ally who is or is not in the ally's government based on the Empire's foreign interpretation of the ally's charter.

We see this attitude not only in VE's posts regarding the current situation, but also here:

Attacking alliances to "educate them;" Forcing alliances to rewrite their charters after defeat; Pressuring the defeated to accept a protectorate--Where have we seen this before? Oh yeah! it's why everyone decided to bust imperialist NPO's head: the "Re-Education of DevilDogs War," viceroys and charter revisions on Legion, GATO, et al. Imperialism is imperialism regardless of how stongly the imperialists regard it as "help."

Viridian Entente has no legitimate say in who is or is not in Ordo Verde's government. Viridian Entente has no legitimate say in why anyone is or is not a member of OV's government. VE's "backing" or "support" of one faction of OV's government or another is in direct violation of OV's sovereignty regardless of treaties, and is in direct violation of VE's treaty with OV in that VE's action directly threaten the sovereignty of OV.

SethB is a rebel instigator who is unhappy with the way his old alliance was being run, and whether he is now in power or not, his collaboration with VE to put Viridian soldiers on Verdean streets is an act of treason.

Mmm...you did not read a single thing past the first few pages, did you? Or, more likely, you did read them and felt you could get people to ignore the facts by saying "Everyone pay attention because I'm Schattenmann." followed by a bunch of things that have already been addressed and disproven in hopes that, knowing people usually one read the last few posts of a conversation, you could misdirect the thread to OV's determent from there. You seem like a good guy, why the blind hate? I mean really, the facts are extremely clear most notably in the past few pages.

Here's a recap of the facts, in the event that you really did make a good faith error and honestly missed it:

Here's the facts from beginning to end:

1) I was accepted back into OV after my vacation in VE legally, and as a general member.

2) Tito did refuse to hold elections, even after it was made clear to him that holding office for 5 months is not a violation that will be ignored. On top of that, he tried to insist on staying in office longer. Simple fact of the matter is he most likely would have been re-elected if he only would take the chance, yet it seems fear of loosing "power" clouded his judgment.

3) Me and Peter consulted VE as a close friend and ally about what to do on the matter. They were shown proof of Titos refusal and tenure, and they determined they supported Me, Peter, and (at the time) Zenergy in whatever actions they felt were needed to rectify the situation.

4) Tito appeared on IRC and began to proclaim that I had couped him. Impero responded that VE does not conciser him to be a valid government member of OV. At this time, he offered Fran from NPO screen shots of his government forums, which consequently only showed logs of me registering #ov (Tito had been inactive for so long that it deregistered).

5) Zenergy spoke with Cornelius, who gave him the background of the situation, a full two days prior to him removing Peters admin. Zenergy responded with anger and an all around offensive attitude. Logs were provided during negotiations of this.

6) Tito was removed from OV.

7) Zenergy, upon learning this, demasked Peter and removed his admin access and restored Titos. Tito then copied all information off the OV forums. Zenergy then applied and was accepted to GUN. This is confirmed by the admin logs.

8) Negotiations, cancellation, release, now we are here.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

I just wanted to make a quick comment on the significance of point 5 in Seth's post above. First, its important to note that although (as the facts indicate) Tito is clearly in the wrong and Peter's response was warranted, the validity of Tito's claim had absolutely no bearing on the situation with Zenergy. Zenergy's actions alone are grounds for punishment, and his reasoning for committing the trespasses that he did are completely irrelevant.

The only consideration that needed to be shown to his motives was in respect to GUN's contention (which subsequently lead to the cancellation in the OP) that they would not let Zenergy held responsible because he claimed he believed was in the right at the time that he did what he did and they simply believed him over OV. However, his conversation with Cornelius prior to Titos expulsion clearly showed that he knew exactly what was going on prior to demasking Peter (etc, etc...), and there is no way he could have thought otherwise. After GUN was shown all the facts, it was just plain a matter of them wanting to protect a friend despite the overwhelming weight of the evidence against him; which honestly is something I can understand but I think it took them quite some time to realize the implications of protecting him despite that.

When I first learned of this situation, I really did not anticipate it even being any sort of issue. The facts and documentation of all that surrounds it are so clear, it did not really seem like there was any way that this could be something besides cut and dry. How foolish of me. I think Zenergy himself summed up why things ended up the way they did here best:

QUOTE

I stand by my innocence in light of the facts

...and GUN believed him for a time. That's all. I hope Seth's post cleared things up for anyone that was confused.

QUOTE (Biff Webster @ Oct 18 2009, 12:54 AM) *

I don't think he needs to claim a title to change the power structure there. I think having the ear of the VE Government and affecting who they recognize as lawful is enough.

I'm curious though, was the evidence VE obtained also screenshots?

Please read mine and Seth's posts 1 page back.

Also, Seth will be completely inactive in the coming months, so your concern certainly isn't warranted.

QUOTE (bakamitai @ Oct 18 2009, 12:39 AM) *

Why does seth have Founder access in #ov?

Because I re-registered it after Tito let the foundership expire.

QUOTE (sethb @ Oct 17 2009, 08:42 PM) *

Because I re-registered it after Tito let the foundership expire.

Fair enough. I assume there will be an orderly transition of power once this whole mess is straightened out?

You are correct.

(<--Seth)

The quotes may have came out a bit screwy, but I think you can decipher it.

So, lets recap:

1) Facts! The logs to fran thing was more of a small supporting instance of incompetence, read the rest please.

2) Reason for the complication was GUN is friends with Zenergy.

3) Seth really never has had plans to be OV gov, he went back just to help, and he wont even be around shortly (occ: I dont think he will be even able to play anymore, so seriously the coup thing dosent work) Plus, Peter who has been and still is Triumvir is now holding legitimate elections.

4) Seth only registered #ov because Tito was to inactive to keep it registered himself, and is gladly turning it over when the elections are done and things are back to normal.

So, all in all, you have no basis for anything you said, and everything real points to the opposite of your statements. Please, if you just plain did not read the past few pages, say so and don't try to defend it, like I said you seem like a good guy.

[Schattenmann]

So, all in all, you have no basis for anything you said, and everything real points to the opposite of your statements. Please, if you just plain did not read the past few pages, say so and don't try to defend it, like I said you seem like a good guy.

In fact, I read everything before posting. I'm just that kind of guy.

So, lets recap:

1) Facts! The logs to fran thing was more of a small supporting instance of incompetence, read the rest please.

VE considers its imposition of martial law on OV as justifiable because Tito and Zen were considered incompetent by VE. Imperialism: Check.

2) Reason for the complication was GUN is friends with Zenergy.

nardblarg

3) Seth really never has had plans to be OV gov, he went back just to help, and he wont even be around shortly (occ: I dont think he will be even able to play anymore, so seriously the coup thing dosent work) Plus, Peter who has been and still is Triumvir is now holding legitimate elections.

Whether SethB wants or intends to be in OV's resulting government is immaterial: He opened the gate to foreign invaders because he was unhappy that OV "had a cancer in it." (Sidenote: It still does)

VE defines elections being held due to Petar's VE-backed coup as "legitimate" because they're the elections VE has made possible with their support of the coup. Totally not imperialism at all.

4) Seth only registered #ov because Tito was to inactive to keep it registered himself, and is gladly turning it over when the elections are done and things are back to normal.

SethB takes control of OV's channel and then refuses to release it to anyone that he does not deem worthy. Treason: Check.

If VE was concerned as an ally or friend with OV's internal issues (ignoring elections, etc) then their role as an ally or friend is to inform OV of their concerns, suggest their desired outcome, and give help if OV asks for it. If OV rejects VE's concerns, then it's not VE's right or responsibility to force their desires on OV.

The same is true for SethB as a regular member. If he thought the charter was being violated, then he should have brought the matter to OV's membership's attention. If the membership of OV didn't care enough to force compliance with the charter, then SethB and any other malcontents' next step is to leave OV, not ask VE to poke their fingers into OV.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Schattenmann

[Gamemaster1]

All you did, Il Impero Romano, in that last post was insult Schatt. Try actually arguing against what he said, he brought up some good points you completely ignored. The facts you posted were not relevant to the points he argued.

EDIT: My bad, I posted too slow. I was addressing Il Impero Romano and didn't quote him.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Gamemaster1

[Vilien]

The same is true for SethB as a regular member. If he thought the charter was being violated, then he should have brought the matter to OV's membership's attention. If the membership of OV didn't care enough to force compliance with the charter, then SethB and any other malcontents' next step is to leave OV, not ask VE to poke their fingers into OV.

As much as Seth's victory was contingent on his ties with VE, the general membership supported the "coup".