The Amazing Survivalist Alliance Race

[Fallen Fool]

You guys are so cute when you argue amongst yourselves. And it was especially adorable when you were all comparing your casualties earlier.

This is what you wanted, Planet Bob. This is the direction you chose. Enjoy.

Whatever the current worlds flaws, I can still safely say that I enjoy it far more then the world I had to put up with between the Unjust War and the Karma War.

[SpacingOutMan]

You guys are so cute when you argue amongst yourselves. And it was especially adorable when you were all comparing your casualties earlier.

This is what you wanted, Planet Bob. This is the direction you chose. Enjoy.

Butthurt still? Pitiful, because it seems most of your comrades have moved on. NPO had it coming, and it made a major error in judgment. Live with the consequences and move on.

EDIT: Branimir has a great post below mine.

Edited October 14, 2009 by SpacingOutMan

[Branimir]

Whatever the current worlds flaws, I can still safely say that I enjoy it far more then the world I had to put up with between the Unjust War and the Karma War.

That is completely understandable, seeing how in that time your side crumbled and got stomped. Anything really is better then that, as such, I am sure you can somewhat see how Arcades057 feels in certain ways.

Arguing about it, is pointless, depends on the person and his point of view, and I am quite sure more people enjoy the present then the past. Thats cool, nothing wrong with that of course.

[astronaut jones]

That is completely understandable, seeing how in that time your side crumbled and got stomped. Anything really is better then that, as such, I am sure you can somewhat see how Arcades057 feels in certain ways.

Arguing about it, is pointless, depends on the person and his point of view, and I am quite sure more people enjoy the present then the past. Thats cool, nothing wrong with that of course.

Or perhaps he's talking about the openness, the lack of fear and intimidation, the kind that was rampant between those times that made people and entire alliances disappear merely for voicing their displeasure at certain alliances and certain blocs.

It's refreshing to be able to speak ones mind as openly and freely as one chooses, and not have to worry that their opinions will lead to the downfall of their friends and treaty partners.

[Arcades057]

Or perhaps he's talking about the openness, the lack of fear and intimidation, the kind that was rampant between those times that made people and entire alliances disappear merely for voicing their displeasure at certain alliances and certain blocs.

It's refreshing to be able to speak ones mind as openly and freely as one chooses, and not have to worry that their opinions will lead to the downfall of their friends and treaty partners.

Green, you of all people should know what I mean, having aided in the subjugation and tyranny of Pacifica yourself. Allow me to explain.

What does 2+2= ?

This is the foundation of my displeasure. You see, 2+2=4, always, regardless.

But, imagine if you will, 20,000 people claiming that 2+2=5. All of these people clamor together, talking the loudest and the most forcefully, and soon they convince 99% of people that, indeed, 2+2=5.

Does that mean that 2+2=5?

No: It just means that 99% of people are !@#$@#$ idiots.

At the top of our world now are those who believe that 2+2=5.

As I said earlier, enjoy it, Planet Bob: You've earned this.

[astronaut jones]

Green, you of all people should know what I mean, having aided in the subjugation and tyranny of Pacifica yourself. Allow me to explain.

What does 2+2= ?

This is the foundation of my displeasure. You see, 2+2=4, always, regardless.

But, imagine if you will, 20,000 people claiming that 2+2=5. All of these people clamor together, talking the loudest and the most forcefully, and soon they convince 99% of people that, indeed, 2+2=5.

Does that mean that 2+2=5?

No: It just means that 99% of people are !@#$@#$ idiots.

At the top of our world now are those who believe that 2+2=5.

As I said earlier, enjoy it, Planet Bob: You've earned this.

Well of course I did, and I enjoyed it, and I still maintain that I had more fun in the NPO than I had in any other alliance (MA recently took the crown though.. so I guess I don't maintain it anymore, but 2nd is still good). But I don't try to hide who I am, I'm bad at it, and I like to be able to say whatever I want, to whomever I want, in whatever context I want, without having to worry about the consequences beyond myself.

I've had countless alliances threaten me, and also try to threaten the alliances I've been in (mostly MA), only to be told to either suck it up, or if they have a problem, to take it up with me personally. That sort of thing never really would have happened before, and I'd have had a lot of blood on my hands through my behaviour.

It's one thing if it's your own blood...

[Lord Fingolfin]

*Londo smiles slowly

Hello, purple.

If this happens, I very much doubt it will be because C&G alliances canceled them. And I doubt it will happen at all. But I'm still not sure how this discussion became about TOP or Citadel when they were just one of many alliances/groups mentioned by this particular experiment in statistics.

Ah, a response from the great Londo himself. Flattered to be sure. Well then, enjoy your party. Things will play out in due time I'm sure.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

What does 2+2= ?

This is the foundation of my displeasure. You see, 2+2=4, always, regardless.

On that one statement we surely agree, even if I find it truly hilarious to see you of all people making it.

At the top of our world now are those who believe that 2+2=5.

As I said earlier, enjoy it, Planet Bob: You've earned this.

You might want to seek some updates on recent events, your masters are no longer "at the top of our world" and havent been for some time.

[Arcades057]

On that one statement we surely agree, even if I find it truly hilarious to see you of all people making it.

You might want to seek some updates on recent events, your masters are no longer "at the top of our world" and havent been for some time.

Ahhh, the dreaded "no u" argument, best tool of the winning side.

[WildThing]

What'd you expect when your argument was: 2+2=4, everyone that thinks 2+2=5 is stupid. Everyone thinks that.

You came into this thread looking like a fool, you stayed looking like a fool and I rather think you're going to end up leaving looking like a fool. But that's nothing new I guess.

[WarriorConcept]

What'd you expect when your argument was: 2+2=4, everyone that thinks 2+2=5 is stupid. Everyone thinks that.

You came into this thread looking like a fool, you stayed looking like a fool and I rather think you're going to end up leaving looking like a fool. But that's nothing new I guess.

Yup, nothing new.

[Geoffron X]

Whatever the current worlds flaws, I can still safely say that I enjoy it far more then the world I had to put up with between the Unjust War and the Karma War.

From an outsider's perspective, things don't seem to have changed all that much for Polaris. I guess you keep getting more nukes?

[NoFish]

Green, you of all people should know what I mean, having aided in the subjugation and tyranny of Pacifica yourself. Allow me to explain.

What does 2+2= ?

This is the foundation of my displeasure. You see, 2+2=4, always, regardless.

But, imagine if you will, 20,000 people claiming that 2+2=5. All of these people clamor together, talking the loudest and the most forcefully, and soon they convince 99% of people that, indeed, 2+2=5.

Does that mean that 2+2=5?

No: It just means that 99% of people are !@#$@#$ idiots.

At the top of our world now are those who believe that 2+2=5.

As I said earlier, enjoy it, Planet Bob: You've earned this.

You mean like how the now-head of a certain well-known alliance once claimed that you could be nuked twice every day?

[Geoffron X]

You mean like how the now-head of a certain well-known alliance once claimed that you could be nuked twice every day?

Depending on time zones, you can. I'm in EST, so I can be nuked at 12:59 AM and 1:01 AM, two minutes later. Of course, without the actual quote and the context behind the quote, this may not suffice as a counter-argument, but overall I'm not sure what your comment has to do with this thread in the first place.

[Penkala]

I'm sorry I have fought in a large amount of wars due to the fact that my allies have been attacked and my alliance/myself honored the treaty and defended them, and as a result I have a significantly lower NS than a statgobbler such as yourself, or I would gladly take you up on your offer.

Love fighting inexperienced people who think they are awesome

Hey, you. Quit lecturing others on leaving allies out to hang when IAA's done it too.

OH I GET IT NOW. His TOP mandated war chest was so awesome that not only could he buy back up to 2000 infra ( about what 200,000 casualties equates to on average, although probably alot less given your nuke policy in the last war), he could buy an ADDITIONAL 12,000 infra! Silly me, i have trouble understanding some of the finer aspects of game play that our TOP overlords have clearly mastered and patented already.

And you, if you stopped talking so much maybe you could hear the facts. He said he had 5-6k infra and fought Moridin, and he obviously wasn't in TOP then. It's been confirmed by Moridin. So let it go. You were wrong.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Penkala

[Bob]

Hey, you. Quit lecturing others on leaving allies out to hang when IAA's done it too.

I rofl'd. Quite hard.

Penkala, I wasn't in IAA when they /disbanded/ after fighting against NPO for a while during the GATO war, and I don't consider that leaving them out to dry in the first place, the alliance ceased to exist because of the war. Second off, in the alliances I have been in during every war (Except ODN GWII, but that's a whole different argument), we have made the decision to honor treaties. I'm not one to stay in an alliance that avoids honoring their treaties.

[Penkala]

I rofl'd. Quite hard.

Penkala, I wasn't in IAA when they /disbanded/ after fighting against NPO for a while during the GATO war, and I don't consider that leaving them out to dry in the first place, the alliance ceased to exist because of the war. Second off, in the alliances I have been in during every war (Except ODN GWII, but that's a whole different argument), we have made the decision to honor treaties. I'm not one to stay in an alliance that avoids honoring their treaties.

Then you'd better leave IAA, because their past shows they've conveniently looked the other way.

[King Chill I]

Meh, I know it was hot topic 10 pages back but just wanted to mention that there was no way in hell that TOP could have come out looking decent in the eyes of most of the pinheads here during the karma war.

TOP comes in on the side of Karma at the start: Arguments range from TOP backstabbed half its allies and chose to jump in with the stronger side and are a bunch of cowards escaping due punishment.

TOP goes in for the hegemony side: Arguments range from TOP backstabbed half its allies and chose the evil side (and possibly jeopardized a karma victory).

TOP stays out: Arguments range from TOP bailed on all its allies and cuddled their infra and are bunch of cowards escaping due punishment.

TOP comes in late: Arguments range from TOP backstabbed half its allies, chose easy targets and came in when it was going to get less damage and thus are a bunch of infra cuddling cowards escaping due punishment.

(i must admit that given the timing that was probably the second worst decision)

All this with the footnote of Crymson's generally ignored legalistic point that treaties are non-chaining for a reason.

The above formula also applies to any of the so called coalition of cowards. Had any of those alliances chosen to conscientiously not fight because it was simply wrong given that the NPO had started an stupid aggressive war, they would have been called....well cowards...rather than critical thinkers and stand up guys.

In fact, while talking to IRON and MCXA i could hardly blame them for deciding to go in because if they hadnt (and they had every moral and legal reason not to) they would have been branded for ever.

Then the question becomes well should they have been allied to the NPO in the first place in which case the answer is maybe, maybe not but given that even alliances like RIA had an MDP with NPO throughout the war the point becomes moot since we all at one point or another had our hand in the dirty NPO cookie jar (except for MK and C&G but thats moot since they were pretty much automatically excluded).

EDIT: I guess my point was that you can !@#$%* and whine as much as you want about it but there is never going to be any winner to this argument since no matter what TOP had done they would have still been crucified for a sin. But hey thats the nature of this world of ours.

Edited October 14, 2009 by King Chill I

[Penguin]

From an outsider's perspective, things don't seem to have changed all that much for Polaris. I guess you keep getting more nukes?

Fallen was remarking that ruling a nation is more enjoyable for him today than it was at previous points in history since the Unjust War. What good is an outsider's perspective as a measure of personal enjoyment? If you are serious about not understanding why he might find the present world more enjoyable than the past, I would be happy to illuminate it to you in private as it is outside the scope of the present discussion.

[WildThing]

snip

People also pointed out that this is not some new trend explored by TOP only during the Karma War, but yeah, pretty much what you said. TOP really managed to put themselves in a !@#$ position.

Edited October 14, 2009 by WildThing

[Ellis]

In fact, while talking to IRON and MCXA i could hardly blame them for deciding to go in because if they hadnt (and they had every moral and legal reason not to) they would have been branded for ever.

Legal?

Moral reason, maybe, that really depends on your point of view, but I think they were obligated to fight by treaty.

[Bob Janova]

For almost every treaty you held, there was a clause that mandated the sharing of information relating to aggressive war, a non chaining clause and/or an optional aggression clause. Since you started the war, MDPs were not immediately activated, and non-chaining MDPs (or those with no chaining clause interpreted in that way) not at all, and since you didn't inform your allies of your planned suicide, any treaty with an information clause you broke and therefore the other side was not obliged to bail you out.

A combination of those things is why MHA, TOP, Sparta, NpO, RIA, Fark and possibly others didn't fight on your side despite one or more MDP treaties.

The fact that so many Continuum alliances did fight with you is testament to their loyalty to the old system – I know that if I'd still been in Continuum, I'd have told you to get lost if you asked for support after breaking the 72h notice clause for at least the third time.

[Chalaskan]

We (TOP) rolled with our closest friends in Citadel during Kharma. We were already moving that direction for quite some time before NPO broke our trust (once again) and attacked while we spent a ton of time and effort mediating a peaceful resolution for all allies involved.

Spin the details as you like.

This is in an IC forum now...Please continue your discussion, especially those gov't officials wanting to roll us.

EDITED for clarity.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Chalaskan

[WorkingClassRuler]

Wasn't it just? Of course no alliance has ever had all of their treaties declared null and void by surrender terms and then suddenly this practice comes along solely for the benefit of MHA. What incredible coincidence.

As for wiggling to come out on top, how about "please don't cancel your treaty with us, there's a war coming and since we'll probably end up on different sides can we just treat it as an NAP so you won't end up potentially attacking us? You know, just for old times sake and all that". Sound familiar?

LMAO it's hilarious that she would even comment given Zenith's pathetically spineless attempts to back out of their obligations to MHA and TAB prior to the war. They had no intention of ever honoring their treaties well before the war started and now DK spends her time criticizing those they tried to cowardly dump in some bizarre attempt to cover what she tried to do. I don't know whether to laugh or to pity.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Working_Class_Ruler

[HellAngel]

You know what, i wouldnt mind getting a beatdown. Peace is boring anyway. Plus the annoying stats huggers talk would finally go away.