Apologies and a good bye

[RandomInterrupt]

I suspect the reason was because, since he came from a Direct Democracy, he was getting some heat from his former friends and he just couldn't take it anymore.

But I might be wrong. Anyway, he did a second attempt at attacking the Direct Democracy in the meanwhile.

I guess that makes sense... as much as any of this makes sense that is.

[Fireandthepassion]

I said in that thread that Direct Democracies are an atrocity and don't work on Bob and real life. The process just takes too long for the speed and volatility of politics. No offense to the direct democracies out there on Bob, but the system just fails in execution because sometimes the majority isn't always right while the response time can be detrimental to the alliance (insert a TOP speed meme here).

[Lusitan]

I said in that thread that Direct Democracies are an atrocity and don't work on Bob and real life. The process just takes too long for the speed and volatility of politics. No offense to the direct democracies out there on Bob, but the system just fails in execution because sometimes the majority isn't always right while the response time can be detrimental to the alliance (insert a TOP speed meme here).

Well this isn't exactly a re-edition of that thread.. but then again I find it funny you thinking the majority isn't always right and therefore the power should be handed to a minority - minorities don't make mistakes, right?

[Galen Arsenius]

I tried recruiting former members of Vox Populi, while not loyal to direct democracy, they did have a hatred of the NPO, but none would join, they pretty much all told me I was crazy, which now looking back, yeah I am. After that did not work, I left the DOC.

And so I joined the NpO to gather info and learn to start a corruption from inside and conduct those operations from within.

Which is it, Polar or Pacifica. Either way, the plan was flawed. While I do find it slightly commendable for someone to actually put a plan into motion, my admiration for such action is far outweighed by the stupidity of it all.

Good luck though.

[Fireandthepassion]

I suspect the reason was because, since he came from a Direct Democracy, he was getting some heat from his former friends and he just couldn't take it anymore.

But I might be wrong. Anyway, he did a second attempt at attacking the Direct Democracy in the meanwhile.

The thread was no where near a non-Polar member could see. Unless he had people to corroborate with him.

Also as Random said the piece argued that direct democracies don't work. Which again I entirely agree with. Democracies do work in an indirect fashion. I mean look at Fark I would entirely say for an indirect democracy Fark works really well.

What's boggling a lot of us members of Polar is how was this suppose to incite a revolution with in the alliance? [OOC] Was it to spur the US Polaris member's patriotic gland into IC territory to remove Grub from his seat of power in a game?[/ooc] Having goals isn't a bad thing what so ever, but I'm just failing to understand how this plan was going to work here.

Which is it, Polar or Pacifica. Either way, the plan was flawed. While I do find it slightly commendable for someone to actually put a plan into motion, my admiration for such action is far outweighed by the stupidity of it all.

Good luck though.

He was a member of Polaris that was trying to start his career in Polaris by going through the Ministry of Peace.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Fireandthepassion

[Fireandthepassion]

Well this isn't exactly a re-edition of that thread.. but then again I find it funny you thinking the majority isn't always right and therefore the power should be handed to a minority - minorities don't make mistakes, right?

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. In direct democracies the only real value is the opinion of the majority. No one really sits in a seat above anyone else to decide if the majority is ever wrong so in practice the majority of a direct democracy is always right. You must remember that in a direct democracy it's the body that runs the alliance there are no elected officials. Which again leads me to point out that the majority isn't always right hell you could have a 2% lead in an opinion poll, but that still doesn't make the majority right because there will be 49% to say otherwise. This is definitely where direct democracies start to fail because you start creating a rift in members because there is no one to determine which side is truly right or wrong. Yes a collective whole the response should be the majority but again that doesn't mean the decision is always right because there is always a percentage of the body that will say otherwise unless for some reason no one picks the second option which creates a definite decision.

Also if you noted I was talking to the OP rather than commentators in this thread. The OP was a member of Polaris when he made the thread. I commented the thread. I talked about something that maybe the OP read.

[Lusitan]

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. In direct democracies the only real value is the opinion of the majority. No one really sits in a seat above anyone else to decide if the majority is ever wrong so in practice the majority of a direct democracy is always right. You must remember that in a direct democracy it's the body that runs the alliance there are no elected officials. Which again leads me to point out that the majority isn't always right hell you could have a 2% lead in an opinion poll, but that still doesn't make the majority right because there will be 49% to say otherwise. This is definitely where direct democracies start to fail because you start creating a rift in members because there is no one to determine which side is truly right or wrong. Yes a collective whole the response should be the majority but again that doesn't mean the decision is always right because there is always a percentage of the body that will say otherwise unless for some reason no one picks the second option which creates a definite decision.

Also if you noted I was talking to the OP rather than commentators in this thread. The OP was a member of Polaris when he made the thread. I commented the thread. I talked about something that maybe the OP read.

You do realize that people joining a democracy either are or have to be aware that the alliance choices are based in the opinion of the majority, don't you? For that reason only, your thinking that it should cause rifts makes no sense at all because people who are in a democratic alliance are fully aware that it is the opinion of the majority that counts. Otherwise they wouldn't be in a democratic alliance or shouldn't at least..sigh. If it, by any chance, causes rifts, then it is not the system that fails, it's the people.

And again, a majority is not right more often than a minority. Both are groups of humans - and humans don't make more mistakes because they are a minority or a majority. Of course, you might be confusing being right with winning a voting that provides the right to decide the future of the collective, but that's not my problem

[Kim Jaym Il]

The thread was no where near a non-Polar member could see. Unless he had people to corroborate with him.

For some reason, he also posted the thread on the OWF.

[lordliam]

I have come to several realizations about myself and this game. Firstly, loyalty is key, second, I suck at this game.

You will be forever immortalized my friend.

[White Chocolate]

I just don't know what to say. I thought that the rest of the world would be far more harsh, even calling for ZI and the likes.

I was expecting to see that as well. Nice to be wrong. There is hope for Planet Bob after all

[x8BitL0gic]

Damn. There goes my title for "worst attempted coup of Polar".

There's always next year, Doitzel.

Kamino. Seeya later? o_O

[shahman]

I just don't know what to say. I thought that the rest of the world would be far more harsh, even calling for ZI and the likes.

Only if you had succeeded to some extent

[FAdmApoc]

Ive seen fail before but this is on a new level...

[Un4Gvn1]

You came up with a plan you wanted to accomplish and then tried to put it into action. You at least tried to take action, which is more than most can say, and for that I salute you.

^^^^^^^ This, exactly.

Hang in there, chill for a while (collect taxes), and try something else -- or try again -- there's no reason to leave.

[Barron von Hammer]

I suspect the reason was because, since he came from a Direct Democracy, he was getting some heat from his former friends and he just couldn't take it anymore.

But I might be wrong. Anyway, he did a second attempt at attacking the Direct Democracy in the meanwhile.

You are correct Lusitan.

I was surprised (to say the least) when I read the post. I figured someone was goading him into it; the assumption that he was trying to affect a global ideological shift involving thousands of nations never crossed my mind. It has been awhile since I have seen such a symbiosis of ambition and "direct" stupidity (that may be a bit harsh, lets substitute overwhelming ignorance for stupidity).

Kamino: Tam is right, you put us (DOC) in a bad light, however we have no anger toward you and if Polaris isnt going to act (other than laugh) then I would not re-roll if I were you. Learn from your mistakes and move on.

[CRexx]

The entire foundation of your plan has no footing. If someone craves direct democracy they will do one of the following:

1. Resign from Polar and go join an alliance with their desired level of democracy.

2. Work with friends to form their own alliance (based on a desired level of democracy) and launch said alliance.

Before you attempt to blindly apply real world concepts to CN you would be better served by studying the in-game enviroment and how it differs from the real world enviroment, namely the ease at which a nation can move between "states" in-game. You don't have the oppressed surfs of Russia in game, as people can normally move between alliances with ease. Rather people are in autocracies because they're a casual player and like the structured enviroment or else they enjoy roleplaying in such an enviroment.

Clearly you're active and have goals in the game, but you need to learn more about the in-game political enviroment before coming up with your next grand plan.

[AlmightyGrub]

You are correct Lusitan.

I was surprised (to say the least) when I read the post. I figured someone was goading him into it; the assumption that he was trying to affect a global ideological shift involving thousands of nations never crossed my mind. It has been awhile since I have seen such a symbiosis of ambition and "direct" stupidity (that may be a bit harsh, lets substitute overwhelming ignorance for stupidity).

Kamino: Tam is right, you put us (DOC) in a bad light, however we have no anger toward you and if Polaris isnt going to act (other than laugh) then I would not re-roll if I were you. Learn from your mistakes and move on.

I didn't laugh at all, I just shook my head. Polaris is not opposed to people expressing opinions within our forums, and the notion that a new member could tear the social and political fabric of our alliance apart with one thread discussing political models is absurd. I am sure within our walls we harbour almost the full spectrum of political ideologies, and I am not sure people even comprehend how we work in that regard to our ''political'' structure. All is not as it seems.

I would strongly suggest that Kamino gain some actual appreciation of alliance history and some actual experience talking to the big kids at school before attempting to overthrow the Emperor of the NpO with a extremely tame political argument.

Once again someone got their ability and their ambitions confused.

No harm, no foul. Better not try to mess around too much more though

[kamino]

Well, the whole thing was not going to be just one post, lol. There was actually supposed to be a long series of papers with the express intent on bringing people to question there beliefs or ideals with a constant reinforcement that the emperor is the will of the alliance as opposed to the alliance being the will of the emperor, and should the emperor become disruptive of the ideals and desires of the people he can be removed and replaced with a new emperor that better reflects the will of the people. Now mind you, this paper does not need be true, because people will believe what they want, and there are very few people that will actually go research the paper themselves. So by taking a subject that would be supported i.e. direct democracies are bad and dictatorships are good, I would be able to slip in a little extra without much notice or opposition.

After this ideal is constantly brought to the light of the people, the next step would be to demonize the Emperor and show how horrible he is. This can be done by many ways, whether it’s a new treaty with some alliance (which you can always find dirt on) past mistakes and much more.

While at the same time direct democratic alliances would form a Direct-Democratic military and economic BLOC.

The ultimate intent was to have other like minded individuals (hence my attempted recruitment of the former members of Vox Populi) to take up posts in other alliances, and once they had all reached acceptable levels of governance, to begin forming/altering treaties to create two equal, but opposing factions, and then just stand back and light the match. This would bring down the dictatorships by a massive war, and allow those direct democratic alliances to supersede them and take there place as the top alliances on Bob.

Now mind you, ultimately, this plan would take years to implement.

The problem came when I posted on the OWF. The intent here was to show the alliance of how "dedicated" I was to my paper/ideal. But there was a problem I failed to see, that former and current members of my alliance, and there allies who knew me, would begin shooting my paper to heck and I would be proven to be a liar. The insults that followed in PM's to me where over whelming and it was that pressure that caused me to abandon my plan and come clean. Posting in the OWF was just an all round bad move, had it not been for that I would still be posting more "papers" on the alliance website, continuing to get little pats on the back, much like I had received from the first one (or at least I interpreted it to be taken rather well in the alliance forums for bashing direct democracies)

So yes, if I was ignorant enough to think that I could change the entire structure of an alliance with just one post, it could be said that I am indeed an idiot with false ideals of grandeur. However it was a simple mistake that ultimately caused this plan to fail. This plan can still work, but not by me as I would be suspected in the future. The threat will always come from new or quite players who may have strong ties to the rich and powerful who have a desire to see others fail.

For those of you who think you are safe from this kind of attack, you had better take a long hard look at yourselves because you are just as susceptible to this as any one else, as the rulers of nations are in fact human and are susceptible to persuasion of ideas. Immediate members may not be affected by this plan, but future generations who join will think that this is standard ideology of the alliance and they will be the other faction within the alliance.

And that's all I have to say on this thread. You all can sit here and debate, insult and state your opinions (which every one has, because bob seems to be filled with a lot of self proclaimed genius' and physiologists’) as much as you like, I'm done. I'm done with espionage, clandestine operations, and the OWF. I’m off to just do my best and help out however I can. Kamino, out.

Edited October 12, 2009 by kamino

[Haflinger]

Kamino, the basic flaw in the plan is that people don't change their beliefs based on papers. If you think you have a better political model, ultimately you need to prove it by starting an alliance based on it. If you are successful with your model, people will join your alliance, and then other alliances will start to emulate your approach.

[Voytek]

The problem came when I posted on the OWF.

Yes. This is where your plan began to fall apart.

[Tamurin]

I suggest that in the future you stay true to yourself, your principles and your believes instead of trying to make stealthy tactical moves. In the end, this is what will make you believable and respectable - your words, your actions, your loyalty over several years. And not some papers.

[WolfsPride]

Kamino,

I'm not going to lie and I'll tell you flat on out.

As soon as I read your *Paper*, I copied the Link and sent it straight to Barron Von Hammer and told him he needed to let Tam know what was going on.

Yes, I called you out and would do it again in defense of DOC.

That alliance NEVER did you any wrong but did you favors instead.

Nice way to stab someone in the back though

Edited October 12, 2009 by WolfsPride

[Heracles the Great]

You came up with a plan you wanted to accomplish and then tried to put it into action. You at least tried to take action, which is more than most can say, and for that I salute you.

For once, I agree with RV...

Good luck in real life, may you find success

[HeinousOne]

Kamino, you have a very active imagination. That is perfectly alright of course but this plan of yours? The liklihood of it's success is obvious due to the response of those you would have hatched it upon.

Take it as a lesson learned. If this is what you had to do to maintain interest here then it is understandable why you are leaving.

[RandomInterrupt]

*snip*

Yeah, sorry but your plan doesn't get any less retarded even with added detail. Your first mistake was picking Polar, for starters. If you want to change the entire structure, culture, and core of an alliance it's best to pick one that is new, weak, or susceptible to change. Polar is none of these things. If losing two major wars, internal change ups and turmoil, the harshest surrender terms to date, and countless crisis's and dramas isn't enough to take us down, nothing is. Over the past few years we've had many folks come to us with similar goals. They decide to come to Polar and push some agenda or twist us to their purposes. Folks with better plans and than yours. They failed too.

So next time don't pick a well established and internally stable meritocracy. Ironically your best chance would be one of your own democratic alliances. We've seen plans like this work in the past in democracies. So in short, your plan is dumb and hopefully you are being honest when you say you will abandon it.