Vanguard Edict

[Joe Stupid]

Vanguard is the coolest alliance out there, period. I have nothing but love and respect for them.

Congrats Vanguard.

o/

[franciscus]

I think you seem to forget that about a year ago ODN approached you with a plan for sharing our seat and you laughed at it and shot it down.

Stay classy, Proximus, it's the single best thing a government member can do in public. You were not there and I was just a freshman in the ODN government when this was taking place. From my foggy memories, ODN discussed the problem internally and never went out to share the idea. Don't blame others for your (our, back in the day) impotence. Whether you like it or not, IRON took the initiative and shared the freakin' seat. Not I, you or anyone else. We just sat on our behinds and whined.

/end rant

Vanguard, this is a sad day for OUT. Hope that it will shake the inertia of the other signatories and inspire them to actually do something to strengthen the OUT. Even if that means going back to 2007 stage and start fresh, with old ideals and new ideas.

[Chaoshawk]

I can see why Vanguard decided to depart from OUT, it does seem to lack a sense of camaraderie and unity these days.

[shahenshah]

I can see why Vanguard decided to depart from OUT, it does seem to lack a sense of camaraderie and unity these days.

Uhm..OUT has never been politically united.

[Johnathan Flaherty]

Best of luck to both Vanguard and OUT

[QuiteTheUserName]

OUT is simply a barely-functioning economic tool which, while it has the potential, never amounted to a whole lot. That's fine, you can't expect everything to run perfectly in a sphere as large as orange, no?

Let me preface this next section by saying that I'm a huge proponent for the spirit of Orange Unity. Although my alliance may not see eye-to-eye or have the same ties as other orange alliances, I respect them greatly as sphere mates.

But OUT is also a military tool when convenient, and generally not utilized in a good way. Any sort of low-level treaty between acquaintances, at best, should not in any way whatsoever limit an alliance's obligation to stronger-tied allies. Unity would not put a signatory alliance in a position to decide whether or not they should protect their actual friends or adhere to "sphere unity rules." Therein, the treaty and sphere itself is flawed.

So basically it's a shambled economic center with the ability to manipulate an alliance's military actions under the guise of preserving sphere unity?

Yeah, I don't mind leaving.

[PrideAssassin]

OUT is simply a barely-functioning economic tool which, while it has the potential, never amounted to a whole lot. That's fine, you can't expect everything to run perfectly in a sphere as large as orange, no?

Let me preface this next section by saying that I'm a huge proponent for the spirit of Orange Unity. Although my alliance may not see eye-to-eye or have the same ties as other orange alliances, I respect them greatly as sphere mates.

But OUT is also a military tool when convenient, and generally not utilized in a good way. Any sort of low-level treaty between acquaintances, at best, should not in any way whatsoever limit an alliance's obligation to stronger-tied allies. Unity would not put a signatory alliance in a position to decide whether or not they should protect their actual friends or adhere to "sphere unity rules." Therein, the treaty and sphere itself is flawed.

So basically it's a shambled economic center with the ability to manipulate an alliance's military actions under the guise of preserving sphere unity?

Yeah, I don't mind leaving.

Should have dropped before the war, rather than posture here and now.

You missed your chance, is that what you're sayin'?

Better late than never I suppose. Why you would want inner-sphere conflict is beyond me.

[Delta1212]

Should have dropped before the war, rather than posture here and now.

You missed your chance, is that what you're sayin'?

Better late than never I suppose. Why you would want inner-sphere conflict is beyond me.

So you're saying IRON is planning on attacking Vanguard because of this? That seems stupid to me, but whatever floats your boat.

[Rafael Nadal]

Should have dropped before the war, rather than posture here and now.

You missed your chance, is that what you're sayin'?

Better late than never I suppose. Why you would want inner-sphere conflict is beyond me.

Where have we stated our desire for conflict within the sphere?

[Bodvar Jarl]

It would seem, to me, that Vanguard holds different expectations to OUT than the rest of the signatories, it is little different now from the organization it joined some time ago (and yours truly did tell them that it would be like this, too). So I suppose that leads to the conclusion that Vanguard have changed, as OUT and orange have not (except growing in numbers).

At any rate, good luck.

[ccjmk]

in the smallest amount someone can hear on politics, i was disappointed that OUT could not get us closer together.. as QTUN said, it was an economic tool mainly, as it couldn't simply order you to trust and fight for your sphere mates than from your friends. It failed in the sense that it was not efficient enough to make strong links and make "Sphere Mates" and "Friends" became close to sinonims

Edited September 18, 2009 by ccjmk

[delgursh]

So you're saying IRON is planning on attacking Vanguard because of this? That seems stupid to me, but whatever floats your boat.

lol I'm 100% positive that isn't what PA was going after with that comment. Let me make this absolutely clear for those people on the OWF who are never clear on things...IRON is NOT looking to attack anyone on any color, especially oranges. You can take that to the bank. That one is getting nipped in the butt before the OWF and its lame, neverending rumor mill starts spreading that.

We've been working hard to revive OUT and help out as many oranges as we can. We're pretty much doing and feel the exact opposite of what you just said there. We were working very hard recently to engage OUT and promote orange growth.

Edited September 18, 2009 by delgursh

[PrideAssassin]

So you're saying IRON is planning on attacking Vanguard because of this? That seems stupid to me, but whatever floats your boat.

No. It's against our Charter anyway. Not that that's what I was saying at all. The references provided indicate that their NAP was preventing them from attacking alongside their allies. How I took it, anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Delta1212]

lol I'm 100% positive that isn't what PA was going after with that comment.

I think you missed my subtle implication that his post was full of caustic remarks and innuendo that had absolutely nothing to do with anything the person he quoted said and that this made him appear foolish.

I'll try to be more blunt in the future.

[delgursh]

I think you missed my subtle implication that his post was full of caustic remarks and innuendo that had absolutely nothing to do with anything the person he quoted said and that this made him appear foolish.

I'll try to be more blunt in the future.

Well regardless, my comment needed to be said before the OWF takes a post and creates a rumor from that post and runs with it.

Anywho...good luck Vanguard wherever you go from here.

On a OOC note, I always could never get over: why is there so much name calling and such a lack of respect on the OWF. I can't stand the OWF lol

Edited September 18, 2009 by delgursh

[bill n ted]

I can still see why Vanguard would feel as if they aren't part of that community anymore. All this talk of the Orange Senate seems entirely off-base. I don't know, but it seems like Vanguard didn't care so much about that and cared more about feeling as if they belonged. And someone up there mentioned how TOP and IRON are discussing canceling the OST and/or dissolving it? ... ?

Curious. I caught a glimpse of this earlier:

This isn't what we want from a unity bloc and no longer feel welcomed in it so we chose to leave.

Did Vanguard ever feel welcome? To me they were and still are some strange missing link in CN alliances, which as far as I could see was a bit of a loner.

Given how a ODN former insert (list here*) whatever appreciates Vanguards position makes me wonder if ODN feels welcome in the "community". Would it be a bad thing if OST were to be canceled as you suggest? Last I saw ODN failed to rotate its seat, per OST or Senate Sharing Agreement or whatever its specific name is. Yet another treaty ODN is failing to keep?

*SHOCK LE GASP!!! NOT MY ODN!*

[bill n ted]

Edit sorry - victim of bad internet and flood control

Edited September 18, 2009 by bill n ted

[Rafael Nadal]

No. It's against our Charter anyway. Not that that's what I was saying at all. The references provided indicate that their NAP was preventing them from attacking alongside their allies. How I took it, anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's different than hankering for an intra-sphere conflict.

Yes, if an OUT member attacks an ally of mine, they can expect to be retaliated against. Yes, if one of my allies makes a solid case for activating an aggression clause against an OUT member, they can expect to be hit by my alliance. Being Orange does not entitle you to a papal dispensation for your actions. Alliances on Orange are just as responsible for their policies and actions as any other alliance on any other sphere in CN.

[Soccerbum]

Curious. I caught a glimpse of this earlier:

Did Vanguard ever feel welcome? To me they were and still are some strange missing link in CN alliances, which as far as I could see was a bit of a loner.

Given how a ODN former insert (list here*) whatever appreciates Vanguards position makes me wonder if ODN feels welcome in the "community". Would it be a bad thing if OST were to be canceled as you suggest? Last I saw ODN failed to rotate its seat, per OST or Senate Sharing Agreement or whatever its specific name is. Yet another treaty ODN is failing to keep?

*SHOCK LE GASP!!! NOT MY ODN!*

Vanguard has never been a loner. ODN has always had their back. It was the way in which certain members of other alliances, such as yourself, tended to treat Vanguard that probably made them feel left out, though. ODN feels welcome in the community, at least from a General Assembly Member perspective. I can say that it is slightly disturbing that a treaty member can chastise another treaty member when they are in discussion about canceling an agreement without discussing with the third member. Tsk tsk. As a former IRON Councilor* is making these comments, though, I am not surprised.

*SHOCK LE GASP!!!!11!*

<3 you Vanguard.

[bill n ted]

Vanguard has never been a loner. ODN has always had their back. It was the way in which certain members of other alliances, such as yourself, tended to treat Vanguard that probably made them feel left out, though. ODN feels welcome in the community, at least from a General Assembly Member perspective. I can say that it is slightly disturbing that a treaty member can chastise another treaty member when they are in discussion about canceling an agreement without discussing with the third member. Tsk tsk. As a former IRON Councilor* is making these comments, though, I am not surprised.

*SHOCK LE GASP!!!!11!*

<3 you Vanguard.

Hope Vanguard have a stab vest on; no doubt theyll get a blade in the back

Anyways; congrats again to Vanguard again

Edited September 18, 2009 by bill n ted

[zimmerwald1915]

Fascinating how this has somehow morphed into a vast ODN conspiracy to divide the sphere. It started out as Vanguard pursuing a course they felt was right for them.

Carry on.

[Proximus]

Mm no sense continuing that argument.

Insert mindless hailing instead.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Proximus

[Charles the Great]

That's different than hankering for an intra-sphere conflict.

Yes, if an OUT member attacks an ally of mine, they can expect to be retaliated against. Yes, if one of my allies makes a solid case for activating an aggression clause against an OUT member, they can expect to be hit by my alliance. Being Orange does not entitle you to a papal dispensation for your actions. Alliances on Orange are just as responsible for their policies and actions as any other alliance on any other sphere in CN.

I am pretty sure thats what got GLoF stomped........ ........ but I can honestly say we would do it again if our friends really needed us to do it. hopefully any future conflicts will allow the freedom of choice not to have Orange vs Orange violence.

thank you,

CtG

[Rafael Nadal]

I am pretty sure thats what got GLoF stomped........ ........ but I can honestly say we would do it again if our friends really needed us to do it. hopefully any future conflicts will allow the freedom of choice not to have Orange vs Orange violence.

thank you,

CtG

And I took issue with OUT's response then.

[shahenshah]

There have been no real economic directives or plans from OUT.

Uhm, you guys didn't even show up on the last vote :/

Your other points tho, regarding possible interference with other treaties does makes some sense.

Edited September 18, 2009 by shahenshah