Vanguard Edict

[bill n ted]

Haha, what's with the sock in your mouth?

Who said the times aren't changing...

I heard ODN is already paranoid enough without me taunting them further and that this is Vanguards thread and its not for me to hijack it. So congrats and goodluck to Vanguard once more.

BOOOO!

10 ODNer's just hit DEFCON 1

[Feanor Noldorin]

Not a surprising move. Good luck.

[kriekfreak]

I think your over estimating what it means to us. TOP didn't share it's seat because we were too lazy to go about getting it done. We talked about it before ODN started to do it, and the converstation sorta died, even though it probably had majority.

I don't think we would get our knickers in a bunch if you went for a seat without our permission, or if we lost it. To us all it would do is be used as a game to promote activity.

I think you are under estimating some of your fellow member's feelings about the senate. Perhaps you guys did talk about rotation it with more alliances internally (that is something I can't check), the point is that I've seen several of TOP's government in different set-ups making a fuss about it. To give you a small example, several times FOK was contacted to remind them to vote for TOP's senator as the TOP-FOK treaty states. If you aren't bothered with the senate seat, why would you do such thing?

People are making an issue out of this simply because of PR. Senate seats are not worth the trouble of all this.

That is just a ridicilous statement. In what way can people gain positive PR by making an issue out of this? If TOP doesn't think this is worth the trouble then they should make it an open senate race or a rotation style senate race. Instead of wanting to make this a FOK/TOP/ODN/IRON rotation only. You can try to rub it of as lies to save yourself some bad PR, but we both know it is true.

I can go on and on about this but I respect my friends in TOP that wish for me to refrain from posting. So I will depart from this thread.

[flak attack]

So Vanguard left OUT because they thought it inhibited their ability to protect their allies. Makes sense to me. Seems similar to when STA left SNOW.

[DogeWilliam]

Interesting. Good luck with whatever this move means for you.

Edited September 18, 2009 by DogeWilliam

[Khyber]

I think you are under estimating some of your fellow member's feelings about the senate. Perhaps you guys did talk about rotation it with more alliances internally (that is something I can't check), the point is that I've seen several of TOP's government in different set-ups making a fuss about it.

That is funny, cause I was GM when this whole thing with FOK getting the seat was starting up. Trust me when I say I don't give a rats behind about the senate seat, nor does a good chunk of TOP. The OST favors ODN and us more then IRON, and indeed hampers them.

I'm also not for rotating the seat between 8 alliances. I think it is too much trouble. I would rather open competition and leave it at that. You want the seat, earn it with size, or cut whatever deals you want.

To give you a small example, several times FOK was contacted to remind them to vote for TOP's senator as the TOP-FOK treaty states. If you aren't bothered with the senate seat, why would you do such thing?

Yep, we also have people that do a lot of work for OUT, but that doesn't mean a lot of people think it's very important in TOP. We have people that take care of ghosts, but I myself and others don't care. Your logic is not sound kriek, not on this point. We have people in charge of a lot of things, and they do the best job they can on everything, that doesn't mean it is made any more valuable because they do their job well, it just means they are doing a good job. And with so many active members you need to find tasks for a good chunk of them, so why not delegate a team of 2 guys to send out pms to vote, and talk to FOK to vote for us when we have low votes. If I accepted that responsibility I would do the same thing, not out of a love for senate seats, but out or a duty to do my best in whatever task I take up.

When we heard that FOK didn't like that part of the treat and wanted part of the senate seat, not a single TOP member objected to sharing. When IRON said they wanted to be in on the rotation, we said sure, why not. But we did object to the addition of 4 or 5 other alliances that ODN brought up, which was nuts in my opinion.

Are there people in TOP that care about the seat? Yes. But I would hardly classify them a majority, not with the discussions we've had about them. Most of the time people post "who cares about the senate seat?".

That is just a ridicilous statement. In what way can people gain positive PR by making an issue out of this? If TOP doesn't think this is worth the trouble then they should make it an open senate race or a rotation style senate race. Instead of wanting to make this a FOK/TOP/ODN/IRON rotation only. You can try to rub it of as lies to save yourself some bad PR, but we both know it is true.

I can go on and on about this but I respect my friends in TOP that wish for me to refrain from posting. So I will depart from this thread.

Positive PR maybe not, but negative PR for alliances you targeted.

As for the cancelation, I honestly think it will be soon. Feel free to speak with your own leader and others in FOK of what my opinion on the OST is. Feel free to ask IRON when I asked them about canceling the OST. Here is what I posted in our QnA on August 18th:

I´m against the idea of the OST. I think currently it only protects ODN and us, IRON clearly holding the most power in the senate.

If FOK ever chose to challenge it I would not support going to war with them over the issue, nor would I support going to war over a senate seat being taken by anyone else. That makes me question being in a treaty that supports war over senate seats.

With that in mind how would IRON react if TOP wished to dissolve OST? Would you be in favor of it? What is your current opinion of OST?

Also if done I would want OUT to be ammended to include a clause against the use of sanctioning upon OUT members. Would this make it more acceptable to you?

We also are still discussing it, three topics later, but to me I think the majority is in favor of canceling, it we just work at TOP speed. We will see when the vote comes up, but I know as a Heptagon member I will vote to disolve it, so that is 1 out of the 7 votes

I honestly think you have the wrong impression of us, and I'm not sure where you got it from. I think your way off on this subject.

Edit: BTW I made a mistake when I wrote the question in the IRON embassy. The IRON ambassador corrected me on it. The treaty does not mean an act of hostility if someone outside of the treaty runs for a position. And indeed all it does is limit the three signators to one seat each. Here is the documents articals:

Article I. Senate Agreement - Each signatory alliance agrees to pursue one senate seat in any given election, and recognizes the right of the other signatories to their respective seats.

Article II. Sanctions Agreement - No signatory alliance may sanction any member nation of any other signatory without explicit permission from the signatory of which the nation in question is a member.

Article III. Violations - If any signatory alliance violates this treaty, it shall be deemed an act of hostility against all other signatory alliances, and the violating signatory will be expelled from this treaty.

As only the signatory alliances may violate them, only they can commit an act of aggression. So there is no treaty forbidding anyone to any seat. I just don't think the treaty has any uses.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Khyber

[A Soviet Attack]

Very good choice, Vanguard.

[Scorbolt]

Yes, it is an ODP, yet I can not recall a time where anyone has actually activated the ODP clause except in defense of whichever alliance was attacked by GLOF. But yes, that is correct.

It was also used against PAIN in a very similar situation to GLOF.

[Heft]

As an original signatory of OUT and an original drafter of the OST, I get the impression some people don't quite "get" it. Orange is one of the most powerful, largest, and successful and politically vibrant and diverse colors, and has been for a long time. Much of that is due to OUT and OST. Deriding as just being a NAP or just being some tool or shield completely misses the point. Throwing a tantrum because the Senate isn't entirely open to you is absurd.

Orange facts: IRON started voluntarily rotating its seat over a year ago, and ODN shortly after - once they decided it was safe to do so. The Orange Senate Treaty was originally a concession on IRON's part towards the two other then-major Orange alliances and basically just a commitment on IRON's part to only hold one Senate seat, despite being capable of holding two. IRON was late to the original negotiations over OUT and had very little say in the original treaty for a number of reasons, but has still stood by it and supported it ever since. The Orange Senate has never been abused since OST was signed, and since OUT and OST were originally signed Orange has grown phenomenally.

The ODN stands absolutely behind Vanguard's decision, and wish our allies well in their endeavors.

When will ODN be leaving OUT? Does ODN still support limiting OST to its current signatories?

[Franklin]

This is a sad day for orange unity, a very sad day indeed. I am at a loss for words really. I am not pleased by this turn of events at all friends...

[Heft]

This is a sad day for orange unity, a very sad day indeed. I am at a loss for words really. I am not pleased by this turn of events at all friends...

Glad to see some in ODN still have some sense.

[Rafael Nadal]

OST is completely separate from OUT, and had absolutely nothing to do with why we left OUT. Not once did the word Senate ever get written when I discussed with my fellow government the prospects of leaving OUT. You all can argue about the Senate and whatnot, but don't somehow confuse the Senate having anything to do with why we've withdrawn from OUT.

[Stumpy Jung Il]

As an original signatory of OUT and an original drafter of the OST, I get the impression some people don't quite "get" it. Orange is one of the most powerful, largest, and successful and politically vibrant and diverse colors, and has been for a long time. Much of that is due to OUT and OST. Deriding as just being a NAP or just being some tool or shield completely misses the point. Throwing a tantrum because the Senate isn't entirely open to you is absurd.

Cool story bro. While this may or may not have been the original idea of the treaty the Karma war proved that this is how many view it as. It was once a powerful source of unity, now many view it as a piece of strategy that can be held. Like I said earlier, OUT has lost its spark and no longer feels like a community as much as something that can be used, not for mutual benefit, but for personal benefits alone. This isn't what we want from a unity bloc and no longer feel welcomed in it so we chose to leave. I don't get how anyone could disapprove of this decision because its basically exactly what any alliance should do in our position.

[Heft]

Cool story bro. While this may or may not have been the original idea of the treaty the Karma war proved that this is how many view it as. It was once a powerful source of unity, now many view it as a piece of strategy that can be held. Like I said earlier, OUT has lost its spark and no longer feels like a community as much as something that can be used, not for mutual benefit, but for personal benefits alone. This isn't what we want from a unity bloc and no longer feel welcomed in it so we chose to leave. I don't get how anyone could disapprove of this decision because its basically exactly what any alliance should do in our position.

It's always been mutually beneficial. The only reason it's survived so long, despite all the political divisions within it, despite the various wars that put everyone on opposing sides, is because everyone benefits from it. It was never a particularly close community, and what happened in the Karma war isn't any different than what happened in UJW.

[Stumpy Jung Il]

It's always been mutually beneficial. The only reason it's survived so long, despite all the political divisions within it, despite the various wars that put everyone on opposing sides, is because everyone benefits from it. It was never a particularly close community, and what happened in the Karma war isn't any different than what happened in UJW.

I disagree and I will not sit by as my alliance holds onto a treaty that we no longer feel connected too, nor do I feel that Vanguard still benefits from it. I personally don't think anyone should.

[Delta1212]

As an original signatory of OUT and an original drafter of the OST, I get the impression some people don't quite "get" it. Orange is one of the most powerful, largest, and successful and politically vibrant and diverse colors, and has been for a long time. Much of that is due to OUT and OST. Deriding as just being a NAP or just being some tool or shield completely misses the point. Throwing a tantrum because the Senate isn't entirely open to you is absurd.

Orange facts: IRON started voluntarily rotating its seat over a year ago, and ODN shortly after - once they decided it was safe to do so. The Orange Senate Treaty was originally a concession on IRON's part towards the two other then-major Orange alliances and basically just a commitment on IRON's part to only hold one Senate seat, despite being capable of holding two. IRON was late to the original negotiations over OUT and had very little say in the original treaty for a number of reasons, but has still stood by it and supported it ever since. The Orange Senate has never been abused since OST was signed, and since OUT and OST were originally signed Orange has grown phenomenally.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Orange has an especially large number of individually talented alliances whose existences on the Orange sphere precede OUT considerably. From what I know of OUT, I'm not really sure how it can be especially connected to the individual success of any Orange alliance, which is from where the sphere derives its growth as a whole. Perhaps OUT causing Orange's growth is not what you meant, but it's what it sounded like you were communicating.

[Soccerbum]

I can still see why Vanguard would feel as if they aren't part of that community anymore. All this talk of the Orange Senate seems entirely off-base. I don't know, but it seems like Vanguard didn't care so much about that and cared more about feeling as if they belonged. And someone up there mentioned how TOP and IRON are discussing canceling the OST and/or dissolving it? ... ?

[Rafael Nadal]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Orange has an especially large number of individually talented alliances whose existences on the Orange sphere precede OUT considerably. From what I know of OUT, I'm not really sure how it can be especially connected to the individual success of any Orange alliance, which is from where the sphere derives its growth as a whole. Perhaps OUT causing Orange's growth is not what you meant, but it's what it sounded like you were communicating.

This. I mean earlier in this topic TOP boasted about all their in-house trade circles, virtually allowing them to switch spheres without much hassle. I don't think OUT helped them get all their in house trade circles. OUT has done nothing out of the ordinary to help the sphere grow. Tech deals, trade circles, etc are all driven by the general members of the alliances. There have been no real economic directives or plans from OUT.

I don't hold a burning desire to be a part of an ODP bloc.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Rafael Nadal

[DogeWilliam]

And someone up there mentioned how TOP and IRON are discussing canceling the OST and/or dissolving it? ... ?

I believe that just means general forum discussions. Run of the mill sorts of things to dally over.

[Heft]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Orange has an especially large number of individually talented alliances whose existences on the Orange sphere precede OUT considerably. From what I know of OUT, I'm not really sure how it can be especially connected to the individual success of any Orange alliance, which is from where the sphere derives its growth as a whole. Perhaps OUT causing Orange's growth is not what you meant, but it's what it sounded like you were communicating.

This. I mean earlier in this topic TOP boasted about all their in-house trade circles, virtually allowing them to switch spheres without much hassle. I don't think OUT helped them get all their in house trade circles. OUT has done nothing out of the ordinary to help the sphere grow. Tech deals, trade circles, etc are all driven by the general members of the alliances. There have been no real economic directives or plans from OUT.

I don't hold a burning desire to be a part of an ODP bloc.

Its existence, and the protection it grants, has created stability and trust. There has been no inter-sphere conflict (aside from minor political flare-ups and that one GLOF incident). While certainly all of that grew out of and feeds off of the presence of so many strong and influential alliances, it also returns the favor and feeds them back.

Maybe today it just seems like a given that Orange should be so powerful, but if it weren't for those two treaties I don't doubt that inter-sphere conflict would have arisen a long time ago (probably UJW), especially given how OST, specifically, was little more than an attempt to head off growing tensions between IRON/ODN/TOP.

Claiming that you don't feel part of the "community" doesn't make any sense because OUT has always had deep divisions and disagreements. Its strength has always been in keeping those divisions and disagreements from turning militant, not in bridging or healing them.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Heft

[Franklin]

I just don't think there is anything to gain from canceling it, and it serves as a mini UN between it's members should a problem in orange takes place, so for that it is worth keeping for me.

This statement sums up OUT for me.

Claiming that you don't feel part of the "community" doesn't make any sense because OUT has always had deep divisions and disagreements. Its strength has always been in keeping those divisions and disagreements from turning militant, not in bridging or healing them.

yes, and in fostering a mutual understanding of "while we may not always agree, we can get along peacefully." By cancelling it has shown me that Vanguard feels it can no longer peacefully co-exist with the rest of orange. That is what today's statement has left me with, also a deep sense of personal hurt like you are turning away from your family.

[Rafael Nadal]

Its existence, and the protection it grants, has created stability and trust. There has been no inter-sphere conflict (aside from minor political flare-ups and that one GLOF incident). While certainly all of that grew out of and feeds off of the presence of so many strong and influential alliances, it also returns the favor and feeds them back.

Maybe today it just seems like a given that Orange should be so powerful, but if it weren't for those two treaties I don't doubt that inter-sphere conflict would have arisen a long time ago (probably UJW), especially given how OST, specifically, was little more than an attempt to head off growing tensions between IRON/ODN/TOP.

Claiming that you don't feel part of the "community" doesn't make any sense because OUT has always had deep divisions and disagreements. Its strength has always been in keeping those divisions and disagreements from turning militant, not in bridging or healing them.

I don't want to be a part of anything that only serves to artificially mask the consequences of a disagreement. Seems to me the main point of OUT should be to bridge or heal, in order to actually bring Orange closer together, but that's probably why I just took us out of this treaty, and the rest are still in it.

[Heft]

I don't want to be a part of anything that only serves to artificially mask the consequences of a disagreement. Seems to me the main point of OUT should be to bridge or heal, in order to actually bring Orange closer together, but that's probably why I just took us out of this treaty, and the rest are still in it.

Well I don't think I can explain it much better than Khyber or Franklin, so I'll just point you to them.

[SpoiL]

This is a sad day for orange unity, a very sad day indeed. I am at a loss for words really. I am not pleased by this turn of events at all friends...

Truly a pity.

One step backwards for sphere wars

[Shodemofi-NPO]

Because of this, and the fact there is no inherent advantage of being allies to your fellow color sphere alliances as opposed to an alliance on a different color sphere

I especially like this line, and agree wholeheartedly.