NPO History Discussion

[Essenia]

Oh come on.

There are two options here:

1: NPO leadership is totally clueless and has no foresight whatsoever. They honestly didn't know that attacking OV would draw in SuperFriends and C&G.

2: NPO leadership made a deliberate move to lure SuperFriends and C&G into a curbstomp, failing because they miscalculated the loyalties of several alliances, namely Citadel and Sparta.

3: NPO thought that by attacking with TORN, an OUT member, they could make CnG neutral or even on their side. That's how dilber explained it.

[Fallen Fool]

There are, in fact, plenty of other options, most owing to the NPO's position as the "leader" of that adventure being rather dubious (not to mention the apparently shoddy state of affairs within the NPO's political leadership).

Heft is correct.

From my perspective, the truth of the matter is that the writing on the wall was clear after the Second Patriotic War. After that point, it was inevitable that there was going to be a war between pro- and anti-NPO sections of the Hegemony. The preeminent question was just who would end up on whose side.

In the build-up to the war, however, NPO's leadership was, as Heft noted, impotent for reasons that are debatable. Regardless, by the time of the immediate weeks before the war it was becoming increasingly apparent that, despite NPO's efforts, their political base of support was continuing to dwindle. Presumably NPO's leadership realized this and decided to take a gamble by using the first halfway decent CB to start a war which would rally their base, destroy the opposition before before they managed to really consolidate their position, and hopefully drive the people on the fence into further indecision for at least enough time for the decisive blow to be dealt.

And, honestly, it almost worked. According to some people I know, in the initial days and hours before the declaration it looked like Karma might implode due to various differences. The problem for NPO, however, was that they blew the opening stages of the war. Between declaring during negotiations and leaving TORN behind, NPO managed to consolidate Karma, push the fence sitters into the oppositions camp, and cause major division in their own base. From that point, NPO's fate in relation to the war was sealed.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Fallen_Fool

[Doitzel]

Heft is correct.

From my perspective, the truth of the matter is that the writing on the wall was clear after the Second Patriotic War. After that point, it was inevitable that there was going to be a war between pro- and anti-NPO sections of the Hegemony. The preeminent question was just who would end up on whose side.

In the build-up to the war, however, NPO's leadership was, as Heft noted, impotent for reasons that are debatable. Regardless, by the time of the immediate weeks it was becoming increasingly apparent that, despite their efforts, their political base of support was continuing to dwindle appreciably. Presumably NPO's leadership realized this and decided to take a gamble by using the first halfway decent CB to start a war which would rally their base and destroy the opposition before before they managed to really consolidate their position, and in the hopes that the people on the fence would remain indecisive enough for the decisive blow to be dealt.

And, honestly, it almost worked. According to some people I know, in the initial days and hours before the declaration it looked like Karma might implode due to various differences. The problem for NPO, however, was that they blew the opening stages of the war. Between declaring during negotiations and leaving TORN behind, NPO managed to consolidate Karma, push the fence sitters into the oppositions camp, and cause major division in their own base. From that point, NPO's fate in relation to the war, was sealed.

Everything Fallen Fool said is true. Karma was firing the MG at its own foot. Their saving grace was that NPO was firing a rocket launcher.

[Ragashingo]

Everything Fallen Fool said is true. Karma was firing the MG at its own foot. Their saving grace was that NPO was firing a rocket launcher.

Nice analogy.

[muffasamini]

The NPO came from a different game. Grew. There was something called the UJW, lots of backdoor drama. It was lots of fun, but it only made everyone even more angry. People wish we could still be in the UJW, so were replaying it over and over like a good song being covered by worse and worse bands.

@Lord Brendan: you over-estimate SuperFriends importance in war planning. It wasnt about you.

@Fallen_Fool: I'm actually going to go with this one. I think it leans a little anti-NPO for my tastes, but I'm going for yes. I'll corect though "between declaring during negotiations and leaving TORN behind" those werent the reasons. Your right about what happened, but wrong on the small details of what the 'real' reasons were.

Edited August 21, 2009 by muffasamini

[Cortath]

King Justin would be tickled to know that some of us are talking about him. *chuckles*

[mushi]

Heft is correct.

From my perspective, the truth of the matter is that the writing on the wall was clear after the Second Patriotic War. After that point, it was inevitable that there was going to be a war between pro- and anti-NPO sections of the Hegemony. The preeminent question was just who would end up on whose side.

In the build-up to the war, however, NPO's leadership was, as Heft noted, impotent for reasons that are debatable. Regardless, by the time of the immediate weeks before the war it was becoming increasingly apparent that, despite NPO's efforts, their political base of support was continuing to dwindle. Presumably NPO's leadership realized this and decided to take a gamble by using the first halfway decent CB to start a war which would rally their base, destroy the opposition before before they managed to really consolidate their position, and hopefully drive the people on the fence into further indecision for at least enough time for the decisive blow to be dealt.

And, honestly, it almost worked. According to some people I know, in the initial days and hours before the declaration it looked like Karma might implode due to various differences. The problem for NPO, however, was that they blew the opening stages of the war. Between declaring during negotiations and leaving TORN behind, NPO managed to consolidate Karma, push the fence sitters into the oppositions camp, and cause major division in their own base. From that point, NPO's fate in relation to the war was sealed.

this must be the most accurate so far.

[Seerow]

Should you be accusing the NPO of rewriting history when you are distorting it yourself? I'm of course referring to the events of the GWI.

The traitor himself acknowledged the logs were doctored.

EDIT: thanks Vladimir

The traitor himself acknowledged the logs were doctored, yet maintained (or gained? Not sure of his position prior to being found out) his government position despite being an exposed spy. Certainly there's reasonable doubt regarding anything he said afterwards, because that really just reeks of some sort of deal being cut.

That said I'm not arguing one way or the other, I'm just pointing out how there could still be doubt despite his admission.

[Branimir]

King Justin would be tickled to know that some of us are talking about him. *chuckles*

Oh I am sure he would, he was quite a pompous guy

Seerow, I really dont know what you are talking about, but its funny, as is Doitz. Nosey was kicked out of NPO the second it was found out he was Coven, and later on he admitted that he didnt presented the full logs to the Legion, which were presented by the NPO later on to which authenticity he confirmed. I am completely perplexed that this is actually a debate topic in 2009., because not only is the matter cleared by all sides of that chain of events, but I mean, 90% of current cyberverse wasn't even there I don't really believe they care.

[Khyber]

I would be intrested in learning what the problems in the Karma camp were in the lead up to that war?

We got mixed messages in TOP, it was no war, then yes a war was going to happen, then no war again, then the NPO attacked. Our signals came from reading what was taking place in the negotiations.

From my reading of the general assembly most thought the CB was justified but that the NPO should let it go. After all we had done the same with allies of the NPO and not made issue with some things in the past for their sake, and we figured they knew how this would put us in a !@#$ty position. All that changed though with the attack when we were in negotiations, the pro NPO elements faded quickly. Granted in the next couple of days some became anti Karma due to Archon's speech and the reality that some were carrying out their revenge for x issue done y time ago.

I'm curious to know what was happening in all the other camps. What was the disputes taking place in Karma about? What was happening in IRON, TORN, NpO, NPO and so on in the lead up to the war. I know everything will be jaded and there are often 2-3 main views on what took place, but I'm curious none the less.

[Vladimir]

The traitor himself acknowledged the logs were doctored, yet maintained (or gained? Not sure of his position prior to being found out) his government position despite being an exposed spy. Certainly there's reasonable doubt regarding anything he said afterwards, because that really just reeks of some sort of deal being cut.

That said I'm not arguing one way or the other, I'm just pointing out how there could still be doubt despite his admission.

He was kicked out and banned from the forum. He is still banned from the forum.

[Mussolandia]

The traitor himself acknowledged the logs were doctored, yet maintained (or gained? Not sure of his position prior to being found out) his government position despite being an exposed spy. Certainly there's reasonable doubt regarding anything he said afterwards, because that really just reeks of some sort of deal being cut.

That said I'm not arguing one way or the other, I'm just pointing out how there could still be doubt despite his admission.

He was expelled immediately.

That makes the count two on "ridiculous conspiracy theories on events that happened 3 years ago".

[Petrovich4]

3: NPO thought that by attacking with TORN, an OUT member, they could make CnG neutral or even on their side. That's how dilber explained it.

::chuckles::

NPO + friends had asked Vanguard well before the first bullet was fired whether we would honour OUT and not attack TORN. Our answer was that we would honour it. If that signalled to them that they could sideline Vanguard and thus C&G, they were horribly wrong due to three specific, blatantly obvious (maybe not so obvious to the hopeful) reasons.

If I remember correctly we got a general heads up approx. a week before the initial negotiations began that we would be involved in a big war. We got very excited once we found out who we were playing against, considering they had wanted to play with us since Aug 08.

Khyber: To sum it up (this is accurate on a general note) - Too many little and big chiefs, not enough Indians. Eventually the Tribe split into factions; the same goal, different ideas.

[Lord Brendan]

3: NPO thought that by attacking with TORN, an OUT member, they could make CnG neutral or even on their side. That's how dilber explained it.

That falls under option 1.

Heft is correct.

From my perspective, the truth of the matter is that the writing on the wall was clear after the Second Patriotic War. After that point, it was inevitable that there was going to be a war between pro- and anti-NPO sections of the Hegemony. The preeminent question was just who would end up on whose side.

In the build-up to the war, however, NPO's leadership was, as Heft noted, impotent for reasons that are debatable. Regardless, by the time of the immediate weeks before the war it was becoming increasingly apparent that, despite NPO's efforts, their political base of support was continuing to dwindle. Presumably NPO's leadership realized this and decided to take a gamble by using the first halfway decent CB to start a war which would rally their base, destroy the opposition before before they managed to really consolidate their position, and hopefully drive the people on the fence into further indecision for at least enough time for the decisive blow to be dealt.

And, honestly, it almost worked. According to some people I know, in the initial days and hours before the declaration it looked like Karma might implode due to various differences. The problem for NPO, however, was that they blew the opening stages of the war. Between declaring during negotiations and leaving TORN behind, NPO managed to consolidate Karma, push the fence sitters into the oppositions camp, and cause major division in their own base. From that point, NPO's fate in relation to the war was sealed.

And this falls under option 2.

Either you knew who Ordo Verde had treaties with or you didn't. If you did then you knew your attack would draw in SuperFriends and C&G. If you didn't then you aren't very smart.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Lord Brendan

[Heft]

And, honestly, it almost worked. According to some people I know, in the initial days and hours before the declaration it looked like Karma might implode due to various differences. The problem for NPO, however, was that they blew the opening stages of the war. Between declaring during negotiations and leaving TORN behind, NPO managed to consolidate Karma, push the fence sitters into the oppositions camp, and cause major division in their own base. From that point, NPO's fate in relation to the war was sealed.

Well I don't entirely buy that NPO "left" TORN behind but otherwise yea sure close enough.

[Lord Brendan]

Well I don't entirely buy that NPO "left" TORN behind but otherwise yea sure close enough.

It doesn't really matter whether they actually did or not, same as whether or not they truly "declared during negotiations". Everyone thought they did, so the effect was the same.

[Delta1212]

Well I don't entirely buy that NPO "left" TORN behind but otherwise yea sure close enough.

NPO talked to Archon about ending the war before talking to TORN. Later on, they tried blaming the entire thing on TORN while trying to extricate themselves. Of course, by this time I think NPO and TORN were rather split by the fact that NPO hadn't discussed things with TORN first and the fact that TORN had gone around telling everyone NPO had tried to abandon them.

Whether NPO actually was trying to pull out without TORN or just acting without thinking things all the way through as a symptom of the very panicky mood most people were in at this point is debatable, though.

[Fallen Fool]

@Fallen_Fool: I'm actually going to go with this one. I think it leans a little anti-NPO for my tastes, but I'm going for yes. I'll corect though "between declaring during negotiations and leaving TORN behind" those werent the reasons. Your right about what happened, but wrong on the small details of what the 'real' reasons were.

Oh?

What were the "real" reasons then?

NpO

Based on my experiences/observations:

Grub pointedly refused to favor any side over the other, even in his private conversations with his own government and advisers, until it became clear just where our various treaty partners would end up, and how they got there. By the time that happened, however, it was abundantly clear that both coalitions' premises were fairly flawed and that Polar would not be obligated to intervene due to the fact that all of its allies entered through either offensive actions or other treaties.

So instead Polar say on the sidelines and offered varying levels of military, moral, diplomatic, and financial support to its individual allies and friends.

And this falls under option 2.

Either you knew who Ordo Verde had treaties with or you didn't. If you did then you knew your attack would draw in SuperFriends and C&G. If you didn't then you aren't very smart.

Your option 2 is flawed.

By the time NPO decided to war against OV everyone was firmly in one of three camps: Hegemony, Karma, and Undecided. What your option 2 does is assume that NPO "miscalculated" the loyalty of the Undecided, which they didn't. The Undecided were not anymore loyal to Karma then they were to Hegemony during the build-up to the initial declaration of war, even when it became increasingly likely that war was unavoidable. In the end what served to push them out of apathy or indecision and into either full neutrality or Karma's camp was the fact that NPO was, as Doitzel noted, shooting a rocket launcher at its own foot. It was not out of some enduring or new found loyalty to the alliances in Karma which NPO somehow overlooked.

[Lord Brendan]

Your option 2 is flawed.

By the time NPO decided to war against OV everyone was firmly in one of three camps: Hegemony, Karma, and Undecided. What your option 2 does is assume that NPO "miscalculated" the loyalty of the Undecided, which they didn't. The Undecided were not anymore loyal to Karma then they were to Hegemony during the build-up to the initial declaration of war, even when it became increasingly likely that war was unavoidable. In the end what served to push them out of apathy or indecision and into either full neutrality or Karma's camp was the fact that NPO was, as Doitzel noted, shooting a rocket launcher at its own foot. It was not out of some enduring or new found loyalty to the alliances in Karma which NPO somehow overlooked.

Fine then.

2: NPO leadership made a deliberate move to lure SuperFriends and C&G into a curbstomp, failing because their actions pushed the undecided camp onto Karma's side.

It amounts to the same thing.

edit: how do you figure that Polar "stayed on the sidelines"? You joined the fight via an optional aggression clause.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Lord Brendan

[Fallen Fool]

edit: how do you figure that Polar "stayed on the sidelines"? You joined the fight via an optional aggression clause.

Because I personally don't consider Polaris limited participation in the war against DOOM and ML to be a front in the wider war. Edited August 21, 2009 by Fallen_Fool

[Lord Brendan]

Because I personally don't consider Polaris limited participation in the war against DOOM and ML to be a front in the wider war.

That's ridiculous. Your contributions might not have been much, but DOOM and especially ML were fully engaged in the Karma War and by attacking them you greatly decreased their ability to fight.

[Khyber]

I think it is best summed up as playing a supporting role to allies that were on the Karma side. Yes I consider NpO and TOP both as being on the Karma side, and don't buy into the "we fought for our allies on the Karma side, but were not part of Karma".

[Delta1212]

Because I personally don't consider Polaris limited participation in the war against DOOM and ML to be a front in the wider war.

And the NoCB war consisted of two distinct and entirely separate wars that just happened to be going on at the same time.

[Mussolandia]

He got you there. We were on Karma's side, both alliances, even if we did not have Karma's overarching goals and our participation was limited. Let's call things what they are.

The "several wars happening at the same time" line brought up last year was propaganda. There was only one war and its purpose was to defeat the NpO.

[Fallen Fool]

That's ridiculous. Your contributions might not have been much, but DOOM and especially ML were fully engaged in the Karma War and by attacking them you greatly decreased their ability to fight.

Polar's involvement only came after both DOOM and ML had already been marginalized as effective fighting forces. When that fact is taken into account with the knowledge that Polar really only engaged in a handful of wars, I think that it can be assumed that my personal belief is not "ridiculous."

I think it is best summed up as playing a supporting role to allies that were on the Karma side. Yes I consider NpO and TOP both as being on the Karma side, and don't buy into the "we fought for our allies on the Karma side, but were not part of Karma".

And the NoCB war consisted of two distinct and entirely separate wars that just happened to be going on at the same time.

He got you there. We were on Karma's side, both alliances, even if we did not have Karma's overarching goals and our participation was limited. Let's call things what they are.

The "several wars happening at the same time" line brought up last year was propaganda. There was only one war and its purpose was to defeat the NpO.

Right right right.

Sheesh. Why won't you people just let me clutch to my personal flights of fancy

Edited August 21, 2009 by Fallen_Fool