The Unjust War

[Sandwich Controversy]

A UJP victory would have ended in the disbandment of the other side, horrible curbstomps for anyone who angered the top alliances - including such offenses as happening to have the top sanction spot - and rolling a plethora of alliances they didn't like in the next GW without any real CB, all the while making everyone who wasn't allied to the ruling coalition live in constant fear of getting rolled to the point where they were afraid of canceling treaties with alliances they no longer spoke to.

Right. It would have been a completely different Planet Bob.

This is pretty much accurate, actually. But at least the Hegemony would be entertaining as they did it.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Sandwich Controversy

[Essenia]

One Vision wasn't built to rule though. You wont believe me, but Polar pitched the One Vision idea as a way to take a small group of close allies that were already treatied to each other, and bring them to one central point. The idea was to allow us better communication and sharing of ideas and goals. Basically re-creating some of the positive aspects of the Drinking Buddies. Despite that general consensus, Polar was never interested in being a Hegemonic force. We never wanted to rule the game or prevent folks from playing. We wanted to have enough strength to survive and defeat whoever our enemy at the time was. Nothing more and nothing less.

And yet those close allies all ended up fighting against your side in the next major war. So I guess you just allied with a bunch of close allies that you didn't realize were traitors/cowards?

[RandomInterrupt]

And yet those close allies all ended up fighting against your side in the next major war. So I guess you just allied with a bunch of close allies that you didn't realize were traitors/cowards?

We're getting off topic now as we are leaving the UJW period, but I guess it's your thread. There are many reasons that One Vision went from being a group of close allies to a group of folks trying to kill us. This has been debated at great length for many months, but the short version is:

1. The NPO wanted to kill Polar

2. Polar failed to keep a good relationship with IRON and the GGA and instead allowed the NPO to pick up where we left off (Now we all know how the GGA/NPO relationship was)

3. We had internal problems and failed to resolve them in time to prevent what was already in action

4. We weren't proactive enough, and instead waited for problems to come to us

So it was a combination of said alliances being traitors and cowards and Polar not doing enough/fast enough to address it and prevent it.

[Swiper]

I blame Random for having such a reasonable view of past events.

[Essenia]

We're getting off topic now as we are leaving the UJW period, but I guess it's your thread. There are many reasons that One Vision went from being a group of close allies to a group of folks trying to kill us. This has been debated at great length for many months, but the short version is:

The thread was started because I was curious about the % of current players who fought for ~ and UJP and what people think about the war now. The discussion is an added bonus.

Edited July 28, 2009 by essenia

[hizzy]

And yet those close allies all ended up fighting against your side in the next major war. So I guess you just allied with a bunch of close allies that you didn't realize were traitors/cowards?

Well, some people put power ahead of friendship. A pretty common fault, I guess, but they got theirs in turn. Most of them, anyways.

[Trout]

I was in \m/ and i'm proud to have fought for UJP. I was gangbanged by one IRON, one Lolegion, and NpO. boy was that fun. Wished UJP won.

[Essenia]

Well, some people put power ahead of friendship. A pretty common fault, I guess, but they got theirs in turn. Most of them, anyways.

Yes, those alliances got their due...

[Brotherington]

I was pretty pleased with how it ended actually.

I still honestly believe that an Unjust Path win would have resulted in a far different type of game today, and it wouldn't be pretty. The folks who were defeated and as a result left the game are not people that would have been responsible victors, for sure. They loved being tyrants and were proud of it. How many people just fought a war to take down the NPO for creating a Hegemony and basically being a cruel dictator? Does anyone really think the GOONS would have been more benevolent? I guess we'll never know, but personally I think we had the best result possible.

The only thing I wish I could have done differently was work to consolidate power after the war better. Basically ~ smashed the UJP path apart, when we went off and relaxed in our victory. While we relaxed the NPO used the opening we created to form the Hegemony in order to isolate and destroy Polar. Had Polar actually been the bad guys we were made out to be, we'd of kept working post UJW and denied the Continuum the ability to form. Minor slip up, I guess.

In terms of the war itself though, it was great fun and my personal greatest accomplishments in this game were in the planning of said war. The good guys won, the bad guys lost, and the game is better off for it.

I don't deny your assesment of the UjP, but had the GOONS won they wouldn't have been strong enough to oppress the entire world, and their barefaced tyranny may have lead to alot of conflict. Theres no doubt in my mind that the last 2 years would have been more exciting enjoyable for most people had the UjW gone differently.

[Penguin]

And yet those close allies all ended up fighting against your side in the next major war. So I guess you just allied with a bunch of close allies that you didn't realize were traitors/cowards?

We had plenty of close allies more than willing to take a bullet for us, thank you very much. Why do you think so many were willing to fight on Polar's behalf when they had two months opportunity to cancel a treaty that they knew meant certain death?

[Vladimir]

RandomInterrupt is incorrect. Polar's post-war diplomatic position was more or less as essenia describes it. The Continuum wanted nothing to do with Polar from many corners due to their complete lack of discipline at the top, with many opposing it on both a personal level (Sponge in particular was extremely abusive to many member alliances) and a strategic level (it was thought that a bloc with an abusive and self-destructive alliance like Polar in it wouldn't survive long -- something that proved correct). Even the close alliances that Polar built up such as BLEU were riddled with strife as a result of aforementioned lack of discipline, quickly becoming one of many to require Pacifican diplomats to reason and plead with members not to abandon it for lengthy periods, costing great amounts of political capital.

The primary reason that Polar was never in a Continuum-esque bloc was because no one else would have joined it. It doesn't require a great Pacifican conspiracy (though I know how popular these are at the moment) to explain Polar's advance (or lack thereof) in the post-Unjust period. In fact, as has been well demonstrated in the past, Polar would have been attacked months earlier had it not been for the protective (military and diplomatic) shield that Pacifica put over her sister alliance.

Changing this self-destructive culture and the related public perception of it is the greatest testament to Grub's leadership over the past year.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Vladimir

[MagicalTrevor]

Ujp4lyf brah

[Big Z]

Heh, #unjustmassacre was fun, even if it was a mess at times. Looking back however, it definitely would have been interesting to see how things would have been different had the UJP won.

Edit: At least twoc would still be here with us today D:

Edited July 28, 2009 by Big Z

[Louisa]

I do not care at all about the politics here, who was right/wrong, who deserved to win/lose, etc; I am not into these politics.

But in the war I was in GOONS, I fought a bunch of people and had fun all the time (even if most enemies was too stroppy to even talk to me), and have no regrets at all about that time. I still have no real clue what it was all about (I was away the month before it began) but it was a fun time

[Prime minister Johns]

Some people are not ashamed of the glory the comes from ascending via the unjust path.

I wonder how many people actually remember how the unjust path got its name?

Gather around children and I shall tell you a tale of a time long ago.

According to the old records,

There once was a fellow called Max337 who established a small alliance that the GOONS rolled because they could and nobody could stop them.

And in a rage filled post he denounced the GOONS as ascending via an unjust path

Link to the old forums

And that is how the UJP got its name.

Now go away the history lesson is over....

[Essenia]

RandomInterrupt is incorrect. Polar's post-war diplomatic position was more or less as essenia describes it. The Continuum wanted nothing to do with Polar from many corners due to their complete lack of discipline at the top, with many opposing it on both a personal level (Sponge in particular was extremely abusive to many member alliances) and a strategic level (it was thought that a bloc with an abusive and self-destructive alliance like Polar in it wouldn't survive long -- something that proved correct). Even the close alliances that Polar built up such as BLEU were riddled with strife as a result of aforementioned lack of discipline, quickly becoming one of many to require Pacifican diplomats to reason and plead with members not to abandon it for lengthy periods, costing great amounts of political capital.

The primary reason that Polar was never in a Continuum-esque bloc was because no one else would have joined it. It doesn't require a great Pacifican conspiracy (though I know how popular these are at the moment) to explain Polar's advance (or lack thereof) in the post-Unjust period. In fact, as has been well demonstrated in the past, Polar would have been attacked months earlier had it not been for the protective (military and diplomatic) shield that Pacifica put over her sister alliance.

Changing this self-destructive culture and the related public perception of it is the greatest testament to Grub's leadership over the past year.

I just lost the debate.

I wonder how many people actually remember how the unjust path got its name?

Me? The way it was created made it so much more amazing; I was there loling back then as well.

We had plenty of close allies more than willing to take a bullet for us, thank you very much. Why do you think so many were willing to fight on Polar's behalf when they had two months opportunity to cancel a treaty that they knew meant certain death?

I am referring specifically to 1v, which was supposed to be close allies, but ended up all against you.

Edited July 28, 2009 by essenia

[RandomInterrupt]

RandomInterrupt is incorrect. Polar's post-war diplomatic position was more or less as essenia describes it. The Continuum wanted nothing to do with Polar from many corners due to their complete lack of discipline at the top, with many opposing it on both a personal level (Sponge in particular was extremely abusive to many member alliances) and a strategic level (it was thought that a bloc with an abusive and self-destructive alliance like Polar in it wouldn't survive long -- something that proved correct). Even the close alliances that Polar built up such as BLEU were riddled with strife as a result of aforementioned lack of discipline, quickly becoming one of many to require Pacifican diplomats to reason and plead with members not to abandon it for lengthy periods, costing great amounts of political capital.

The primary reason that Polar was never in a Continuum-esque bloc was because no one else would have joined it. It doesn't require a great Pacifican conspiracy (though I know how popular these are at the moment) to explain Polar's advance (or lack thereof) in the post-Unjust period. In fact, as has been well demonstrated in the past, Polar would have been attacked months earlier had it not been for the protective (military and diplomatic) shield that Pacifica put over her sister alliance.

Changing this self-destructive culture and the related public perception of it is the greatest testament to Grub's leadership over the past year.

Shouldn't you be writing your next essay "How the NPO Won Every War Ever?" Your revisionist history lesson has marred an otherwise polite and truthful thread. Please take your lies BS elsewhere.

[hizzy]

RandomInterrupt is incorrect. Polar's post-war diplomatic position was more or less as essenia describes it. The Continuum wanted nothing to do with Polar from many corners due to their complete lack of discipline at the top, with many opposing it on both a personal level (Sponge in particular was extremely abusive to many member alliances) and a strategic level (it was thought that a bloc with an abusive and self-destructive alliance like Polar in it wouldn't survive long -- something that proved correct).

BLEU's destruction had less to do with Polar's "self-destructiveness" and more with all the NS that NPO rallied against it. But hey remember when NPO tried to put up their own Blue bloc? What was it, Agora? How much NS did it take to knock that sucker down? Oh right. Not a damn thing.

Even the close alliances that Polar built up such as BLEU were riddled with strife as a result of aforementioned lack of discipline, quickly becoming one of many to require Pacifican diplomats to reason and plead with members not to abandon it for lengthy periods, costing great amounts of political capital.

BLEU was not riddled with strife. A few of the alliances were lead by spineless leadership, and all NPO had to do was wave a bone and the dogs came running. The rest of us were fine. If it really was "riddled with strife", then that same core of people wouldn't be here still working together, would we?

[Sandwich Controversy]

I wonder how many people actually remember how the unjust path got its name?

Gather around children and I shall tell you a tale of a time long ago.

According to the old records,

There once was a fellow called Max337 who established a small alliance that the GOONS rolled because they could and nobody could stop them.

And in a rage filled post he denounced the GOONS as ascending via an unjust path

Link to the old forums

And that is how the UJP got its name.

Now go away the history lesson is over....

That is not the reason Max337 did not like GOONS. In September 2006, when in fact it was against the rules to raid in GOONS (yes, there was a time when that was true), he attacked us and then refused to pay reparations. Please stop making things up in an attempt to smear an already-dead alliance.

It's all here: http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...t&p=4762937

Heh, #unjustmassacre was fun, even if it was a mess at times. Looking back however, it definitely would have been interesting to see how things would have been different had the UJP won.

Edit: At least twoc would still be here with us today D:

But he is here today!

Edited July 28, 2009 by Sandwich Controversy

[Louisa]

According to the old records,

There once was a fellow called Max337 who established a small alliance that the GOONS rolled because they could and nobody could stop them.

Link to the old forums

If you would actually read that link (I assume it is to the correct thread) you would know that there was no unjust goon-rolling of his Alliance involved in that situation, but he refused to pay reparations for attacking GOONs in the first place.

Also:

GOONS - ever ascending by the unjust path to break the law of peace written on every man's heart so that the thin layer of legality will never cover the mountains of blood.

(Because I still love Max337 and Madmatagar )

e: damn your quickness babyjesus!!

Edited July 28, 2009 by Louisa

[hizzy]

I am referring specifically to 1v, which was supposed to be close allies, but ended up all against you.

Ya, that kinda sucked... but you know what... being betrayed by GGA turned out to be infinitely more comforting than having to be their ally in the 12 months following that. Getting a knife in the back sucked, but $%&@ it would have sucked to have to defend them through all that nonsense they went through.

[Essenia]

That is not the reason Max337 did not like GOONS. In September 2006, when in fact it was against the rules to raid in GOONS (yes, there was a time when that was true), he attacked us and then refused to pay reparations. Please stop making things up in an attempt to smear an already-dead alliance.

It's all here: http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...t&p=4762937

To use the words of a GOON from the ascending thread

1. He attacks a goon. This is okay.

2. Goons attack him. This is not okay because he is peaceful.

3. He likes to use words without knowing what they mean.

[arhctheshark]

I was in Darkfall, a very small alliance MDP'd to Genmay, we fought for the UJP up until the ooc ending

Edited July 28, 2009 by arhctheshark

[Jipps]

I was a neutral unaligned by stander at that point, I really didn't care one way or another about who won.

Looking back, I guess a stalemate would have been cool.

[bill n ted]

IRON MOD at the time.

Best war Ive ever fought it, fighting was absolutely epic from my point atleast. It looked pretty close to call in the first two days but then people in UJP just started running off their mouths OOC and other UJP alliances just jumped on the "we dont condone this so we surrender" bandwagon it all fell to pieces.