TPF's Response to Terms Offered

[shahenshah]

Classy move NV and CCC.

[Gurney Halleck]

I don't understand how these discussions on matters like this become so protracted. It should be simple:

"Here are your terms of surrender."

"Nope. Won't sign that."

"Okay, more war?"

"Yes, please"

"Okay."

[Ying Yang Mafia]

I don't understand how these discussions on matters like this become so protracted. It should be simple:

"Here are your terms of surrender."

"Nope. Won't sign that."

"Okay, more war?"

"Yes, please"

"Okay."

At the end of the day that is really how it all shakes out. I like that method better though, it would save us from all the drama.

[SpiderJerusalem]

I for one have never been a man to like TPF that much. However, this is quite ridiculous. Mhawk have acted honourably through this whole ordeal. TPF in general have been a !@#$@#$ white knight in terms of how to act when an ally get attacked. They have fought bravely and they have done pretty much everything many of their allies failed to do. You know, the allies that got close to white peace in the beginning of this war. The allies that had acted like !@#$@#$ idiots for quite some time now and that pretty much everyone wanted to knock a few pegs down. *cough, cough* GGA *cough* Valhalla *cough, cough*.

I understand that TPF won't get an entirely white peace. But this is a disgrace. This is just a bloody insult. Forcing them to pay that much reps to Poison Clan? And you thought that they'd accept it?

Show that you are able to forgive and forget. Show that your intelligence is at a level a bit above the one found in a hamster. Show that this is truly about change and not about revenge. Give TPF decent and lenient terms. They have paid their dues several times over. End this mockery and take the high ground. I for one know that mhawk won't forget it if you show mercy and kindness in this matter.

Thanks

Edited July 26, 2009 by SpiderJerusalem

[Ragashingo]

I'm not trying to. I guess maybe i should just spell out my points from now on instead of expecting people to figure them out on their own.

Here they are.

1. Stop using TPF's past history to assign guilt and reps. Its irrelevant.

2. Restructure the damn thing so that TPF doesn't have to pay PC directly.

Pretty simple. Everyone wins. Refusal to do so only proves that the intended punishment is disbandment (which for the most part has already been stated throughout the discussion.) This would make Karma as bad as the people they claimed to be fighting against. Karma won its obvious, refusing to give in, in this case, is petty. TPF has agreed to restructure in order to not pay PC. SO RESTRUCTURE!

1. Are we suppose to use their future actions as a guide for rep payments? How would you suggest we do that?

2. Just because TPF (the losing alliance) wants something doesn't mean they will get it. Maybe they should think of having to pay PC as a further punishment and get on with it instead of suffering more and damage by dragging on the war.

[Kilkenny]

We've discussed reps amounts quite a bit and at no point did PC mention to me or MK that they wanted to add the California reps to their terms and that has not affected the amount TPF will be paying. If anything PC might have some of their reps redirected to California, but that is not an addition to TPF, but a subtraction from PC. PC asked for tech reps while the reps to California are money, which makes it unlikely that they were added on.

Also the reps for the most part were based on a formula of 10K tech or it's money equivalent for every 1mill NS in losses. That's how 20K was arrived at for PC and 180 mill to FoB. MK is asking for less than our losses (about 1.5 mill NS or so) because our losses were less proportionally and we don't need reps as much for rebuilding and because we'd be getting some other reps as well (10K from Echelon), and CCC and NV didn't want reps.

It was mentioned in direct PC to TPF talks. That is how they came up with their figure. They in fact told us they would lower their rep amount from us if we agreed to pay California directly. Lower it the exact amount they owe California.

[Vanadrin Failing]

I believe that was already covered by an MK nation. They will not leave an ally out on the field and get peace for themselves. Just like TPF did not want to leave NPO on the field, why would MK and others leave PC out on the field? Abandoning an ally is abandoning an ally even if you're winning the war.

That may be true but out of the alliances listed in Azaghul's initial thread, none of them are allied to Poison Clan. Poison Clan declared in defence of Dark Templar, who were not listed as claimants in the terms as posted in that thread. If this was an oversight, it should be corrected.

Poison Clan is an Enemy of the Enemy. Not an ally.

Additionally, I find it hard to believe that that much of the damage done to Poison Clan was at the hands of TPF. When Poison Clan declared, TPF was already embroiled in several other standing conflicts. There were then counter declarations by a number of alliances against Poison Clan. I would assume that most of the 20,000 tech worth of damage was done in those attacks and that by the time TPF was able to re-target their war machine there wasn't much left to fire at their nemesis.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Vanadrin Failing

[Seerow]

It was mentioned in direct PC to TPF talks. That is how they came up with their figure. They in fact told us they would lower their rep amount from us if we agreed to pay California directly. Lower it the exact amount they owe California.

If it's lowering it I fail to see how it's forcing you to increase the reps to pay for their past problems as was claimed earlier in the thread. They're just redirecting the reps you're paying to the people they'd have to pay to eventually anyway, thus neatly tying up the loose end there.

[Kilkenny]

If it's lowering it I fail to see how it's forcing you to increase the reps to pay for their past problems as was claimed earlier in the thread. They're just redirecting the reps you're paying to the people they'd have to pay to eventually anyway, thus neatly tying up the loose end there.

It was raised first adding in that amount. then offered to lower by the same amount. In effect we pay the reps to California.

[Seerow]

It was raised first adding in that amount. then offered to lower by the same amount. In effect we pay the reps to California.

Right, but in exchange have your reps to PC lowered by the exact same amount... so you pay exactly the same amount, just taking care of their reps for them.

It all adds up to the same amount so whats the difference?

[Vanadrin Failing]

Right, but in exchange have your reps to PC lowered by the exact same amount... so you pay exactly the same amount, just taking care of their reps for them.

It all adds up to the same amount so whats the difference?

Because it would be an additional slap in the face, I'd think.

[Kilkenny]

Right, but in exchange have your reps to PC lowered by the exact same amount... so you pay exactly the same amount, just taking care of their reps for them.

It all adds up to the same amount so whats the difference?

Because PC owes those reps to California, not us. By raising the amount 120mil they are demanding we pay for their mistake, and we won't do that.

[Seerow]

Because it would be an additional slap in the face, I'd think.

Because paying money to someone you like is worse than paying someone you hate.

[Kzoppistan]

"To a surrounded enemy, you must leave a way of escape." ~ Sun Tzu

[pooksland]

That may be true but out of the alliances listed in Azaghul's initial thread, none of them are allied to Poison Clan. Poison Clan declared in defence of Dark Templar, who were not listed as claimants in the terms as posted in that thread. If this was an oversight, it should be corrected.

The Dark Templar already peaced out with TPF, as part of the surrender terms they neogiated with SSSW18

[Vanadrin Failing]

Because paying money to someone you like is worse than paying someone you hate.

When you're paying it to those you like on behalf of those you hate, yes.

The Dark Templar already peaced out with TPF, as part of the surrender terms they neogiated with SSSW18

Thank you for the info, pooksland. I was trying to figure out when DT had left the stage.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Vanadrin Failing

[xoindotnler]

Because paying money to someone you like is worse than paying someone you hate.

What if we replace all of it whit MK? Would you still pay it, would you really want to pay once other stupid acts? I think you would refuse it.

[pooksland]

Because PC owes those reps to California, not us. By raising the amount 120mil they are demanding we pay for their mistake, and we won't do that.

I am sorry Kilkenny but you are wrong. The 20K Tech reps were determined before the subtraction of 120M was even offered. PC took a little bit more then 2M in damages through the war (around 50% of our NS) and as Azaghul explained before each alliance is receiving roughly 10K tech for each 1M in damages done. But keep on telling yourself the opposite, I believe that if you tell yourself the enough, you are going to actually think that is the truth.

[Azaghul]

It was mentioned in direct PC to TPF talks. That is how they came up with their figure. They in fact told us they would lower their rep amount from us if we agreed to pay California directly. Lower it the exact amount they owe California.

At what point was that said?

They may have intended to add it but I don't think they did, based on the fact that it's money vs. tech and the end amount was relatively formulaic.

[Xavii]

"To a surrounded enemy, you must leave a way of escape." ~ Sun Tzu

Sun Tzu didn't play Cybernations.

[kulomascovia]

We fought this war for one reason - to make up for all the times we had been bullied around by TPF while we were a protectorate

Then you yourselves bully a small alliance that doesn't have proper protection? Classy.

[lakerzz8]

That may be true but out of the alliances listed in Azaghul's initial thread, none of them are allied to Poison Clan. Poison Clan declared in defence of Dark Templar, who were not listed as claimants in the terms as posted in that thread. If this was an oversight, it should be corrected.

Poison Clan is an Enemy of the Enemy. Not an ally.

Additionally, I find it hard to believe that that much of the damage done to Poison Clan was at the hands of TPF. When Poison Clan declared, TPF was already embroiled in several other standing conflicts. There were then counter declarations by a number of alliances against Poison Clan. I would assume that most of the 20,000 tech worth of damage was done in those attacks and that by the time TPF was able to re-target their war machine there wasn't much left to fire at their nemesis.

An enemy of an enemy is a friend. I'm sure MK wouldn't appreciate being left alone to fight and as such they are not going to leave PC alone to fight. Would you really abandon someone on the battlefield that stood by your side and helped you defeat a foe?

Reps are not always equal to the damage done. I remember one time an STA nation mistakenly sent money for a tech deal to a nation at war with NPO. The STA than had to pay 3 times that amount in reps to the NPO. Surely 3 mil =/= 9 mil. Some alliances are more lenient with their rep demands, some are more harsh. Just because PC didn't receive more damage from TPF than all the other alliances combined does not mean they cannot demand those kind of reps. As the victors, they are in a position to demand whatever they want. As terrible as that sounds.

[Vanadrin Failing]

An enemy of an enemy is a friend. I'm sure MK wouldn't appreciate being left alone to fight and as such they are not going to leave PC alone to fight. Would you really abandon someone on the battlefield that stood by your side and helped you defeat a foe?

If they used my presence afterward to demand a pricey reward, I'd definitely have a problem with it. If our enemy said 'no' to that reward and fired back, I'd have to consider whether it's really worthwhile to keep fighting just for the sake of this random bloke who helped me out in a firefight.

I wouldn't want my reputation to hinge on someone else. Not now, not ever.

Reps are not always equal to the damage done. I remember one time an STA nation mistakenly sent money for a tech deal to a nation at war with NPO. The STA than had to pay 3 times that amount in reps to the NPO. Surely 3 mil =/= 9 mil. Some alliances are more lenient with their rep demands, some are more harsh. Just because PC didn't receive more damage from TPF than all the other alliances combined does not mean they cannot demand those kind of reps. As the victors, they are in a position to demand whatever they want. As terrible as that sounds.

I wouldn't be discussing the amount of the reparations if it hadn't been spelled out as "10k per Million NS lost". By assigning that 'price' to TPF and TPF alone, you are assigning the sole blame for that damage to TPF when that most certainly was not the case. I'm sure TPF would like to think that they had inflicted that much damage, but Avalon, Zenith and the others who counter-attacked PC might want to have the 'credit' that's due them.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Vanadrin Failing

[Master Hakai]

I for one have never been a man to like TPF that much. However, this is quite ridiculous. Mhawk have acted honourably through this whole ordeal. TPF in general have been a !@#$@#$ white knight in terms of how to act when an ally get attacked. They have fought bravely and they have done pretty much everything many of their allies failed to do. You know, the allies that got close to white peace in the beginning of this war. The allies that had acted like !@#$@#$ idiots for quite some time now and that pretty much everyone wanted to knock a few pegs down. *cough, cough* GGA *cough* Valhalla *cough, cough*.

I understand that TPF won't get an entirely white peace. But this is a disgrace. This is just a bloody insult. Forcing them to pay that much reps to Poison Clan? And you thought that they'd accept it?

Show that you are able to forgive and forget. Show that your intelligence is at a level a bit above the one found in a hamster. Show that this is truly about change and not about revenge. Give TPF decent and lenient terms. They have paid their dues several times over. End this mockery and take the high ground. I for one know that mhawk won't forget it if you show mercy and kindness in this matter.

Thanks

Whoa - buddy, take some medicine and settle down, please!

[SpiderJerusalem]

Whoa - buddy, take some medicine and settle down, please!

I've been silent for way too long

It angers me to see this and therefore I speak up