TPF's Response to Terms Offered

[Tygaland]

You continued your war over pride and principle. You hold no copy right to those ideas tyga.

No, we continued our war until terms that removed and/or banned members of the alliance from government permanently were struck from our peace terms. Once those terms were removed we accepted the remaining peace terms which included an increased amount of reps to compensate for the removed clauses. Seeing as you have no such terms and the ability to have your allies help you pay off reps then your situation is not comparable at all.

[mhawk]

Again, if you are too lazy to read the entire thread. TPF has said they put the clause in for the very purpose PC used it for, PC just used it first.

Once again this is a huge lie.

[mhawk]

No, we continued our war until terms that removed and/or banned members of the alliance from government permanently were struck from our peace terms. Once those terms were removed we accepted the remaining peace terms which included an increased amount of reps to compensate for the removed clauses. Seeing as you have no such terms and the ability to have your allies help you pay off reps then your situation is not comparable at all.

You choose not to accept those terms out of principle. We chose not to pay an unreasonable amount imo. OBM stated they are reasonable. I do not share that view. OBM is not a gov member.

[delendum]

We arent arguing the amount of reps.

We are simply stating that we wont pay backstabbing opportunistic cowards. Is that clear enough?

PC has repeatedly shown their true colors and we simply believe that they should not be rewarded. Honestly, if I were Karma, I would be ashamed to call them allies. In all actuality, by leaving PC out of the reps, everyone else will get more. For some reason I fail to see why they actually care what PC wants or thinks they deserve.

The point is you can afford the luxury of complaining about who you want to pay reps to, seemingly taking everything that is offered to you for granted, while in the past you had absolutely no problem supporting an ally that imposed outrageous terms on an alliance that also fought a defensive war "to the death", the only difference being we had done absolutely nothing to start that war or provoke them.

Objectively speaking, PC are angels compared to the way the NPO has behaved to us in that war and everything surrounding it, yet we paid them reps because we had no choice. You on the other hand, seem to think you somehow deserve to pay reps only to those you select.

Yes, it's a pride thing, it's very clear as far as I'm concerned. Continue the war for as long as you wish based on it, but it's not the terms that keep peace from being reached, it's yourselves. I personally don't care what you chose, but spinning this all on PC is getting old. You aren't in a position to dictate who you want to pay to.

[Tygaland]

You choose not to accept those terms out of principle. We chose not to pay an unreasonable amount imo. OBM stated they are reasonable. I do not share that view. OBM is not a gov member.

No, we chose not to accept those terms because they trampled all over our sovereignty by banning the founder of the alliance as well as other prominent members from government forever.

As I said, infrastructure and technology can be rebought but a community and culture cannot.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Tygaland

[lebubu]

This is getting silly.

PC did not break the treaty in any way; that they canceled it in what was more or less a dick move in your eyes is completely irrelevant. I'm starting to understand Azaghul's frustration - we're not going to beg you to accept them nor will we bend to your will or fracture this front because of this feud you have with PC.

We have no interest or desire in keeping you at war forever or breaking your alliance. You have your terms, you can take them, rebuild and move on/plan your revenge. They're not going anywhere and we have all the time in the world to wait for you to accept them. Your alliance, on the other hand, does not.

Edited July 26, 2009 by lebubu

[han fei zi]

I think I'm in love with lebubu.

[Essenia]

PC did not break the treaty in any way; that they canceled it in what was more or less a dick move in your eyes is completely irrelevant. I'm starting to understand Azaghul's frustration - we're not going to beg you to accept them nor will we bend over to your will or fracture this front because of this feud you have with PC.

Declaring war was not a legal way to cancel the treaty. The treaty was broken by an aggressive attack. They could have activated the cancellation clause if they wished to not violate the treaty.

[Alterego]

PC did not break the treaty in any way

By attacking them they did.

We have no interest or desire in keeping you at war forever or breaking your alliance.

You are just not prepared to do anything else to work towards peace, they have your bill and you just want your loot.

You have your terms, you can take them, rebuild and move on/plan your revenge.

This just reinforces the idea you dont care about their actions you just want your loot.

[delendum]

By attacking them they did.

You are just not prepared to do anything else to work towards peace, they have your bill and you just want your loot.

This just reinforces the idea you dont care about their actions you just want your loot.

Get over yourself, your holiness. The amount TPF would pay doesn't come anywhere near the damages the alliances fighting them took in this war. Reps this lenient only serve symbolic purposes. Unless you somehow think MK and PC will suddenly rule the world with the 29k tech they'd get from TPF.

You are right about one thing though, I really don't care about PC's actions. If I did, it would be only fair to take TPF's past actions into account as well, in which case I'd probably forget about offering them peace altogether.

[Solaris]

You killed my father.

[Alterego]

Get over yourself, your holiness. The amount TPF would pay doesn't come anywhere near the damages the alliances fighting them took in this war. Reps this lenient only serve symbolic purposes. Unless you somehow think MK and PC will suddenly rule the world with the 29k tech they'd get from TPF.

If you think these are lenient after the loss of NS they sustained why do MK keep complaining about the lenient (by comparison) terms they got in the last war?

You are right about one thing though, I really don't care about PC's actions. If I did, it would be only fair to take TPF's past actions into account as well, in which case I'd probably forget about offering them peace altogether.

I was referring to the whole concept of Karma and this war. You said they (TPF) can do what they want, you just want your tech.

[SyndicatedINC]

I don't fancy to back stab.

Which is one of the reasons Avalon is by your side in the first place. Honestly the lack of spine and integrity of so many who would advocate false submission to speed revenge. Agreement to any such peace treaty would be out of fear of further loss and fundementally dishonest. Anyone who signs an armistice with plans to strike back later does so under false pretense and without honour.

We are simply stating that we wont pay backstabbing opportunistic cowards. Is that clear enough?

PC has repeatedly shown their true colors and we simply believe that they should not be rewarded. Honestly, if I were Karma, I would be ashamed to call them allies. In all actuality, by leaving PC out of the reps, everyone else will get more. For some reason I fail to see why they actually care what PC wants or thinks they deserve.

If only the world had more such as yourself it would be a much better place.

[delendum]

If you think these are lenient after the loss of NS they sustained why do MK keep complaining about the lenient (by comparison) terms they got in the last war?

I was referring to the whole concept of Karma and this war. You said they (TPF) can do what they want, you just want your tech.

Are you serious? If you think our terms were lenient by comparison then you're beyond help.

Yes, TPF can do whatever they want, either accept the terms or decline them. How does that mean I just want my tech? If they'd chose to fight on, I'd get no tech. Not only would that not bother me, I'm starting to hope they will more and more.

[delendum]

If only the world had more such as yourself it would be a much better place.

The world was ruled by those such as him. We've all seen how good it was. It's funny how now he'd be ashamed to call somebody like PC allies, when he had no problem calling the NPO et all allies for the longest time.

[lebubu]

By attacking them they did.

Covered in a million other posts.

You are just not prepared to do anything else to work towards peace, they have your bill and you just want your loot.

We've done more than enough.

This just reinforces the idea you dont care about their actions you just want your loot.

It doesn't reinforce anything. You just like drawing whatever conclusions you need to prove your laughable "points".

why do MK keep complaining about the lenient (by comparison) terms they got in the last war?

lol

[Alterego]

Are you serious? If you think our terms were lenient by comparison then you're beyond help.

If you think these terms are lenient then so are you.

Yes, TPF can do whatever they want, either accept the terms or decline them. How does that mean I just want my tech? If they'd chose to fight on, I'd get no tech. Not only would that not bother me, I'm starting to hope they will more and more.

If you say things like just take the peace and get revenge later, just send us our tech then is makes a mokckery of the war being fought to punish them for their "evil ways" In essence you are giving them your approval to attack PC when they rebuild.

[lebubu]

If you think these terms are lenient then so are you.

And more than three quarters of the rulers here. It's a good thing there are still rational people like you around.

In essence you are giving them your approval to attack PC when they rebuild.

They are getting approval to do whatever they please after the war is over. I'm sorry if you're not okay with us not dictating TPF's post-war actions - I'm afraid you'll just have to deal with it.

[delendum]

If you think these terms are lenient then so are you.

If you say things like just take the peace and get revenge later, just send us our tech then is makes a mokckery of the war being fought to punish them for their "evil ways" In essence you are giving them your approval to attack PC when they rebuild.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=64316 - The terms offered are here. The majority of CN thinks they're fair, that you think they're not only speaks of yourself.

Actually, lebubu was trying to express how silly he thinks all this talk around paying PC has become, and that they should just move on already and do whatever they plan on doing. It's TPF's sovereign right to attack anybody they want after they rebuild, if they want to get stomped again on account of their hatred for PC, then so be it. I doubt PC or anyone is worrying about it.

[shahenshah]

Here is my issue with paying reps to PC.

We are told these reps are payment for our past "crimes".

Fine, we may very well deserve it.

Then "crimes" from years ago get thrown in our face and people upset about UJP stuff throws that in there too.

You know who was in TPF then? You know who was upper GOV in TPF then. You know who actively participated in these "crimes"?

People like Twisted, Pooks, CTB and many many other Poison Clan members.

Then you say, well they left TPF and got a clean slate. It's the name of the alliance that carries the taint, not the people who are actually in the alliance or running the alliance when said crimes occur.

Fine, if Bob wants to live by this inane standard, so be it. But to me that'd be like Moo and the IO's leaving NPO and forming a new alliance tomorrow and getting a clean slate out of it. I doubt many on here who support PC now would support that.

Then we get things like NoV thrown in our face from Flinders, things like the rolling of Polaris thrown in our face from MK and STA members.

Fine, we deserve that too.

But you know who also marched on NoV and Polaris allies in the "noCB war"'?

Poison Clan.

They committed every "crime" TPF gets blamed for while members of TPF, often as GOV or they marched on the same side as TPF right up until just after Polaris got rolled.

Look at the PC wiki page. Look at who's side they marched on for their entire existance up to this war. A hint, it rhymes with Bontinuum.

Then via a very sketchy route they use one war declared against us by one alliance to break the NAP and declare on us via an oA clause with that alliance.

Then they raid our protectorate, promise them reps, still paying nothing weeks and weeks later.

Finally, after 3 months of this war, we are expected to pay them more reps than all the other alliances fighting us combined?

That is my problem. We are expected to pay for our "crimes" to the very criminals who helped in commiting nearly every one of those "crimes".

I've been a silent observer in this thread, and seen many arguments back and forth, but I think I may have missed the refutements to this post in particular.

Regards.

[Alterego]

They are getting approval to do whatever they please after the war is over. I'm sorry if you're not okay with us not dictating TPF's post-war actions - I'm afraid you'll just have to deal with it.

I just find it funny you are punishing them for being "evil" and dont mind what they do after you get your tech back.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=64316 - The terms offered are here. The majority of CN thinks they're fair, that you think they're not only speaks of yourself.

If being in the Majority makes you right then Q were right when they had the majority.

[Tygaland]

I just find it funny you are punishing them for being "evil" and dont mind what they do after you get your tech back.

Perhaps you can lobby for a Viceroy to be added to the terms so as to control future actions by TPF once their terms expire? We could call it the Alterego clause.

The general trend is once terms expire the alliance who was under those terms is free to carry out their foreign affairs and internal affairs as they deem fit. Your argument here is asinine.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Tygaland

[mushi]

I just find it funny you are punishing them for being "evil" and dont mind what they do after you get your tech back.

how long have you been playing CN, my friend?

[delendum]

I've been a silent observer in this thread, and seen many arguments back and forth, but I think I may have missed the refutements to this post in particular.

Regards.

I will try to indulge.

This war itself was the result of TPF's past crimes, and it's not only a matter of the things they did while under different leadership, but their continuation of that route. The argument that somehow it was a different TPF back then because other people were ruling it can only go so far, TPF was still in the same place, enjoying the same power, doing the same things, with the same friends. In this war, no alliance was hand picked and pummeled into the ground for what they may have done in the past. It was a matter of where everybody found themselves when the war started rolling, and those who still found themselves by NPO's side were obviously still supportive of its actions and everything it stood for at the time it happened.

So even though leadership might have changed, TPF itself remained the same. Now your arguments with regards to PC having a stained past with stained leaders are moot, PC found themselves on the Karma side, it's as simple as that. Had TPF found themselves in the same place, there wouldn't have been a problem now would there? The fact is PC had changed in what its support and foreign policy is concerned. Tangible change, not just "but we're different now, honest!" talk during the middle of a war. I'm not advocating PC's past innocence, but at the time war started, PC had already been taking a different route for a while - something TPF never even contemplated.

TPF is expected to pay to the alliances that fought them, and bled while doing it. What PC wants to ask is PC's business, while MK has tried to negotiate and compromise in what overall terms are concerned, and for the most part has been successful, we can not and will not try to impose our will on PC's sovereignty. It is quite simply not up to us. However, the fact that TPF is trying to impose THEIR will on what PC should or shouldn't get is ridiculous. We have made sure the overall reps are fair, and that they are. But it is not for TPF to chose who gets the money.

Their perpetual horn blowing in what this is concerned is not only an insult to all the alliances offering the reps, but to all the effort that has gone into trying to compromise, and trying to come up with fair terms. The only reason TPF is still engaged in war is because of their refusal to pay PC. It's not MK's or anyone's problem what TPF feels with regards to PC. Our business extended to making sure the terms were fair, and we have done that. That TPF doesn't want them because of their little grudge for PC is quite simply not our problem.

They can either take them, or leave them.

[Alterego]

The general trend is once terms expire the alliance who was under those terms is free to carry out their foreign affairs and internal affairs as they deem fit. Your argument here is asinine.

Ive never seen an alliance say you can attack our ally in this war when your reps are paid before a surrender. If I was PC I wouldnt be too happy about it, I would have concerns about what kind of future awaits me as a member of PC and who is going to do what to me after the war if this is how they (MK) act during the war.