Regarding peace terms with TPF

[Zombie Glaucon]

demanding peace, is not giving it. The ball is and has always rested with Karma, stop the war and you'll have peace, dont' and you won't

o/ TPF

I have to say that this is a very stupid sentiment. If Karma wants peace at all costs then they could have it, but if they want peace and aren't simple children (see previously mentioned sentiment) then they'll have to wait until TPF is willing to pay these reasonable reps.

It should not be asking too much of nation leaders to be able to see the bit of nuance that comes with a statement like "We want peace."

[This Charming Man]

I'm going to be brutally honest here.

1) I didn't read any of the 41 pages of this.

2) I don't understand why you would not accept peace, you've been handed your butts to yourselves in a war, and now you have been offered peace. Why would you not accept peace? Because you are too Honorable to accept these terms which you deem unfair? Or because you wish more suffering put upon your nations?

I suggest this TPF, you allow for a vote for surrender to your entire membership.

This way your alliance's nations will not suffer for your pride.

3) ???

4) Join RAD we're RAD.

[Atlas]

You should have known Tom Cruise is not in CN!

No

I didn't see you use any [ooc]ooc tags[/ooc] when talking about [ooc]Tom Cruise[/ooc].

Edit: [/sarcasm]

No

Back on track, now.

[Sileath]

I'm going to be brutally honest here.

1) I didn't read any of the 41 pages of this.

2) I don't understand why you would not accept peace, you've been handed your butts to yourselves in a war, and now you have been offered peace. Why would you not accept peace? Because you are too Honorable to accept these terms which you deem unfair? Or because you wish more suffering put upon your nations?

I suggest this TPF, you allow for a vote for surrender to your entire membership.

This way your alliance's nations will not suffer for your pride.

3) ???

4) Join RAD we're RAD.

1. Try to read before posting. Seriously.

2. What's honorable about paying reparation to a bunch of hypocrites?

What would a vote show? Let me tell you. It would show that all the TPF nations who have stuck it out in the three months of this war - surprise - stand by their leadership.

4. Shameless recruitment for the loss. lolpink.

o/ TPF

[This Charming Man]

1. Try to read before posting. Seriously.

2. What's honorable about paying reparation to a bunch of hypocrites?

What would a vote show? Let me tell you. It would show that all the TPF nations who have stuck it out in the three months of this war - surprise - stand by their leadership.

4. Shameless recruitment for the loss. lolpink.

o/ TPF

1) Stop flaming me. It's unbecoming of officers to act in such a way in front of the general membership.

2) What's honorableabababaabaababalablea

3) You missed three.

4) Try to stay on topic here boy. Atlas just warned us.

5) A deer a female deer.

6) If you are so inclined to boast that your membership would stand by you in your suicide mission then why not have a vote? Let's say... for the hell of it. Or are you not so sure?

You stole fizzy lifting drinks! You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and sterilized, so you get nothing! You lose! Good day sir!

[Lord Emares]

1) Stop flaming me. It's unbecoming of officers to act in such a way in front of the general membership.

Of course telling you to read the thread is a terrible thing it do? Also Sileath, an officer? What is he an Officer of may I ask?

2) What's honorableabababaabaababalablea

3) You missed three.

4) Try to stay on topic here boy. Atlas just warned us.

5) A deer a female deer.

Random comments combined with an admittance of not reading threads will ensure that you go far.

6) If you are so inclined to boast that your membership would stand by you in your suicide mission then why not have a vote? Let's say... for the hell of it. Or are you not so sure?

You stole fizzy lifting drinks! You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and sterilized, so you get nothing! You lose! Good day sir!

Sileath isn't in TPF...

[Sileath]

Sileath isn't in TPF...

[ooc]He probably saw that my TE AA is TPF, and is unaware that I am unaligned in SE[/ooc]

I find it humorous to see the Karma people endorsing draconian terms, when that was supposedly the CB anyway, due to past terms. So which is it, a new way of doing things, or your own greed? I think I have my answer.

[potato]

[ooc]He probably saw that my TE AA is TPF, and is unaware that I am unaligned in SE[/ooc]

I find it humorous to see the Karma people endorsing draconian terms, when that was supposedly the CB anyway, due to past terms. So which is it, a new way of doing things, or your own greed? I think I have my answer.

Do you even know what draconian means? Or is it another of your attempts to smear MK and its allies?

Edited July 31, 2009 by potato

[jerdge]

I've tried my best but I am seemingly unable to sympathize with TPF.

The terms offered don't seem undoable, and the fact that they would impact on TPF's economy for a while is the essential point in trying to impose them. It was clearly stated in the OP that these terms are designed to "punish" TPF for their prolonged, unconditional support of the Pacifican "evils", in the recent and less recent past. They haven't been presented in relation with the support that TPF gave to the NPO in the Karma War only. It's rather silly to cry that the amount asked would severely affect TPF, when that's the main purpose of the request.

Also, sorry, but most of the (on topic) discussions I read in this thread are flawed at their roots. The disagreement here is about the size of the reparations, not about their existence or their nature. It's about quantity, not quality. TPF is entitled to think that the quantity is too much, and that they would rather continue to mantain a state of war. "Karma" is entitled to think that the TPF's counter-offer is not enough, and that they would rather continue to mantain a state of war.

The payment of either of the proposed amounts (800M vs 1,200M) is possible without indefinitely destroying TPF's economy - the only difference is the duration of the economic consequences - thus none of the two is acting "dishonourably" in rejecting either offer, for the very simple reason that it isn't a matter of "principles" we're talking of; unless someone wishes to claim that some figures are "moral" while others are "immoral" by themselves, of course.

The best course of action for the two parties would be to continue to discuss the issue, not to stop the communication. At one point Karma will be satisfied by their own estimation of the amount of damage taken + reparations offered/accepted by TPF, and they will sign a Peace Treaty.

(All of this said, a White Peace would save us from several other extenuatingly long discussions... Deal? ... )

[Tygaland]

Do you even know what draconian means? Or is it another of your attempts to smear MK and its allies?

I think I can answer those for Sileath.

Question one, no. Question 2, yes.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Tygaland

[Atanatar]

1. Try to read before posting. Seriously.

2. What's honorable about paying reparation to a bunch of hypocrites?

What would a vote show? Let me tell you. It would show that all the TPF nations who have stuck it out in the three months of this war - surprise - stand by their leadership.

4. Shameless recruitment for the loss. lolpink.

o/ TPF

1. Nou

2. What's honorable about giving reps AT ALL to a !@#$%^& alliance formed from the miscarriage of Slayer's, Jbone's, and gangs failed attempt at stabbing Fark in the womb; an alliance created because they easily believed GOONS and NPO propaganda and trumped up charges, and willingly embraced said alliances programs to openly recruit from Fark (A sovereign AA) and direct the ill gotten recruits to the miscarriage alliance in an attempt to systemically deny the right to exist to then an alliance in excess of 600 members? An alliance that in BOTH incarnations (TPF and TF!) dragged Fark's name through the mud during their entire Holy War? Oh wait. I forgot. TPF stuck with NPO in this final beat down, so now we're all cool. And i'm damn glad TPF is being held down now. Now they can atone for both their betrayal of Fark and the UjP (Hint: They were planning on bailing LONG before certain UjP leadership went ape!@#$). For every day they are held down now, they are a step at cleansing cowardice from their soul.

4. lolFAILDUCK

Edited July 31, 2009 by Atanatar

[Tyranus]

The disagreement here is about the size of the reparations, not about their existence or their nature.

Weren't TPF whining how they won't pay anything to the Poison Clan? Yes, they then contradicted themselves, but I think that was the original issue. (Or something. Hell knows how many problems they have.)

[Haflinger]

The disagreement here is about the size of the reparations, not about their existence or their nature.

No, it's not jerdge. The disagreement is about who the reparations are to be paid to.

[jerdge]

No, it's not jerdge. The disagreement is about who the reparations are to be paid to.

I've spent a few minutes parsing all the last posts made by mhawk. Not only he insisted that his disagreement is about the amount of the reparations, but he also directly denied that the reparations that TPF is unwilling to pay are those asked on behalf of the PC:

I would hate to state that I feel the terms are unreasonable and that the member you posted is not government.

You choose not to accept those terms out of principle. We chose not to pay an unreasonable amount imo. OBM stated they are reasonable. I do not share that view. OBM is not a gov member.

Ratio wise these terms are higher than MK's when you count the NS from each alliance remaining.

I told you guys 800m. You want 1.3 billion from 24 nations capable of paying. Your "lenient" reps far exceed the "abhorent" reps ratio wise to Athens that you decry over and over and over.

1.3 billion and the inclusion of reps from PC's tech raids against our protectorates from 24 nations that have infra left is completely acceptable? How about 13 billion? I gave our number.

I think what he was saying (and I haven't read past the worst page, so if we've gotten past this, please ignore me) is that the extra money that Mhawk kept saying he wouldn't pay, is the money that would go to PC. I'm sure they'd be willing to pay the full reps if none of it went to PC.

This is not how I determined that figure at all. I took every nation that had 2k infra or more then multiplied it by maxed aid slots for a few cycles. You'll notice I mentioned, combined total. However it seems many in my alliance were outraged by the thought of yielding anything to pc.

In a much longer explanation posted a few days ago, again mhawk profusely argued about the total amount of reparations, not about giving part of them to PC:

<SNIP>

Here is what I told everyone, we will pay 800m combined, we feel that 1.3 billion (which is what was offered) -Azaghul had stated CCC voted to ask for MORE reps, not remove it. Later after we turned down the 1.3billion PC came and stated we would not be forced to pay for their tech raids against alliances, that portion would be dropped so the amount would be around 1.1 billion from 24 nations that have 2k infra or more.

<SNIP>

So here is the deal, we as an alliance feel asking the 1.3 billion from a 1m ns alliance is not acceptable, especially when a significant portion of the alliance is only here to fight the war (aka bama, imatt, ect). Our decision why this is unacceptable is not to say we are martyrs and which only for violence to continue, which is why we offered a 800m figure. (keeping in mind we ordered every nation into the war, including our banks to help out Molon Labe in late april.)

The thing these guys don't seem to get, is they can't take what we are not willing to give. We are willing to give up our infra, we are unwilling to surrender our principles. Our principles dictate we will not sign terms that demand 1.1b-1.3b (depending on if ccc wants reps as in one version or if we need to pay PC's reps for raiding alliances version) at our current size. Make no mistake, we wish nothing more than to end the war being waged against us, however that does not mean we will do so unconditionally. I feel this stance greatly angers Azaghul. If the difference between 800m and 1.3 billion is enough that mk and pc are willing to wage permanent warfare, then the burden will increasingly lie with them to explain the necessity of their greed, rather than to condemn us for choosing not to give into things we find unacceptable.

Finally, what you guys are probably mentioning is OBM's take on the issue:

<SNIP>

We agree that the amounts outlined by Azaghul in his post are within the range of reasonable. But we will not pay one cent to PoisonClan. We will not now, nor ever reward an alliance that attacked us by e-lawyering their way around a signed treaty.

<SNIP>

We agree that the terms are mostly reasoned, but that the inclusion of PC in being rewarded for breaking a treaty is reprehensible.

Unfortunately for your theory, Haflinger and Coaxl, OBM is not part of TPF's government, and in fact mhawk recently and repeatedly stressed that he isn't, and that his view on the reparations isn't shared by TPF's government.

His opinion is respectable, but it's not TPF's opinion.

(Now, naturally, I may be wrong. Feel free to point me to the documentation that proves me wrong! )

[Locke]

[ooc]He probably saw that my TE AA is TPF, and is unaware that I am unaligned in SE[/ooc]

I find it humorous to see the Karma people endorsing draconian terms, when that was supposedly the CB anyway, due to past terms. So which is it, a new way of doing things, or your own greed? I think I have my answer.

The terms aren't really draconian. Still an affront to TPF, but were there no personal differences with PC, more than doable, and in fact much more lenient than I actually expected.

[R3nowned]

(Now, naturally, I may be wrong. Feel free to point me to the documentation that proves me wrong! )

You are wrong. Ask him yourself when he gets back from vacation (as I did). The 800mil figure is what the reps would be without PC pretty much.

[BamaBuc]

I've spent a few minutes parsing all the last posts made by mhawk. Not only he insisted that his disagreement is about the amount of the reparations, but he also directly denied that the reparations that TPF is unwilling to pay are those asked on behalf of the PC:

This is not how I determined that figure at all. I took every nation that had 2k infra or more then multiplied it by maxed aid slots for a few cycles. You'll notice I mentioned, combined total. However it seems many in my alliance were outraged by the thought of yielding anything to pc.

In a much longer explanation posted a few days ago, again mhawk profusely argued about the total amount of reparations, not about giving part of them to PC:

Finally, what you guys are probably mentioning is OBM's take on the issue:

Unfortunately for your theory, Haflinger and Coaxl, OBM is not part of TPF's government, and in fact mhawk recently and repeatedly stressed that he isn't, and that his view on the reparations isn't shared by TPF's government.

His opinion is respectable, but it's not TPF's opinion.

(Now, naturally, I may be wrong. Feel free to point me to the documentation that proves me wrong! )

No, Jerdge. OBM is in TPF government, and if you'll read his other thread, you'll see that he does in fact speak for TPF.

-Bama

[janax]

(mhawk @ Jul 26 2009)

You choose not to accept those terms out of principle. We chose not to pay an unreasonable amount imo. OBM stated they are reasonable. I do not share that view. OBM is not a gov member

No clue where jerdge would get the idea that OBM isn't gov

OH WAIT

[BamaBuc]

No clue where jerdge would get the idea that OBM isn't gov

OH WAIT

I always thought Embers were gov. Guess not. Either way, he was apparently authorized to speak for TPF in the other thread.

-Bama

[potato]

I always thought Embers were gov. Guess not. Either way, he was apparently authorized to speak for TPF in the other thread.

-Bama

No, he wasn't, according to JBone.

[JBone]

No, he wasn't, according to JBone.

As OBM said before, the Ember position, held by he and I, is NOT an official part of government.

It's a bone they throw us old guys to keep us happy. We get access and can spout off now and then.

We have been around for a bit, keep our fingers on the pulse of the membership and pass that on to the brass.

TPFs own 2 man Vox Populi , if you will.

[potato]

As OBM said before, the Ember position, held by he and I, is NOT an official part of government.

It's a bone they throw us old guys to keep us happy. We get access and can spout off now and then.

We have been around for a bit, keep our fingers on the pulse of the membership and pass that on to the brass.

TPFs own 2 man Vox Populi , if you will.

That's what I understood from our little chat last time, yes.

[Un4Gvn1]

I always thought Embers were gov. Guess not. Either way, he was apparently authorized to speak for TPF in the other thread.

-Bama

Hi Bama.

OBM spoke up in the other thread because Mhawk was not available for several days -- other than a few comments mhawk made here on the OWF, he was not accessible to membership. Frankly, someone had to speak up after MK made the first public announcement and a couple of days of comments went by.

Jerdge is correct in summarizing Mhawk's comments regarding reps.

Mhawk and OBM are giving different reasons.

To whomever (from RAD) mentioned voting: TPF is a Dictatorship ... not a Democracy.

[Virillus]

Not always. But we haven't imposed any sort of terms since noCB nearly a year ago. MK has every right to be unhappy about that, but it was a year ago. It would be really petty if we came back a year from now and forced these alliances to pay us this money back. Then again, this is CN, people constantly astound me with how long their memories are in some cases and how short they are in others. Another thing that I think irked Mhawk is that he personally gave white peace to MK as leader of Elysium.

-Bama

You have an MADP with the NPO. You realize revenge is their thing right?

[NoFish]

You have an MADP with the NPO. You realize revenge is their thing right?

Well, no, according to their[NPO's] surrender terms, they don't.