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Anything below 20k NS or 3000 infra is insignificant IMO. They won't be aiding other members. They won't be making enough money to grow significantly either. Just tech raid material for some people who want to gather a tripleteam against them.

Also, I like the concept of "starving the enemy in their castle". I mean, this was even done in the medieval ages. It takes far less resources to just wait for your enemy to attack you. Why throw your soldiers against the walls of the castle when you can just wait until they starve to death?

Another thing. Ever heard of the Cold War? There were barely any military conflicts and not many peopel died. But one side eventually won. You don't have to fight with soldiers to win a war. You can just outgrow your enemy militarily and economically to prove your superiority.

We don't need to declare wars on your nations to win this war. And stop complaining about this - it is just another war tactic that has to be used to oppose the enemy that doesn't want to surrender (yet)

Edited by Sande
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Another thing. Ever heard of the Cold War? There were barely any military conflicts and not many peopel died. But one side eventually won. You don't have to fight with soldiers to win a war. You can just outgrow your enemy militarily and economically to prove your superiority.

We don't need to declare wars on your nations to win this war. And stop complaining about this - it is just another war tactic that has to be used to oppose the enemy that doesn't want to surrender (yet)

Don't see how this is really comparable considering you destroyed their alliance and are now "outgrowing" them by destroying them more if and when you feel like it.  So yeah, many "people" died in this conflict and are still dying, just not at a maximized rate since you are unable or unwilling to fill war slots. Your (Karma's) military supremacy has already been proven.

Anyways, yeah, I suppose not accepting peace terms or offering new terms is a war strategy.

Edited by Dr. Dan
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If the NPO has 0 soldiers, you can't get any money, tech or land from him. You can only bomb him with nukes. And he will nuke you back. Either way you lose more than him now.

I like it the way it is now. NPO is in peacemode, other alliances are outgrowing NPO, NPO is slowly dying due to the economic depression. I think we could keep it like that for a LONG time if we wanted to. NPO just has to surrender eventually because they will realise that this war is benefitting us either way.

We get reps OR we outgrow them due to not having to be in peace mode.

http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance...land%20Republic

You're not growing.

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Anything below 20k NS or 3000 infra is insignificant IMO. They won't be aiding other members. They won't be making enough money to grow significantly either. Just tech raid material for some people who want to gather a tripleteam against them.

Not quite true. NPO seems to be moving quite a bit of money around if you look at their aid screen - I would presume it comes from warchests.

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I don't quite understand why people are assuming NPO's economy is dead. As NoFish pointed out, there have been 295 aid transactions in the last month. Remember, the cost to buy up to 1000 infra is not much. The cost to buy a nuke or two a day and infra back to 1000 infra can be sustained if a nation with lots of tech is consistently getting a full round of aid shipments. Doubly so when they're not being nuked.

It seems like the way that NPO is being 'kept from rebuilding' is at the sacrifice of small NS nations, who are facing nukes from WRC nations. Frankly, that area of the war is a net loss no matter what is done.

The tools used against GOONS and FAN--eternal war--were only useful prior to the implementation of manhattan projects. Now, the way one can 'strangle' NPO's economy is to have people in the range of their banks being ever vigilant to move in groups of three to take down a bank nation when it comes out of peacemode to send aid.

You let the banks get back to PM, they continue to build up their funds and send them again. For the most part NPO's banking nations remain intact and in peacemode, and the efforts to catch these folks don't seem to have been reactive enough.

In this era, if you want to take down an enemy alliance, you've got to outplay them. Karma won the propaganda war, they won the military war, but unfortunately NPO didn't have to win the economy war; they just had to not lose. And they haven't lost, yet.

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The fact is that 'Karma' lost its stomach for this war a long time ago. In my opinion they have been intentionally allowing NPO nations to slip into peace mode in order to avoid damaging their own nations.

This is the only possibility that really makes sense, considering that so many of those now in peace mode were properly staggered once-upon-a-time.

The other possibility is that Karma's military command is the most inept in the history of CN.

I opt for the (marginally) less-embarrassing option: lack of will.

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Kingzog, that's not quite fair.

Karma isn't one alliance with a central military command. When you have a coalition of alliances facing one enemy, it's pretty natural who's going to be more organized. Liquid did a pretty amazing job organizing them as well as he did.

I'd say the problem at it's core is that when you have five different alliances with people who are in range to take down a bank that popped out of peacemode, it's likely that they'll try to confer to figure out who is best capable of fighting them--who has the most tech, best warchest, etc.

In one alliance, it's easy to figure that out, since most folks check in and everyone already has all that info available. Inter-alliance coordination requires forum posts or IRC chatter which takes time. If things move too slowly, the nation escapes to peacemode. People have lives and things can move slowly. If the alliances in question make the move unilaterally against a target, they sometimes might find themselves getting 'snipered'--which is to say, counter-attacked by someone else in NPO with lots of tech and low infra waiting to hit whoever hit that bank. You pay the price for jumping without preparing, and when preparations involve multiple information networks, it just takes time to coordinate.

I don't chalk it up to cowardice. I chalk it up to the nature of a coalition.

The aid transactions are mostly trying to get people out of bill lock guys, you beat up our economy pretty good too.

We've admitted defeat.

James, I'm a little skeptical of that being the case across the board (although I would imagine it mostly is true).

http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp...&Extended=1

Just as a single example as I don't really have the opportunity to examine each major aid screen in detail, I notice multiple aid packages listed as being directly aimed at allowing low-infra nations to continue to nuke. As I had said, if you're getting full or even mostly full aid packages every 10 days, with a manhattan project you can nuke enemy nations indefinitely. Especially as your tech dwindles and you fight enemies with no nukes at all.

Edited by Kiss Goodbye
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Kiss Goodbye,

The only banker I know of who has come out of peace mode is Woody, who is quitting CN and effectively going bank-rogue (sending out aid and not expecting to survive/not caring if he does either).

The people getting aid are mostly in bill lock or close to it.

Edited by James Dahl
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Kiss Goodbye,

The only banker I know of who has come out of peace mode is Woody, who is quitting CN and effectively going bank-rogue (sending out aid and not expecting to survive/not caring if he does either).

In that case, I'd imagine you've got quite a few non-bank nations with sufficient warchests to be sending out regular aid packages. I do believe you when you say that you've kept your main banks in PM consistently. Regardless, there's definitely plenty of money being moved around. It just might be people paying out from their warchests rather than from banks. It's not expensive to support a low-infra nation's nuke spree, either way.

I do believe you when you say that most of those receiving aid are in or are nearly in bill lock. It's just that at their level, a 3m package or two does more than bring you out of bill lock, it makes you a viable threat once again.

Edited by Kiss Goodbye
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It probably means they just came out of peace mode and there hasn't been enough time to attack them yet. Though it could also be that the nations you are talking about are nuclear armed 10-15k nations with stacks of wonders and everyone in their range is terrified of them.

Which means certain alliances that are gung ho on strangling the NPO for a while yet seem to not be the ones having to sacrifice their lower nations to get the last few down to ZI. That causes splits as you can see how some alliances would love this set up and are actively pushing to make sure the war continues while on the other hand most of the others realize the situation is going to cause more internal problems for Karma then it is worth.

If the NPO has 0 soldiers, you can't get any money, tech or land from him. You can only bomb him with nukes. And he will nuke you back. Either way you lose more than him now.

I like it the way it is now. NPO is in peacemode, other alliances are outgrowing NPO, NPO is slowly dying due to the economic depression. I think we could keep it like that for a LONG time if we wanted to. NPO just has to surrender eventually because they will realise that this war is benefitting us either way.

We get reps OR we outgrow them due to not having to be in peace mode.

A pretty simplified view of the situation. Basically you are putting on blinders so you only see how this affects the NPO. It is having quite a nasty affect at the top of Karma too but you wouldn't dare say that would you?

As stated, they talk about NPO propaganda while they purposefully only tell half of the story to everyone.

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In that case, I'd imagine you've got quite a few non-bank nations with sufficient warchests to be sending out regular aid packages. I do believe you when you say that you've kept your main banks in PM consistently. Regardless, there's definitely plenty of money being moved around. It just might be people paying out from their warchests rather than from banks. It's not expensive to support a low-infra nation's nuke spree, either way.

I do believe you when you say that most of those receiving aid are in or are nearly in bill lock. It's just that at their level, a 3m package or two does more than bring you out of bill lock, it makes you a viable threat once again.

Some NPO nations are 10 million dollars in the hole.

Many are facing the difficult choice of dumping improvements/wonders since, contrary to what you are saying, aid is NOT readily available.

We are doing our best to help our friends in this time, and the money we are sending is largely what's left of our warchests or whatever cash we happen to have. I had a bit of money left over from when Woody aided me and I sent it all out to someone in bill lock, but I certainly don't earn millions a day. My post-bill income is about $5000.

Edited by James Dahl
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As stated, they talk about NPO propaganda while they purposefully only tell half of the story to everyone.

I believe Sande was speaking about the Karma side growing, as a whole.

As for GR, we started the war with about 200 members. Several have since disappeared/deserted, started their own alliances, or moved on to support other alliances (either nuetral or on the Karma side), or stopped playing the game.

I wouldn't be so bold or arrogant as to say that GR is untouched from this conflict. We have suffered great loses, and will continue to assist our allies... Some alliances have suffered less than others, and I think you'll find at least a few alliances fighting for the Karma side that have actually grown quite a bit.

edit: for clarification

Edited by Gn0xious Jr
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As stated, they talk about NPO propaganda while they purposefully only tell half of the story to everyone.

I believe Sande was speaking about the Karma side growing, as a whole.

As for GR, we started the war with about 200 members. Several have since disappeared/deserted, started their own alliances, or moved on to support other alliances (either nuetral or on the Karma side), or stopped playing the game.

I wouldn't be so bold or arrogant as to say that GR is untouched from this conflict. We have suffered great loses, and will continue to assist our allies... Some alliances have suffered less than others, and I think you'll find at least a few alliances fighting for the Karma side that have actually grown quite a bit.

edit: for clarification

The one thing NPO has on Karma is cohesion. Those differences between the alliances you speak of will over time cause tensions depending upon which line of thinking the leaders of such alliances go with. There will come a time, possibly soon or possibly not so soon, when the great threat perceived by NPO begins to be shifted onto others. That is just inevitable. Everyone always points out whom they think is the greatest threat to themselves. It is not propaganda to say that the natural course of events is bound to happen. There might be some folks who would like to stuff up the war so that NPO remains that great threat in the minds of people for as long as possible but it is bound to happen sooner or later that such will fade. When that fades, what do folks want their alliance to be remembered by when the focus of attention is no longer about the NPO?

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Between 10k and 15k Sparta alone has 51 nations...

Yup. Not nearly enough to fill an entire nation's slot. Now if they had three times as many I KNOW that Sparta could show you what they're capable of. Unfortunately, the Spartan (and Karma) war machine is stretched to its limit. But they did get a whole one war on Moo. That has to count for something, right?

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Yup. Not nearly enough to fill an entire nation's slot. Now if they had three times as many I KNOW that Sparta could show you what they're capable of. Unfortunately, the Spartan (and Karma) war machine is stretched to its limit. But they did get a whole one war on Moo. That has to count for something, right?

You are mistaken RV. They need 6x more to hit that magic 300 number.

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Another thing. Ever heard of the Cold War? There were barely any military conflicts and not many peopel died.

Korea or Vietnam? Afghanistan? May not have been any direct conflicts between NATO/Warsaw pact, but there were plenty of dead bodies.

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Korea or Vietnam? Afghanistan? May not have been any direct conflicts between NATO/Warsaw pact, but there were plenty of dead bodies.

Its funny how people think that the whole story is that which they are told and that there is never more to the story.

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Anyway, I found no NPO nations out of peace mode above 13k NS or so. I will say though, for being at war with 18 alliances... I am surprised how many people around 10 - 14k NS have only a single war or so.

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Anyway, I found no NPO nations out of peace mode above 13k NS or so. I will say though, for being at war with 18 alliances... I am surprised how many people around 10 - 14k NS have only a single war or so.

Sometimes, a leader must try to change and revert a deficiency. Sometimes a leader must understand such and instead of trying to fight the current, that leader must find a way to work With the current.

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To be fair, there's a good reason for only one nation at a time to be warring someone in that NS range--the goal is to match them with someone who can keep them in nuclear anarchy, or at least who can send a daily defeat alert as they'll be turtling and only firing nukes. More than one person just means extra damage taken from nukes for no extra damage given (except infra damage from air attacks, which is no longer relevant for a nation whose NS is almost all tech and nukes). So long as they get staggered before the single war expires they can be kept from being able to collect.

Unfortunately, it's easy to screw such a system up, which leads to them escaping to peacemode.

Edited by Kiss Goodbye
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To be fair, there's a good reason for only one nation at a time to be warring someone in that NS range--the goal is to match them with someone who can keep them in nuclear anarchy, or at least who can send a daily defeat alert as they'll be turtling and only firing nukes. More than one person just means extra damage taken from nukes for no extra damage given (except infra damage from air attacks, which is no longer relevant for a nation whose NS is almost all tech and nukes). So long as they get staggered before the single war expires they can be kept from being able to collect.

That's not what's going on with NPO. That's what was done to Valhalla.

Check the link in my sig; it shows Bakunin's miraculous escape.

Edited by Haflinger
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To be fair, there's a good reason for only one nation at a time to be warring someone in that NS range--the goal is to match them with someone who can keep them in nuclear anarchy, or at least who can send a daily defeat alert as they'll be turtling and only firing nukes. More than one person just means extra damage taken from nukes for no extra damage given (except infra damage from air attacks, which is no longer relevant for a nation whose NS is almost all tech and nukes). So long as they get staggered before the single war expires they can be kept from being able to collect.

Unfortunately, it's easy to screw such a system up, which leads to them escaping to peacemode.

Yeah, but that doesn't work so well when there's one person without nukes fighting a guy with nukes.

Anyway, there are 58 NPO nations in Peace Mode with 25k + NS...

Assuming each of those nations sent 6 x 3 Million aid packages they could more more than 1 trillion dollars every 10 days. Just interesting. I mean, not all of those are banks but I would assume most are. I just find it interesting because NPO has certainly preserved a serious core.

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