HHAYD Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1283626044' post='2441591'] If it takes up a slot, I don't see why not. The nation being hacked can still pursue the hackers if caught, etc, so it's not like there are zero consequences for the spy roll. [b]The only issue that people could claim is similar to the "terrorist" in that the nation itself can't receive consequences.[/b] [/quote] Actually, they can DoW on the offending country by using the CB of, [quote]replacing the "incompetent" government with a more "competent" one [i]peacefully[/i][/quote]. See GLP-USA War. USA and their masses of allies DoWed on GLP even though they clearly knew the terrorist organization that arranged the attacks [i]wanted[/i] both sides to murder each other. Edited September 4, 2010 by HHAYD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 [quote name='Generalissimo' timestamp='1283624777' post='2441574'] Maybe, it depends on answers to the following questions Are your citizen hackers filling your spy slots? Do citizen hackers constitute the entirety of your intelligence agencies? What percentages of your spy slots do citizen hackers currently occupy? Do citizen hackers have regular access to intelligence infrastructure, both improvements and/or wonders? [/quote] Because hackers can only succeed if they have access to government intelligence systems? If only that were true... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generalissimo Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 [quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1283626644' post='2441602']Because hackers can only succeed if they have access to government intelligence systems? If only that were true...[/quote]If the hackers don't have those advantages, the role could not include modifiers from intelligence infrastructure. Also if hackers are part of spy slots other intelligence operatives must removed for the duration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 [quote name='Generalissimo' timestamp='1283627119' post='2441610'] If the hackers don't have those advantages, the role could not include modifiers from intelligence infrastructure. Also if hackers are part of spy slots other intelligence operatives must removed for the duration. [/quote] Cite me a rule or precedent where it says your ig intelligence infrastructure is limiting to ic spy operations and ig spies carry over to ic fully? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generalissimo Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1283627210' post='2441614']Cite me a rule or precedent where it says your ig intelligence infrastructure is limiting to ic spy operations and ig spies carry over to ic fully?[/quote]Not quite, but at the very least hackers could not overlap with spys. I cite separations of soldiers and civilians as precedent. Edited September 4, 2010 by Generalissimo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 [quote name='Generalissimo' timestamp='1283627352' post='2441615'] Not quite, but at the very least hackers could not overlap with spys. I cite separations of soldiers and civilians as precedent. [/quote] That hardly fits the situation and even if it did would support my point more as Intelligence agents tend to be part of a civilian institution and thus is common sense and not ig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generalissimo Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1283627567' post='2441616']That hardly fits the situation and even if it did would support my point more as Intelligence agents tend to be part of a civilian institution and thus is common sense and not ig.[/quote]Yes, but having both Hackers and Spys together at the same time without allocating slots specifically for either group effectively doubles the number of fieldable intelligence assets a country has access to, even when a nation doesn’t have numbers to support that deployment. Edited September 4, 2010 by Generalissimo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voodoo Nova Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 [quote name='Generalissimo' timestamp='1283627825' post='2441622'] Yes, but having both Hackers and Spys together at the same time without allocating slots specifically for either group effectively doubles the number of fieldable intelligence assets a country has access to, even when a nation doesn’t have numbers to support that deployment. [/quote] Each nation has only two slots to use for spy rolls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 [quote name='iKrolm' timestamp='1283624171' post='2441563'] Can you request a spy roll for non-government actions? [/quote] This is a tactic I got from IRL actually: http://books.google.com/books?id=ip9bVYm64vQC&pg=PA182&lpg=PA182&dq=cyberwarfare+attacks+from+patriotic+chinese+citizens&source=bl&ots=zPDNzyBlRQ&sig=H2E395mM61sNsJa8sld3DXx9IhE&hl=en&ei=D6OCTJD7BYOClAeFzcSMDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 Either way it should still consume one of Triyun's spy slots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voodoo Nova Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Subtleknifewielder' timestamp='1283635045' post='2441715'] Either way it should still consume one of Triyun's spy slots. [/quote] No one is saying otherwise. Edited September 4, 2010 by Voodoo Nova Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthey Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 (edited) [quote name='iKrolm' timestamp='1283624171' post='2441563'] Can you request a spy roll for non-government actions? [/quote] It has been allowed several times. (terrorist groups) It depends on how you look at the nation itself. A hard core nation rper would say no, because we are rping 'nations'. A character Rper would be ambivalent as their focus isn't on some technical ic legal sanction but on the thoughts and motivations of various characters, a hybrid such as myself would include the population in the 'nation'. Of course personally I would probably connect it to my government through some sort of manipulation, but I don't think that is required. And yes it should be deducted from one of triyun's two daily spy rolls but I don't think anyone is disputing that. The reason why it consumes those rolls is you are doing something in someone else's nation without their permission which requires a roll. The only exception to this is a guerrilla war which is not governed by spy rolls but which can only take place following a conventional war, and only if there has been no break in continuity (an activity wipe, an extended stint of time between collapse and the beginning of the insurgency, with no reasonable explanation, or the establishment of another nation). Edited September 4, 2010 by iamthey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Enema Posted September 5, 2010 Report Share Posted September 5, 2010 God please tell me the whole Mudd War Spy Spam garbage has been done away with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthey Posted September 5, 2010 Report Share Posted September 5, 2010 [quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1283646535' post='2441928'] God please tell me the whole Mudd War Spy Spam garbage has been done away with. [/quote] It has, insurgency is and should be conducted without spy rolls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executive Minister Posted September 6, 2010 Report Share Posted September 6, 2010 So I take it no one else has an issue with the Apocalypse-class, or any other element of my navy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executive Minister Posted November 16, 2010 Report Share Posted November 16, 2010 (edited) EDIT: OH WOW, WRONG THREAD. Edited November 16, 2010 by Executive Minister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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