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Treaty Cancellation


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You are correct. Carter did exist when the coup occured.

EDIT: clarity

OOC: a moderator made the announcement that he had a 100% warning level before the thread was posted it is my understanding that there can be a delay from when a person reaches a ban level to when they are banned. He was out of the game before Nintenderek made his thread about taking over fire.

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VE signed a treaty with FIRE, thinking that FIRE was like the Syndicate, because most of FIRE, when treaty was signed, came from the Syndicate. Turns out FIRE is something completely different. Therefore the treaty was cancelled.

Also, FIRE - you had a one person government, so when you changed that one person, you changed the entire government.

This is just a cancellation. We have no ill will towards FIRE. No matter how much VE gets verbally attacked here, we aren't using verbal attacks against FIRE, but merely explaining the cancellation.

Edited by Ilya Murometz
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VE signed a treaty with FIRE, thinking that FIRE was like the Syndicate, because most of FIRE, when treaty was signed, came from the Syndicate. Turns out FIRE is something completely different. Therefore the treaty was cancelled.

Also, FIRE - you had a one person government, so when you changed that one person, you changed the entire government.

This is just a cancellation. We have no ill will towards FIRE. No matter how much VE gets verbally attacked here, we aren't using verbal attacks against FIRE, but merely explaining the cancellation.

We did not have a one person government. Although only one government position was written into the charter, it gave him the power to create others, of which he did. All those other positions are staying the same. All the government is staying the same. The only difference are the regents being promoted to Fire Lords to make a tri and Carter not being a part of it.

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OOC: a moderator made the announcement that he had a 100% warning level before the thread was posted it is my understanding that there can be a delay from when a person reaches a ban level to when they are banned. He was out of the game before Nintenderek made his thread about taking over fire.

I stand corrected as far as the order of posts go. I still contend the petition was a step in the coup.

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We did not have a one person government. Although only one government position was written into the charter, it gave him the power to create others, of which he did. All those other positions are staying the same. All the government is staying the same. The only difference are the regents being promoted to Fire Lords to make a tri and Carter not being a part of it.

I think our views differ, because, the bolded part, I view that as a one person government. The charter establishes the government. The charter had only one government position. When that person is gone, the government is changed.

Edited by Ilya Murometz
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Semantics at this point.

Anyways, I believe FIRE could be one of the more interesting alliances in the next 18 months if they can hang on and make it work. I would like to see VE and FIRE get to know each other a little bit better and let's see what happens.

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you guys are assuming that carter got couped and thats right when this discussion started, and that we dropped them right there. that is not correct, there were other reasons for the cancellation, notably the realm merge got a lot of questions flying about whether we wanted this treaty or not, as the forming of the realm involved deserters from ve. if fire was going to merge with the realm without gauging our opinion on it first, and that they were going to appoint a mofa who was a deserter from our alliance as well, then the opinion of myself and others is how can we trust them with a high level defense treaty, if some of their members have a history of deserting us in wartime.

i like some people in fire, and i respect them very much and hope we can be friends. maybe down the road a defense treaty will be an option, but it is of my opinion that their basically entirely revamped alliance needs to prove themselves before we can talk of a defense treaty again.

some people in this thread question our ability as allies. well to that ill say look at the karma war, and how we've treated our allies there. the syndicate is not the same alliance as fire, and therefore it was hard to keep maintaining this high level treaty with them.

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FIRE coups Carter best move you guys have made

carter stay gone bud, CN is a better place without you.

Hey that is not cool. Carter is already gone and for most of the time I knew him I liked him. Please learn not to troll. In regards to the cancellation it was very expected.

O/ VE

O/ FIRE

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you guys are assuming that carter got couped and thats right when this discussion started, and that we dropped them right there. that is not correct, there were other reasons for the cancellation, notably the realm merge got a lot of questions flying about whether we wanted this treaty or not, as the forming of the realm involved deserters from ve. if fire was going to merge with the realm without gauging our opinion on it first, and that they were going to appoint a mofa who was a deserter from our alliance as well, then the opinion of myself and others is how can we trust them with a high level defense treaty, if some of their members have a history of deserting us in wartime.

This was one of my major concerns as well, And I have made it known several times.

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Honestly Random, I don't know if you're still bitter over us dropping NpO (which if anything I would've done faster considering the circumstances, but that's another discussion) but canceling treaties is rare for us. Such things are not done lightly, and never have been.

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VE has been a great asset and a good protectorate of ours. I support their decision here and being member of one of the alliances caught up in the FIRE issue I praise VE for their stance.

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you guys are assuming that carter got couped and thats right when this discussion started, and that we dropped them right there. that is not correct, there were other reasons for the cancellation, notably the realm merge got a lot of questions flying about whether we wanted this treaty or not, as the forming of the realm involved deserters from ve. if fire was going to merge with the realm without gauging our opinion on it first, and that they were going to appoint a mofa who was a deserter from our alliance as well, then the opinion of myself and others is how can we trust them with a high level defense treaty, if some of their members have a history of deserting us in wartime.

Are you seriously still holding a grudge over that? I would understand if VE was about to lose that war, but I think everyone knew from the second that war began who was going to win and who is currently winning. The word deserters is way overused in today's CN.

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Are you seriously still holding a grudge over that? I would understand if VE was about to lose that war, but I think everyone knew from the second that war began who was going to win and who is currently winning. The word deserters is way overused in today's CN.

Desertion: the abandonment without consent or legal justification of a person, post, or relationship and the associated duties and obligations

Seems legit to me.

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Are you seriously still holding a grudge over that? I would understand if VE was about to lose that war, but I think everyone knew from the second that war began who was going to win and who is currently winning. The word deserters is way overused in today's CN.

it didn't help any that most of the deserters in this situation didn't even bother to post a resignation.

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it didn't help any that most of the deserters in this situation didn't even bother to post a resignation.

While I can understand being angry about that (Someone in FIRE recently did that so I do completely understand), I don't understand why you would hold it against an entire alliance, for the actions of a few.

For example, an ex member of FIRE joined NSO the other day. He didn't post his resignation until today. Am I mad at the individual member? A little bit. Am I mad at NSO? Not really.

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While I can understand being angry about that (Someone in FIRE recently did that so I do completely understand), I don't understand why you would hold it against an entire alliance, for the actions of a few.

For example, an ex member of FIRE joined NSO the other day. He didn't post his resignation until today. Am I mad at the individual member? A little bit. Am I mad at NSO? Not really.

it doesn't help when 1 of the people who didn't post a resignation is now in government.

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it doesn't help when 1 of the people who didn't post a resignation is now in government.

I am not aware of who that person is, however I'm sure they've proved their worth and why they are in government. There's no need to hold a grudge for one little mistake, especially involving a completely different alliance at the time, especially one that's almost two months old, isn't it?

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I am not aware of who that person is, however I'm sure they've proved their worth and why they are in government. There's no need to hold a grudge for one little mistake, especially involving a completely different alliance at the time, especially one that's almost two months old, isn't it?

when that person makes up 1/3rd of the new government of FIRE it kind of does matter.

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when that person makes up 1/3rd of the new government of FIRE it kind of does matter.

First off, I explained the government thing earlier. There's more then three members of government, no matter what the charter says. Your ignorance is overwhelming.

Secondly, I'm still not quite sure which member your talking about (I think I might know though) and to be honest, every Fire Lord deserves the position they have. So, if that's the reason you canceled, I'm quite glad we aren't allies.

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Nintenderek, you're taking this personally and you shouldn't. Let's establish a good base and see if a true friendship develops.

I personally think a treaty between FIRE and VE would be a good thing if the treaty was more than just words on paper. Let's work towards this.

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Nintenderek, you're taking this personally and you shouldn't. Let's establish a good base and see if a true friendship develops.

I personally think a treaty between FIRE and VE would be a good thing if the treaty was more than just words on paper. Let's work towards this.

I'm not taking the cancellation for the treaty personally. I'm taking the reasons for it personally. I'm all for what you stated, however I'm against some of your other reasons and statements stated in this thread, including these

Any kindof questionable leadership, regardless of who it is makes a fairly bad imprint on ones Alliance.

And considering the gravity of who it was and everything thereof, we had to make the right call and I support our Parliament fully on this decision and have been for awhile now.

Also, FIRE - you had a one person government, so when you changed that one person, you changed the entire government.
you guys are assuming that carter got couped and thats right when this discussion started, and that we dropped them right there. that is not correct, there were other reasons for the cancellation, notably the realm merge got a lot of questions flying about whether we wanted this treaty or not, as the forming of the realm involved deserters from ve. if fire was going to merge with the realm without gauging our opinion on it first, and that they were going to appoint a mofa who was a deserter from our alliance as well, then the opinion of myself and others is how can we trust them with a high level defense treaty, if some of their members have a history of deserting us in wartime.
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I'm not taking the cancellation for the treaty personally. I'm taking the reasons for it personally. I'm all for what you stated, however I'm against some of your other reasons and statements stated in this thread, including these

Do you blame us for being hesitant, I mean lets get serious here. If you had those that deserted your Alliance during War Time operations and jumped into another one...wouldn't you be a little aggravated that this was going on and that they deliberately left your Alliance on bad terms? I won't name names here or anything but there were several who left and that in itself does not go right with me at all.

You know what they did with Deserters during the Civil War. They were Shot.

Again let me just clarify that this is my own beliefs here nor do they reflect on our Alliance as a whole.

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You know what they did with Deserters during the Civil War. They were Shot.

OOC: They still are ;)

Let's keep in mind that for many alliances (idk how VE does things), desertion is a ZI-able offense. It also seems reasonable to me that an alliance would have misgivings about a deserter leading another alliance, especially if allied to deserted alliance.

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