Poll: Recruiting from other alliances

[KainIIIC]

Yes. Absolutely.

This is something that was accepted in the past in CN, accepted in different games and formats; bar the Hyper-sovereignty platform embraced by NPO, and the Hegemony's promotion of refusal to tolerate recruitment, and using anything as a justification for war, they promoted this "No Poaching" meme. Under more normal circumstances, I think that "poaching members" is perfectly okay. It even can become a competition among rival alliances, against eachother or groups of eachother, to see who can morally "win over" more members. It would just become another fair-play aspect of the game. And if the alliance being recruited really has a problem with it, they would actually respond to it with teeth, either with reparations, real policy or political leadership change (resignations?), or actual war. I see no problem with selective, targeted recruitment efforts. However, that said, I don't believe in Spam. Recruitment letters should only be done once and on a relatively infrequent basis.

[pericles8th]

There IS a "broken poll option" as in the poll is "broke"

[Trout]

If the member is easily recruited off then they weren't as loyal to the alliance or your alliance sucks.

[New Frontier]

That hat doesn't suit you, Cheyenne.

Please tell me, then, what hat does suit me?

After all, we've been so close for so long.

[Wa Mu]

While I believe poaching is disrespectful, I don't find anything wrong exactly, if that is possible. So, I guess, while I don't support such action, I wouldn't say no to it either.

[Ivan Moldavi]

So many sheep.

God I wish I was a wolf sometimes...oh wait.

[V The King]

While I believe poaching is disrespectful, I don't find anything wrong exactly, if that is possible. So, I guess, while I don't support such action, I wouldn't say no to it either.

I share my views with this man.

I mean, it's just not cool to bug someone else's members to join their alliances (particularly when dissing their current one in the process), it's annoying as hell to have an outsider try to guess the condition of your alliance and how you're faring within it, but... if someone in your alliance falls for a recruitment message, then uh, the "victim alliance" is better off without him... and the member might be just as useless in the "poaching alliance".

[Fireandthepassion]

I share my views with this man.

I mean, it's just not cool to bug someone else's members to join their alliances (particularly when dissing their current one in the process), it's annoying as hell to have an outsider try to guess the condition of your alliance and how you're faring within it, but... if someone in your alliance falls for a recruitment message, then uh, the "victim alliance" is better off without him... and the member might be just as useless in the "poaching alliance".

That's the thing I don't get about this whole situation. Why are people saying NSO was disrespecting alliances? They were [ooc]roleplaying their charaters[/ooc]. The Sith are evil. The Sith should be degrading to bring out the passion which as most of should know starts to lure a person to the dark-side. It's who they are. Do I agree with their methods personally? No, but I'm not going to tell people to stop doing it because it's mean.

Also voted sometimes. It's not cool to try to recruit from your allies.

/ninja edit

I agree with the sentiment that if someone is going to leave because a stranger than your alliance as whole is better off.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Fireandthepassion

[Wa Mu]

That's the thing I don't get about this whole situation. Why are people saying NSO was disrespecting alliances? They were [ooc]roleplaying their charaters[/ooc]. The Sith are evil. The Sith should be degrading to bring out the passion which as most of should know starts to lure a person to the dark-side. It's who they are. Do I agree with their methods personally? No, but I'm not going to tell people to stop doing it because it's mean.

Also voted sometimes. It's not cool to try to recruit from your allies.

/ninja edit

I agree with the sentiment that if someone is going to leave because a stranger than your alliance as whole is better off.

Just because someone is evil doesn't mean he or she can't be disrespectful. I just find this sort of action not proper and that's that.

[Fireandthepassion]

Just because someone is evil doesn't mean he or she can't be disrespectful. I just find this sort of action not proper and that's that.

So everyone has to be civil when recruiting from other alliances?

Doppelganger, and I suppose NSO as a whole, "viewed" the neutral menaces as inferior for their stance on politics and war. I think had I been Doppelganger I would have naturally have done the same thing especially considering what being a Sith should entail. It should almost be part of the naturalness of being a Sith when doing something that is considered immoral that there should be statements that come off as condescending. Is it tasteful and respectful? No, but in the situation where something is considered immoral by nature it's not going to be executed in an honorable way no matter what. It's viewed as immoral by those that say it's immoral, and will naturally chastise NSO for what happened. Those that go meh whatever wont view it as immoral, but have to concede the point that what was said in a tiny tiny fraction of the message as being not nice.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Fireandthepassion

[HHAYD]

Which is why the messages that were sent out by NSO didn't target nations below 4k.

So basically NSO was aiming for other alliances mid/large members, worse than the small members.

Plus, NSO purposely bashed the neutral alliances and ranted about how those alliances were weak because they weren't in the Karma War in their recruitment messages. That is another major insult to the alliances that NSO attempted to poach.

[Tomcat]

I can see why alliances would not take kindly to somebody mass sending recruitment messages to their members but it's impossible to say whether or not it constitutes as an aggressive act without looking at the context of the situation.

Now, if somebody were to send mass PMs to an alliance membership calling their alliance a number of insulting things and then daring them to do something about it, then I can certainly see how that can be an aggressive move.

[Fireandthepassion]

So basically NSO was aiming for other alliances mid/large members, worse than the small members.

Plus, NSO purposely bashed the neutral alliances and ranted about how those alliances were weak because they weren't in the Karma War in their recruitment messages. That is another major insult to the alliances that NSO attempted to poach.

Yes because the Karma War has to do with everything when it came to condescending statement in the recruitment messages because you know Ivan Moldavi, a lot of old rulers in NSO, and at least one of the neutral menaces have never been to war right?

[Wa Mu]

So everyone has to be civil when recruiting from other alliances?

Doppelganger, and I suppose NSO as a whole, "viewed" the neutral menaces as inferior for their stance on politics and war. I think had I been Doppelganger I would have naturally have done the same thing especially considering what being a Sith should entail. It should almost be part of the naturalness of being a Sith when doing something that is considered immoral that there should be statements that come off as condescending. Is it tasteful and respectful? No, but in the situation where something is considered immoral by nature it's not going to be executed in an honorable way no matter what. It's viewed as immoral by those that say it's immoral, and will naturally chastise NSO for what happened. Those that go meh whatever wont view it as immoral, but have to concede the point that what was said in a tiny tiny fraction of the message as being not nice.

I don't see why anyone wouldn't be civil when recruiting, but I don't know how that pertains to anything at all.

OK, so a Sith is evil. Your point? Go ahead and recruit. I don't care if you do it. I just think that it is rude to recruit from other alliances. So the Sith are evil. Got it.

[HHAYD]

I don't see why anyone wouldn't be civil when recruiting, but I don't know how that pertains to anything at all.

OK, so a Sith is evil. Your point? Go ahead and recruit. I don't care if you do it. I just think that it is rude to recruit from other alliances. So the Sith are evil. Got it.

Its even more rude when you bash and taunt them while poaching.

[Fireandthepassion]

I don't see why anyone wouldn't be civil when recruiting, but I don't know how that pertains to anything at all.

OK, so a Sith is evil. Your point? Go ahead and recruit. I don't care if you do it. I just think that it is rude to recruit from other alliances. So the Sith are evil. Got it.

You're doing something that is considered by many to be immoral. You're already doing something that is considered wrong you may as well throw some mud while you're at it especially if it's viewed by nearly the whole alliance that neutrality and peace is a lie.

As it was stated already there is a clear difference between recruiting from another alliance and unaligned. Which recruiting unaligned is a-ok and aligned is bad. If you truly wish for a person wavering on leaving the alliance you should put down that alliance as much as possible to make yours seem that much better in comparison, or it could potentially reaffirm the desire for the nation to prove the person wrong by sticking to the alliance while tossing some mud back at the person trying to recruit from the alliance for some fun to defend the dignity of the alliance.

Either way in the Sith's eyes they got a response so they've only created a win-win scenario in their eyes. They upset the neutral menaces by hitting their emotions, and they're getting some PR out of this as any kind of publicity is still attention to NSO.

[Heft]

So basically NSO was aiming for other alliances mid/large members, worse than the small members.

Plus, NSO purposely bashed the neutral alliances and ranted about how those alliances were weak because they weren't in the Karma War in their recruitment messages. That is another major insult to the alliances that NSO attempted to poach.

We did call them weak, but we did not "rant" and we never mentioned the Karma War in any way. That would be very odd seeing as how we were never part of Karma ourselves.

[Ragashingo]

I think its alright to recruit members from an alliance. I was quite honored when someone attempted to recruit me away from the STA to a new alliance he was starting up for instance. Thats the idea thing to do, ask specific people that you respect to join your alliance. But even mass recruitment isn't something to cause an issue over. The only problem I see at all with recruiting from an alliance is that it would get annoying if everyone did it all the time.

[Sal Paradise]

Please tell me, then, what hat does suit me?

Something a little less tight, doesn't impede blood flow to the brain.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Sal Paradise

[von Metternich]

Unless its a 1 man alliance, its wrong. However, if you know the person in real life, then you may invite that person. Its that simple.

edit: Thats weird. We have 99 votes for 'No', but only 77 for 'None (broken poll option)'. I expected them to be the same.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Famzy

[In Tyler We Trust]

I'd accept it under some circumstances. If there is a pre-existing relationship between nation rulers and one just says, "hey, want to join my alliance?" I have no problem with it. Mass messaging nations from other alliances with recruitment messages, though, I am not a fan of.

[Locke]

Unless its a 1 man alliance, its wrong. However, if you know the person in real life, then you may invite that person. Its that simple.

edit: Thats weird. We have 99 votes for 'No', but only 77 for 'None (broken poll option)'. I expected them to be the same.

Before "None" was added, people voted for "Other." Take away the remaining 22 votes from "Other" and add them to "None" and you have your answer.

[Prime minister Johns]

Two interesting concepts have been raised in this thread and I would like to provide my personal opinion on each in turn.

Firstly the recruitment of people from other alliances,

Actively recruiting from another alliance via direct personal messages could be considered to be a violation of that alliances sovereignty and as such an act of war.

But properly conducted it need not be so,

For instance placing a flashy recruiting video in a place where people are likely to see it but not sending to any specific nation would be borderline acceptable since it could easily be argued that it is meant for the unaligned audience and if anyone who is currently in an alliance and sees the video and wants to join your alliance is just a happy bonus but not the primary goal of the video.

Like all things it is a matter of approach, and a properly conducted PR campaign can easily double as a recruitment drive without stepping on peoples toes.

And secondly the definition of neutrality and its relationship to pacifism has been raised,

There is a difference between the ideas of Neutrality and Pacifism.

We shall look at my definitions of these ideas first before we explore this concept further,

Neutrality: Not wishing to be involved in politics.

Pacifism: Not wishing to be involved in war or violence.

These terms are often mistaken to be synonyms but in fact in the context used here they are not.

For instance a nation that chooses the path of an unaligned tech raider because they do not want any alliance to dictate where they can and cant raid could be considered to be a neutral but not a pacifist.

And conversely a nation that is involved in world affairs but strongly prefers diplomatic solutions over military ones could be considered pacifist but not neutral.

And these two concepts are not simple black and white concepts either, they are both scales and upon which every nation that has ever existed on planet Bob can be placed, with complete pacifism and complete belligerence on the passivity scale and complete neutrality and heavy political involvement on the neutrality scale.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Prime minister Johns

[Haflinger]

That's the thing I don't get about this whole situation. Why are people saying NSO was disrespecting alliances? The Sith are evil.

Wait, is the argument here that because they're evil, they're not disrespectful?

In my experience, frequently evil people are disrespectful.

[HHAYD]

We did call them weak, but we did not "rant" and we never mentioned the Karma War in any way. That would be very odd seeing as how we were never part of Karma ourselves.

Lol, how ironic. Explain why in the CN Wiki your alliance was in the Karma's side list. Did you not realize that you were in a war against DOOM before?

Edited July 4, 2009 by HHAYD