"Vox populi, vox Dei" [...] can not be trusted in science

[Näktergal]

Dont give them respect if they dont deserve it, give it if they do.

You cant just say "Oh, id respect you if it werent for xxx"...Thats not how respect works.

I think his point was more along the lines of, there are things that the NPO has done which are deserving of respect, but those are far outweighed by the things they've done that deserve disdain. So that, as long as the leadership remains in power, the good will never match the bad, and thus, the alliance as a whole, overall, does not deserve respect.

He didn't say NPO didn't do bad things, he is saying that many of the nations getting punished now, never personally took part in these things as they post date the atrocities many are punishing.

As others have said, whether or not those nations held the gun, or even fired it, they still made it possible for others to do so, or profited from those actions after the fact. While most legal systems will differentiate between the principle agent and accessories to the crime - even accessory after the fact - both are still considered crimes.

Nations that joined late enough to not have had anything to do with the past actions of the NPO still chose to join an alliance that did those things. Even if the nation in question was unaware of those actions when they joined, if they have since learned of them, then they still possess the means to undo that choice. If they do not, then they are either implicitly accepting the past actions of the Order, or remain blissfully ignorant of history.

I never liked the Karma war moniker because I think it was fundamentally misleading about the reasons many people felt they were going to war.

I never liked the Karma war moniker because I think it was fundamentally misleading about what "karma" is. It's a common Western culture mistake to think of karma as this magical force that rewards the good and punishes the bad, so that bullies ultimately wind up getting bullied while the meek inherit the Earth, but really, that's not what karma is at all.

If anything, in order to be an accurate name, the Karma War would have to involve slaughtering every member of the NPO, then having them reincarnate, with their place in their new lives entirely dependent on their actions during this life.

In fact, considering the PZI aspirations of some Karma members, and the occasional demands that the NPO be completely broken and scattered, perhaps the name is more fitting than most realize.

[Machiabelly]

As others have said, whether or not those nations held the gun, or even fired it, they still made it possible for others to do so, or profited from those actions after the fact. While most legal systems will differentiate between the principle agent and accessories to the crime - even accessory after the fact - both are still considered crimes.

Nations that joined late enough to not have had anything to do with the past actions of the NPO still chose to join an alliance that did those things. Even if the nation in question was unaware of those actions when they joined, if they have since learned of them, then they still possess the means to undo that choice. If they do not, then they are either implicitly accepting the past actions of the Order, or remain blissfully ignorant of history.

Sorry Naktergal, I wasn't clear. I don't agree with him, I was just explaining what I thought he meant, as someone else thought otherwise.

Oh, and for some of you others, I was Jo fan, not Blaire.

[bkphysics]

No one who joined NPO complained when they were given proitection and were top dog on the block. That is the flip side of being in an alliance.

You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have...the facts of life.

Sorry you are getting hurt if you are blameless, but not many on any side are that.

this post wins the thread.

Now I have that song in my head

[Näktergal]

Sorry Naktergal, I wasn't clear. I don't agree with him, I was just explaining what I thought he meant, as someone else thought otherwise.

Oh, I never actually said/thought you did - I was more referring to his point tangentially by quoting your summary of it.

[Valerius]

I'm so tired of all this spin. You were the big bad wolf! It was an image you both admitted and promoted, now you're going to have to deal with the consequences.

The NPO as a whole pissed a lot of people off for a very long time, you don't just walk out of two years of this unharmed.

[Ubermeir]

You lay down with dogs you get fleas...

But it is just a game.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Ubermeir

[Opethian]

You joined the NPO because they were the big bad wolf, just like most everyone else in the alliance. With the exception of a core of dedicated players, nobody in the NPO was concerned with a set of beliefs or philosophies so much as being --and staying-- powerful.

Now, I give credit to all those players who stuck with the NPO even though the only thing that drew them there in the first place was power, but I certainly have no sympathy for any attempts to feign ignorance on the matter of the NPO's reputation.

[Bartley]

I completely understand that my alliance has its unsavory history, and it is something that I need to keep in mind whenever I post. I carry no illusions of the ill will many bear against the NPO. I believe many people understood the point of my post, but some still sought to find fault for the sake of finding fault. Others disagreed while pointing out some things that I missed.

I'd like to address a couple responses:

1) Posts like Opethian's make the claim that NPO members joined because they enjoyed the safety of being on top. Others seem to personally take the weight of their feelings for the NPO on me, which I will talk about later.

I joined the NPO because I happened to pick the red team. Like many of the younger members, the NPO was the only choice. It was hardly a matter of analyzing the statistics and weighing its diplomatic connections, nor was it a matter of digging into its history to gain a perspective in its past.

2) People have mentioned more than once that the NPO government conducts their actions with the weight of their people behind them: even if the people may or may not agree, we still have the option to surrender, leave, etc.

But I presume that many people have loyalties to an alliance and may even have friends within that alliance. If your alliance was attacked, would you surrender? Would you leave while your alliance was still in conflict?

I would like to make a point here: too often, people have priori assumptions and refuse to take a second look at their opinions. The majority of the responses here is a microcosm reflects the sentiment throughout Planet Bob: the NPO deserves this punishment. Maybe so.

But is it logical to continue to demand such harsh peace terms and push for prolonged conflict as punishment for past actions perpetrated over a period of several years conducted by numerous governments, which was made up of a variety of different people? I fully understand there is a debt to be paid. The defeated always have to make amends and right the wrongs. However, the terms so far are beyond what is capable of being repaid reasonably: the only assumption I can make is that the terms were not put forth with the intention of allowing us to repay the debt, but to extract more punishment and keep us down for the count.

[Delta1212]

But is it logical to continue to demand such harsh peace terms and push for prolonged conflict as punishment for past actions perpetrated over a period of several years conducted by numerous governments, which was made up of a variety of different people?

Just as a note, NPO has one of the most static governments in the history of the game. Not that there's never change, but the people on top two years ago are the same people that were on top when this war started.

[Kahnite]

In the end, this war proves nothing except how one can have faith in the foibles of human nature.

• People like seeing those on top take a fall.
  
• Most people fighting for Karma have never been wronged by NPO, they're just cowards in the mob that want to get in on a curb stomp where they risk nothing. If the situation were reversed, the vast majority would skulk under the nearest rock and cry for mommy.
  
• Mob mentality overrules logic or even simple math skills.
  
• A fascist regime is replaced by what else but another fascist regime.
  
• Those having the least at stake scream the loudest
  

Bob goes round, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Kahnite

[SiCkO]

im curious who will be the new dictator though

[kingzog]

.... remaining allies merely fighting token wars prior to pulling out.....

You did not just say that.

[DocOctane]

However, the terms so far are beyond what is capable of being repaid reasonably: the only assumption I can make is that the terms were not put forth with the intention of allowing us to repay the debt, but to extract more punishment and keep us down for the count.

This is different from how FAN was treated or other alliances where surrender terms implicated disbandment how?

Edited July 7, 2009 by DocOctane

[Opethian]

I completely understand that my alliance has its unsavory history, and it is something that I need to keep in mind whenever I post. I carry no illusions of the ill will many bear against the NPO. I believe many people understood the point of my post, but some still sought to find fault for the sake of finding fault. Others disagreed while pointing out some things that I missed.

I'd like to address a couple responses:

1) Posts like Opethian's make the claim that NPO members joined because they enjoyed the safety of being on top. Others seem to personally take the weight of their feelings for the NPO on me, which I will talk about later.

I joined the NPO because I happened to pick the red team. Like many of the younger members, the NPO was the only choice.

The NPO was your only choice? Hardly.

[Kahnite]

im curious who will be the new dictator though

This may sound weird, but my money's on Electric Sponge to win or place as a likely scenario.

Yes, he's not in the fight (a very wise move when you think about it, let the competition bash each other to a pulp, all the while being regarded as the reticent spiritual leader to much of Karma). He's still throwing his weight around behind the scenes. He's a good speaker and has surrounded himself with active, like minded players. And most of all, he's in a good position to not go outright for the lead, but to play "Cromwell". Whether he's satisfied to play puppeteer, or sacrifices the dupe as a meat shield and takes ultimate power, is the only question that remains to be seen.

[Lycurgus Rex]

As usual, Delta wins the thread...

[Earogema]

I thought this was a Vox topic D:

[raincoat2]

The NPO was your only choice? Hardly.

This is true, he could have joined a non colored alliance and just stayed on red.

[Näktergal]

This is true, he could have joined a non colored alliance and just stayed on red.

Or, God forbid, bit the bullet and changed teams.

Honestly, I've been on at least 7 different teams since I started playing, and that in only two alliances - I go where the trades are. But if I absolutely wanted to join a specific alliance, and had to change my color to match theirs, I'd willingly do it without hesitation. I'd be even more willing to do so to get AWAY from an alliance that has long since ceased to have any ideal or principle in common with my own beliefs.

I'm Aqua now, and there are a ton of awesome Aqua alliances, but if - hypothetically speaking - a ton of alliances either moved or changed so that every alliance in Aqua sucked, there's no way in hell I'd join a sucky alliance just to keep my color.

[Valerius]

I thought this was a Vox topic D:

Don't you wish there were more?

[Magnum T. Gundraw]

Symbolic revenge is just as fun.

[Heyman]

This may sound weird, but my money's on Electric Sponge to win or place as a likely scenario.

Yes, he's not in the fight (a very wise move when you think about it, let the competition bash each other to a pulp, all the while being regarded as the reticent spiritual leader to much of Karma). He's still throwing his weight around behind the scenes. He's a good speaker and has surrounded himself with active, like minded players. And most of all, he's in a good position to not go outright for the lead, but to play "Cromwell". Whether he's satisfied to play puppeteer, or sacrifices the dupe as a meat shield and takes ultimate power, is the only question that remains to be seen.

Shush, you!

He's planning to move to Phase Q of the operation veerrrrrryyy soon.

[Lizardo]

.... What many who fight have failed to realize is just that: their fight against the NPO is not because the people or government have personally wronged them. Instead it is symbolic revenge each alliance is seeking to comfort them regarding the wrongs of the past. Unfortunately, the players that make up this symbol, who may or may not be to blame, are the ones who pay.

It's disingenuous to profess innocence or decouple the members from the whole. I kinda took personally being gleefully wronged based upon a flimsy whimsy. Though to be fair about it quite a good number who are now on the Karma group were participants, enablers, or simply silent, at the time.

You do bring up a valid point that alliance structures that encourage leaders to think of an alliance as a personal toy or allow the leadership to wield the alliance like a reliable sword is dangerous and this is an issue that the leaders of Karma should address rather than demanding retribution or destruction. Or we'll just see this cycle repeated.

The pain of war should be applied only until a proper consensus is agreed upon. 'Reparations' is a absurd euphemism for extortion or simply a continuation of war by forced cooperation. Granted the NPO is the leading pioneer of the concept but to pursue this course when there is a viable alternative does not bring us to a better place.

Your opening argument is reasonable and I hope that is something taken to heart by those who are the subject of this present popular judgment.

My statements, as always, reflect solely my own opinion.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Lizardo

[Triskelli]

While I do not completely agree with the motives of either the Hegemony or Karma, I do feel that the NPO did require to be knocked down a few pegs at some point. It was bound to happen at some point, it was inevitable.

It just goes to show that people will not stand dictators or wielders of extreme power, regardless of their rightness or wrongness. Even if NPO had been the best thing to happen to Planet Bob, there would have been a simmering group of malcontents plotting their downfall.

This is a GAME, and worse, it is an ONLINE game. There are trolls, newbs, griefers, dumbasses, and all other manner of daemons lurking about, willing that everything fall into chaos. I'm sure everyone of us has wished we were in Moocow's position, or we wanted to see the rug pulled out from beneath him.

There is no true respect on CyberNations, no chivalry or honor. Because these things amongst such hordes of miscreants would be futile. We all use everything at our disposal to achieve what we desire, because there is no REAL threat of being condemned for it. Total war involving all members of an alliance is, was, and will always be inevitable, because at least one moron is out there willing to go to such measures. And because that single dip!@#$ is willing to go all the way, we all have to follow suit.

I am sorry you were unjustly punished for actions that were not your fault, Bradley. But such is the nature of war, regardless of motivation or justification.

[loannes]

You are an e-lawyer.

And a poor one at that.

While some nations are ignorant of NPO's history, they are nonetheless members of NPO. I didn't see any of you whining when NPO stood on the top kicking at the underdogs. You were with them in the good, you're with them in the bad.