An Open Letter to the NPO

[Cataduanes]

damn you got a summary afterall...i suppose if you don't ask you don't get

[Azhrarn]

damn you got a summary afterall...i suppose if you don't ask you don't get

I actually did. I meant to tack it on at the end but forgot until Famzy reminded me.

[Waterana]

These terms were never meant to be accepted and were offered only as a PR stunt. Maybe when those of you still at war with us finally admit that we can all get on with the eternal war you've wanted from the start. Karma will never let us rebuild because they are too afraid we'll come for them at some point. That fear will ensure this war never ends because the only acceptable outcome for Karma, where they'll feel 'safe' is the NPO's disbandment.

[Hypocrisy]

Surely you can get on with the eternal war everyone's apparently wanted from the start whether they admit it or not?

[Waterana]

I'd like Karma to admit that eternal war was their goal from the get go, rather than continue to try to blame a defeated alliance for not ending the war by accepting terms written to be rejected. Would be refreshing to see some truth come out of them for once.

[Hypocrisy]

It's just want, want, want with you people isn't it.

[Azhrarn]

I'd like Karma to admit that eternal war was their goal from the get go, rather than continue to try to blame a defeated alliance for not ending the war by accepting terms written to be rejected. Would be refreshing to see some truth come out of them for once.

Please see the 2nd quote in my sig.

[Waterana]

We know white peace is out of the question. Sheesh, Karma want eternal war, and have wanted it from the start, so why would I even think there is a snowballs chance in hell of that ever happening. So why all the bluster about us not accepting those ridiculous terms? Would have really upset the game plan for you lot if Moo had signed off on them.

[Lady Red]

OK,

In all honesty im feeling the point of my OP and initial discussions with Vladimir have been lost.......

This is NOT about whether NPO can pay reps as we all know they CAN what this is about is do we force them to pay them in a fashion that leaves them at complete and utter risk of distruction.....i think that is the sticking point,

so please instead of bashing lets have a resonable discussion about ideas that would make this WORK

i.e a staggared reps timetable

my initial proposal is as follows

the NPO has Forty days from signing of the treaty to STORE rebuilding aid with a neutral alliance such as the New Polar Order who while not allied with NPO did not take Offensive action against them

at this point the NPO nations in peace mode would come out and send as much aid as there slots will allow in forty days NO KARMA NATION WILL ATTACK AND KARMA WILL PROTECT DURING THIS PERIOD

after forty days The peace mode nations as sighted by the initial treaty will enter 14 days of war following this period Another Forty days will commence in which the NPO may get the aid back and use it ONLY on economic improvments and rebuilding BANKING NATIONS ONLY WHICH ARE TO BE IDENTIFIED IN THE TREATY

then forty days of rep paying begins following this cycle the NPO may have 30 days rebuild time to a maximum as specified by both sides and then 40 days reps paying.......this cycle will repeat untill reps are payed

any imput would be welcome but keep it clean gentlemen.........magnamimus in victory as they say

I do see what you're doing OP. And I appreciate your attempts. But this wont work for many reasons.

I'll avoid the math reasons involving huge reps and our ability to pay. It's been done before and I can't do it any better than previous illustrations.

And without getting into specifics on neutral alliances, there is something inherently unsafe and redundant about sending rebuilding aid outside the alliance. It wastes two aid slots and we gain little from it save for that tingly sensation we get while we wait on the nation to send it back.

Further, Karma people have stated that they are unwilling or unable to negotiate regarding peace terms. They won't even consider removing a relatively small aspect of terms involving extended looting on the nations they expect to then pay the largest amount of reps the world has ever seen bar none. They won't consider this even if we pay more reps. They certainly wont consider rewriting the terms themselves. They think because they are victorious they are infallible. In my nation, when the children play games on their football fields and behave in such a way, we call it being a sore winner. We take the victorious team aside, talk to them about sportsmanship and showing honor in victory... then we force them to do pushups in the middle of the field till the wee hours of the morning.

My point is... I believe from my limited view, that the reason Karma isn't willing to negotiate in their peace negotiations has nothing to do with anything we've done in this war or any war before it. I believe strongly that at least some alliances within this coalition that doesn't / does exist have seized the rare opportunity that has presented itself. They want history to show that they were the ones to destroy Pacifica. But they want to do it without anyone here seeing the blood on their hands.

Sure some alliance leaders have said time and time again that this is not the case. And occasionally I feel as if I should take them at their word. Then I read one of the many posts by Azhrarn and others of the same opinion and that warm fuzzy feeling is undone. The truth shining through the subtext. You feel these reps offered are less than what we deserve. What you feel we deserve then, I could only possibly imagine to be our complete destruction. Given the choice between a fuzzy, lengthy peace process with someone motivated as such, whose sincerity in the offered terms I question, and endless war with an increasingly disinterested coalition of alliances, why shouldn't I choose the latter? It seems to me that a year from now, I'll be no worse off for either outcome.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Lady Red

[Azhrarn]

Further, Karma people have stated that they are unwilling or unable to negotiate regarding peace terms. They won't even consider removing a relatively small aspect of terms involving extended looting on the nations they expect to then pay the largest amount of reps the world has ever seen bar none. They won't consider this even if we pay more reps. They certainly wont consider rewriting the terms themselves. They think because they are victorious they are infallible. In my nation, when the children play games on their football fields and behave in such a way, we call it being a sore winner. We take the victorious team aside, talk to them about sportsmanship and showing honor in victory... then we force them to do pushups in the middle of the field till the wee hours of the morning.

Unfortunately, you lose all credibility whatsoever in saying something like this when your AA is "NPO." If you're this unaware of your alliance's history, I would suggest that now might be a good time to start learning.

To help you get started, here's a paragraph from my post which I'm sure you must have overlooked.

How many times has the NPO held the fate of demilitarized alliances in its hands, only to abuse that trust? There is no “peace term” harsher than forced disbandment, which is the fate that the NPO has brought to, how many, 9 different alliances in Planet Bob’s history? How many nation rulers has the NPO forced from Planet Bob? How many nation rulers has it sentenced to EZI or PZI?

Edited July 3, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Vladimir]

That paragraph would have more weight (well, not really, since it is arguing that two wrongs make a right) if it was true. The NPO has never disbanded an alliance. I'd be fascinated to hear the names of the nine you are accusing us of.

[Haflinger]

That paragraph would have more weight (well, not really, since it is arguing that two wrongs make a right) if it was true. The NPO has never disbanded an alliance. I'd be fascinated to hear the names of the nine you are accusing us of.

Moo's signature was on this document. Apart from that, I have no knowledge of the NPO ever forcefully disbanding anyone, and I think it's pretty well-established by now that Slayer took the lead on that war.

[Azhrarn]

That paragraph would have more weight (well, not really, since it is arguing that two wrongs make a right) if it was true. The NPO has never disbanded an alliance. I'd be fascinated to hear the names of the nine you are accusing us of.

Mischaracterizing Argument: Check

Arguing Semantics: Check

Big Lie technique: Check

Failed Propaganda: Check

Numerous NPO members have stated that Karma is trying to destroy the NPO. Show me where in the terms it is stated that the NPO must disband. You can't. But by even making the argument you are accepting and demonstrating the validity of my claim, that it is possible to force an alliance to disband without explicitly demanding such as a condition for surrender from alliance warfare. And of course in saying this, I am NOT stating that Karma is in fact attempting to force the disbandment of the NPO.

Furthermore, punishing someone for their wrongdoing is not wrong. But that is not the argument I'm making regardless. Karma felt that the NPO was a threat. Karma decided to put the NPO down. That is all the justification that is needed.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Lady Red]

Unfortunately, you lose all credibility whatsoever in saying something like this when your AA is "NPO." If you're this unaware of your alliance's history, I would suggest that now might be a good time to start learning.

You keep saying this. Anyone who brings up any point however valid is undone by the evil that is the NPO AA. Darling, I've had that AA a year and a half now. I'm well aware of our history. I've been reading these forums far longer than I've felt the need to post on them. I suggest this. YOU are the one who knows nothing about the NPO. All you're regurgitating is the same group think shown by these forums for the past two years. We could debate whose fault it is that such hostility towards Pacifica exists and whether or not it's valid. But I think we'd need another thread for it.

My point was that I believe given the tone of your posts, you'd rather we be destroyed. I believe that is your purpose, your single, solitary goal. And I'm a little confused as to why you'd be surprised when we, as an alliance, reject that notion.

[Daimos]

Here is my attempt to summarize the current situation.

Main issue is the NPO’s nation banks.

Karma does not want eternal war but they fear future NPO reprisal hence the need to severely cripple NPO’s banks.

NPO does not want to expose their banks to Karma, as they fear this will result in destroying the NPO hence terms are not acceptable.

Both parties are certain that the NPO’s banks are the key to their survival. As long as both think this way we will have eternal war.

"I shall rest when I die"

[Vladimir]

Mischaracterizing Argument: Check

Arguing Semantics: Check

Big Lie technique: Check

Failed Propaganda: Check

Punishing someone for their wrongdoing is not wrong. But that is not the argument I'm making regardless. Karma felt that the NPO was a threat. Karma decided to put the NPO down. That is all the justification that is needed.

You asserted that the NPO had disbanded 9 alliances. I asked you to name these 9 alliances. You refuse to do so claiming that I am "arguing semantics"?!? Jeez, what next, am I not true until proven false?

If you want to say 'we will disband NPO because we think NPO is a threat', and if that is all the justification that you need, then just say that. No need to try and keep up the pretence of this being a moral war for a better world, especially not when it includes such asinine claims as above.

[Cataduanes]

All you're regurgitating is the same group think shown by these forums for the past two years. We could debate whose fault it is that such hostility towards Pacifica exists and whether or not it's valid. But I think we'd need another thread for it.

So hang on are you saying that the various points of controversial historic events that is sometimes leveled at the NPO is rubbish? is it the case that every historic decision made by the NPO was justified since 2006? do you as an individual regret nothing about the various actions committed in yours and your fellow members names? (i.e events such as the levelling of GPA for example)?

I concur that Pacificans should not accept the fate of anihilation but to ignore the reasons why some in Karma would like to see Pacifica a burnt out crater as regurgitated rubbish simply strengthens the resolve of those who perhaps do wish to keep the Order down in the gutter.

As long as the Order maintains its banks in situ of course it will be perceived as a potential future threat, this is war not a tea party

Edited July 3, 2009 by Cataduanes

[Stargazer Alchemist]

You asserted that the NPO had disbanded 9 alliances. I asked you to name these 9 alliances. You refuse to do so claiming that I am "arguing semantics"?!? Jeez, what next, am I not true until proven false?

If you want to say 'we will disband NPO because we think NPO is a threat', and if that is all the justification that you need, then just say that. No need to try and keep up the pretence of this being a moral war for a better world, especially not when it includes such asinine claims as above.

Moo's signature was on this document. Apart from that, I have no knowledge of the NPO ever forcefully disbanding anyone, and I think it's pretty well-established by now that Slayer took the lead on that war.

Conveniently missed that post did you Vlad?

And yes, I'm aware your claim is regarding 9 alliances, yet this link only provides 1. My points is, NPO has history of forcing disbandment in the past.

[ShinRa]

You asserted that the NPO had disbanded 9 alliances. I asked you to name these 9 alliances.

IAA, GOLD, LUE, NAAC, Golden Sabres to name a few.

Jeez, what next, am I not true until proven false?

Frankly, considering your past posts in anti-NPO threads and the content of your own walls of text, you might as well be.

No need to try and keep up the pretence of this being a moral war for a better world, especially not when it includes such asinine claims as above.

Can you honestly say that there would not be a better balance of power? that there would not be so many alliances being endlessly curb stomped? that the same number of people would be endlessly ranting about Francoism and altering it's teachings to their needs? That there would be the same level of EZI being used and that alliances would still be being curbed stomped over the mild comments of one or two people?

Face it Vladimir, people want you gone for what the NPO has done for both revenge, to make 'the world a better place', to make things interesting again, and to not have one massive series of super blocs with one red alliance in the middle of all of it influencing every single last war's outcome at a whim.

[Lady Red]

So hang on are you saying that the various points of controversial historic events that is sometimes leveled at the NPO is rubbish? is it the case that every historic decision made by the NPO was justified since 2006? do you as an individual regret nothing about the various actions committed in yours and your fellow members names? (i.e events such as the levelling of GPA for example)?

I concur that Pacificans should not accept the fate of anihilation but to ignore the reasons why some in Karma would like to see Pacifica a burnt out crater as regurgitated rubbish simply strengthens the resolve of those who perhaps do wish to keep the Order down in the gutter.

As long as the Order maintains its banks in situ of course it will be perceived as a potential future threat, this is war not a tea party

Take a pen out and write this down. You'll need it for your propaganda later.

I regret nothing.

Anything that should have been apologized for has been apologized for. Some decisions were difficult and cost us dearly. But I do not regret them because they were necessary. Have we made mistakes? Sure. Karma is fond of saying Pacifica is just like any other alliance, and this is true. We are capable of errors in judgment. But I will not sit here and go back over them all whilst lashing myself in guilt and abject despair. Our leaders have always done what they thought was best for our alliance. I would expect no less out of any other leader.

We can get going on a debate of 'coulda, woulda, shoulda', but at the end of the day I'll still be proud of my leaders for how they handled this situation, communication errors and all.

Hypocrisy is the act of expecting more from others than you'd be willing to give of yourself. Karma wants us dead for a long list of crimes that gets added to daily based on mood, menstrual cycle, and the intoxication of the person you're speaking with. I no longer care what strengthens their resolve. I just want them to admit to their intent. The moral pretense is giving me a headache.

[Azhrarn]

You asserted that the NPO had disbanded 9 alliances. I asked you to name these 9 alliances. You refuse to do so claiming that I am "arguing semantics"?!? Jeez, what next, am I not true until proven false?

If you want to say 'we will disband NPO because we think NPO is a threat', and if that is all the justification that you need, then just say that. No need to try and keep up the pretence of this being a moral war for a better world, especially not when it includes such asinine claims as above.

Asinine is stating that I refused to provide the names of alliances which you had forced to disband. Point to me the sentence where I stated such. Asinine is imputing to me a motive which I never claimed "a moral war for a better world." Again, point to me the sentence where I stated such. And asinine is stating that anything you say is presumed true until proven false. Making multiple statements such as the above in only one post merely indicates that attempting to even have a discussion with you is an utter waste of time, as your dishonestly is irrefutable.

Even Haflinger, who seems to be infatuated with your alliance, freely admits that you forced Norden Verein into disbandment. And that one example alone is sufficient to demolish the argument which Lady Red made earlier.

Beyond that, there have been numerous instances in which you have repeatedly warred certain alliances, often using fabricated CBs, until they finally disbanded. To give just a few examples off the top of my mind, the Viridian Entente, which is at war with you now, disbanded after it was warred for daring to resign from the WUT. The Greenland Republic, which is also at war with you now, has members from past alliances such as the NAAC, Atlantis, and Hyperion, names with which I'm sure you're familiar. The NAAC was repeatedly warred until it finally disbanded. Atlantis was threatened with war on the basis of a fabricated CB, and chose to disband after being told that it would have to accept a Viceroy and expel certain government members. Atlantis had included members from both GATO and the Legion, both of which alliances had also been given terms with included Viceroys and the forced expulsion of government members. In both of those cases the alliances chose not to disband, but the practical result was the same, the destruction of their unique cultures, after the imposition of Viceroys. And Hyperion was also attacked on the basis of a fabricated CB, and chose to merge with GR.

Re-read Lady Red's comments in light of your history above, in light of your past treatment of numerous alliances, and the sheer ludicrousness of her remarks becomes apparent - as does the fundamental validity of my assertion that when your AA is NPO, you don't get to criticize others for "poor sportsmanship."

[ShinRa]

Take a pen out and write this down. You'll need it for your propaganda later.

I regret nothing.

Anything that should have been apologized for has been apologized for.

Namely? What has the order apologized for and what has it not apologized for? I’ve yet to see the emperor saying he’s sorry to the former members of Vox Populi for what he’s done or personally apologizing to FAN for trying to kill of the entire alliance due to the alleged actions of a few people.

Some decisions were difficult and cost us dearly.

But I do not regret them because they were necessary. Have we made mistakes? Sure. Karma is fond of saying Pacifica is just like any other alliance, and this is true. We are capable of errors in judgment. But I will not sit here and go back over them all whilst lashing myself in guilt and abject despair. Our leaders have always done what they thought was best for our alliance. I would expect no less out of any other leader.

So when Trotsky’s Revenge dragged the rest of you headlong into a war you could not win, that was for the good of the NPO? This is very different from the pre-karma war boasts over the past few years stating ‘we are the one, we are the invincible etc etc.’

The only reason that there has been any change in your alliance is that they’re now the ones on the receiving end of a thrashing and they’re trying to make people forget they attacked during peace talks.

We can get going on a debate of 'coulda, woulda, shoulda', but at the end of the day I'll still be proud of my leaders for how they handled this situation, communication errors and all.

That’s fine. That’s your opinion at the end of the day, but again they’re people who chose to take on Karma and put the NPO in the state it’s now in.

Hypocrisy is the act of expecting more from others than you'd be willing to give of yourself.

Such as?

Karma wants us dead for a long list of crimes that gets added to daily based on mood, menstrual cycle, and the intoxication of the person you're speaking with.

Again, do you have any examples? also that last part is largely due to the fact that many in Karma all want the NPO to be beaten but for very different reasons. That’s something which has been repeated over the forums for quite a long time now.

I no longer care what strengthens their resolve. I just want them to admit to their intent. The moral pretense is giving me a headache.

Well which one? all of the alliances which make up Karma for different reasons or just one of the more notable ones in this war? Ordo Verde for instance.

[Cataduanes]

Take a pen out and write this down. You'll need it for your propaganda later.

I regret nothing.

Anything that should have been apologized for has been apologized for. Some decisions were difficult and cost us dearly. But I do not regret them because they were necessary. Have we made mistakes? Sure. Karma is fond of saying Pacifica is just like any other alliance, and this is true. We are capable of errors in judgment. But I will not sit here and go back over them all whilst lashing myself in guilt and abject despair. Our leaders have always done what they thought was best for our alliance. I would expect no less out of any other leader.

We can get going on a debate of 'coulda, woulda, shoulda', but at the end of the day I'll still be proud of my leaders for how they handled this situation, communication errors and all.

Hypocrisy is the act of expecting more from others than you'd be willing to give of yourself. Karma wants us dead for a long list of crimes that gets added to daily based on mood, menstrual cycle, and the intoxication of the person you're speaking with. I no longer care what strengthens their resolve. I just want them to admit to their intent. The moral pretense is giving me a headache.

Propaganda? you must be mistaking me with someone else ..i am just a lurker and besides an ODN member creating propaganda on these boards is likely to get laughed out of town (or trolled, i know my place Lady Red), i am happy that you took the time to answer me and i respect your stand on having no regrets, apoligies have been made to specific parties (such as a spurious and very very late apology to GATO) yet i fail to see that apologetic stand carrying on in the conduct and posts of members such as yourself...it hardly strikes me as sincere if you catch my drift.

The fact is that in this war you guys lack the political capital to force peace on your terms, if the Order is desirous of peace then regret for some of the actions whom some in Karma are still pissed about (and yes that list is long) would be a great starting point. Simply becuase the Karma leaders refuse to negotiate does not mean it is impossible to do so...but bridges have to be built and the onus i am afraid is on the Order to do the building.

Peace has to be forged with hardwork but hey you guys want to be stubborn then so be it but expect no sympathy from the majority because i doubt it will be forthcoming.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Cataduanes

[Haflinger]

Even Haflinger, who seems to be infatuated with your alliance, freely admits that you forced Norden Verein into disbandment. And that one example alone is sufficient to demolish the argument which Lady Red made earlier.

Actually, I didn't say that.

I said that Moo signed off on Slayer's terms. I wish he hadn't, but there it is.

For the record, the other names on those terms were, sorted by which alliance they currently reside in:

Valhalla

Chefjoe

Bob Sanders

Tron IX

Argent

Reyne Mordigan

Old Guard

Pete Stevens

House Atreides

Sun WuKong

The Phoenix Federation

JBone of Boneslovia

Zerotoast

Desperado

Random Hero

GATO

Magicninja

Mushroom Kingdom

Boogeyman657

New Sith Order

Heft

Independent Republic of Orange Nations

Shan Revan

MCRABT

Freezer

Peron

Matt Miller

Bay102174

Krash

FinsterBaby

The Order Of The Paradox

Coursca

Sitethief

FOK

MrCyber

Divi Filius

Timmehhh

Unaligned

Slayer99

auto98

No longer with us

The Big Bad

Mogar

Nextkiller

If the criterion is "supported the war against Norden Verein," then it looks like tough times may be ahead for several alliances, including IRON and FOK - both of whom actually fought in the war.

[von Metternich]

I can't be bothered to find the quote, but someone said that Karma wants to destroy EVERY Pacifican.

I'd just like to say that this is false and whoever gave this image to you is crazy. Karma is just pissed at NPO's leadership. The whole of NPO isn't it's leadership (Pacifican's need permission to post in the OWF for god's sake!) hence Karma isn't trying to destroy the whole of NPO.