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What was he thinking?


King Chill I
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I took a bit of a sabbatical from CN but now that i can tolerate it a little more I am willing to put an end to the speculations of what I wanted, what I said and what I did and I guess more importantly why I did it.

I was gonna write a wall of text but figured this way would be easier and will save me time on bs arguments since I can answer directly to specific concerns.

Ill start of by putting down the ground rules.

1 - Only logical and polite questions get answered. What I deem crap will be ignored.

2 - I believe that SethB deserved to be ZIed because he clearly accepted info not just from a disgruntled member of another alliance but a dedicated spy network that had as its purpose the destruction of another alliance. Its a fine line but I think the difference matters. You can say that everyone does it (eg. getting info from Vox), maybe, but if you get caught you gotta take the punishment (so we can skip that argument).

3 - As far as me getting out of the picture goes, that was due mainly to internal and personal factors or put more simply, it wasn't fun anymore which defeated the purpose of playing a game.

Ask away.

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I took a bit of a sabbatical from CN but now that i can tolerate it a little more I am willing to put an end to the speculations of what I wanted, what I said and what I did and I guess more importantly why I did it.

I'm a bit unfamiliar with your history, so might I kindly inquire into what you're referring to in the above?

Thanks,

VI

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I'm a bit unfamiliar with your history, so might I kindly inquire into what you're referring to in the above?

Thanks,

VI

This is mainly about how things went in the initial stages of the Karma war. Giving you a full background would take a while so you can just follow the thread (hoping it doesnt devolve) to find out the details.

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2 - I believe that SethB deserved to be ZIed because he clearly accepted info not just from a disgruntled member of another alliance but a dedicated spy network that had as its purpose the destruction of another alliance. Its a fine line but I think the difference matters. You can say that everyone does it (eg. getting info from Vox), maybe, but if you get caught you gotta take the punishment (so we can skip that argument).

Ask away.

I'm going to fix this for you,

Excepted information from a dedicated spy network with its sole purpose to root out all spies and report it back to The NPO, any other explanation for this organizations existence could be de-bunked from the 100's of posts, screen shots and log dumps found in numerous threads here on the OWF.

Will they or the person or persons involved in this diabolical scheme ever admit it ... NO !!

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To: Gen Lee From: King Chill I Date: 6/29/2009 12:36:21 AM

Subject: RE: War Declared!

Message: Ill enjoy spanking your bottom.

Why?! Why!?

Also could you please apply some baby powder in between sessions. ktnx.

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Do you believe it is possible for you to reconcile with the folks directly involved?

Well I dont plan on getting that involved in the game again. I was never really that conciled (yea i made it up) with a lot of people to start with but with the exception of a few annoying people I am always open to everyone.

Why?! Why!?

Also could you please apply some baby powder in between sessions. ktnx.

That would be a non-relevant question but given the current situation Ill make an exception.

To: King Chill I From: Gen Lee Date: 6/29/2009 12:41:27 AM

Subject: RE: War Declared!

Message: i like it rough.

Sorry the session has already started with the above chosen option and we dont use safe words.

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You can say that everyone does it (eg. getting info from Vox), maybe, but if you get caught you gotta take the punishment (so we can skip that argument).

I disagree. Viewing stolen information has historically only ever been condemned when it was someone weaker doing it to someone larger and been used as an excuse for a war that the stronger party was already looking for. There are plenty of major players that are known to have accepted private screenshots from dedicated spies and haven't had to deal with consequences for the act. Need I remind you of the screenshots taken of the Polar forum a year ago. Citadel certainly didn't have a problem taking and using those screenshots, provided by a dedicated spy, but not one they had planted themselves. It's not so different a situation, the screenshots in the Polar incident were just more interesting and got spread farther and faster as a consequence. (For the record, I didn't have problems viewing said screenshots either, so that's not a shot at Citadel, it's merely an illustration of a point that Chill's premise is without merit). The historical precedent has never been "accepting screenshots is a CB" but "accepting screenshots of someone who doesn't like you and has more friends than you is a CB because people with big guns can get away with using it as one."

Which makes it, of course, a !@#$%^&* CB.

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maybe, but if you get caught you gotta take the punishment (so we can skip that argument).

I read TWiP and Sponge's publication eagerly every week and attained information pertaining to secrets of various Continuum and non-

Continuum alliances alike.

Therefore, by your unquestionable logic since I admit to doing so it has been found out and I deserve to be ZI'd. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Coming from Moo-Cows himself: "everybody accepts information". SethB did not approach this fellow and ask for any information he was offered it and accepted it.

If you can't see the hypocrisy there then I can not help you.

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Hey Chill i think you didnt get how this works. It's totally acceptable to derail any Gremlins or Citadel thread with the topics you presented, but when its actually about clearing stuff up, nobody is interested. They just want to smear it in our faces from time to time.

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A victim of the ancien regime's morality.

Then of course you viewed the screenshots from NPO's board in that publication, right?

A publication created by "a dedicated spy network that had as its purpose the destruction of another alliance the entire power structure that abused this game and it's community for two years."

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I have a question for you chill.

sethb was not an accomplice to the spying on NPO. He neither was the spy, nor did he plant the spy. He did not illicit the spy for information, he did not offer to protect the spy, he did not have any information as to who the spy was. All he did was witness not even at request what the spy had produced -- a screenshot of the NPO forums of what was at the time commonly accessible information.

When did it become sethb's duty to police spying on NPO? He had no interest in the NPO and it was not his job to approach them and let them know something they already knew. The NPO had spies. Everybody knows the NPO had spies, they probably still have spies in their alliance.

So knowing all that what makes it sethb's responsibility? Why does he deserve to be attacked for doing what many of us has done. In fact we've done much worse, NPO itself has done much worse. In asking for more material from within NPO to be published in TWiP. Do you not see the utter hypocrisy here? Why should one person be singled out and attacked for something we all have done?

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I disagree. Viewing stolen information has historically only ever been condemned when it was someone weaker doing it to someone larger and been used as an excuse for a war that the stronger party was already looking for. There are plenty of major players that are known to have accepted private screenshots from dedicated spies and haven't had to deal with consequences for the act. Need I remind you of the screenshots taken of the Polar forum a year ago. Citadel certainly didn't have a problem taking and using those screenshots, provided by a dedicated spy, but not one they had planted themselves. It's not so different a situation, the screenshots in the Polar incident were just more interesting and got spread farther and faster as a consequence. (For the record, I didn't have problems viewing said screenshots either, so that's not a shot at Citadel, it's merely an illustration of a point that Chill's premise is without merit). The historical precedent has never been "accepting screenshots is a CB" but "accepting screenshots of someone who doesn't like you and has more friends than you is a CB because people with big guns can get away with using it as one."

Which makes it, of course, a !@#$%^&* CB.

If you are making a comparison to the Citadel-Polar issue you should also recognize the difference in "hey these guys wanna hurt you" to "hey wanna see some screen shots of this certain alliance's military setup"?

Thats not enough of a substantial difference though.

You want to talk from a historical perspective? As i said, everyone does it but only those caught pay for it (thats why you have plausible deniability). Thats how intelligence gathering works.

The CN equivalent of rotting in a foreign jail unrecognized by your gov or being expelled from a country with diplomatic immunity is the process of ZI.

Thats why i never said anything about a CB but only about ZI and thats why countries dont go to war when one of their agents gets caught (and spare me the CN is not RL blah blah blah).

That is also why the arguments of "but BC was actually set up by NPO" also dont really mean much. If you get caught buying weed from an undercover cop it does not exonerate you because he wasnt an actual dealer.

Hence, why I became convinced during the negotiations that the best option was to have Sethb ZIed in exchange for TPF and NPO giving up their guy inside OV since rooting out a traitor is worth all of 2k infra that he had.

So yea i agree with you Delta, its not a CB and its about the individual people except our interpretation of what the consequences should be is what differs.

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I read TWiP and Sponge's publication eagerly every week and attained information pertaining to secrets of various Continuum and non-

Continuum alliances alike.

Therefore, by your unquestionable logic since I admit to doing so it has been found out and I deserve to be ZI'd. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Coming from Moo-Cows himself: "everybody accepts information". SethB did not approach this fellow and ask for any information he was offered it and accepted it.

If you can't see the hypocrisy there then I can not help you.

personally, i think the first line indicates that this was a lot more than just a random drop, but maybe that's just me sherlock.gif

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> I got that screenie for you

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> Cheesy

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> about NPO increasing warchest

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> BUT

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> here's the deal

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> ?

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> NPO has an anti-spy feature

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> it's embedded in the image

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> we don't know where

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> so if that screen shot leaks, we lose a spy

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> ok

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> okay

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> just so you know

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> It will remain in OV

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/w...rchestleak.jpg

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/w...chest2leak.jpg

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> guard that with your life

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> I will

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> promise

[17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[blackstone]> bbl

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I closed my eyes :P

Not really sure what the whole story is, but enjoy ... I guess

If you want a detailed history go find the Rok thread that i think Lee posted, if memory serves the OP was something about a rumor regarding IRON's reps being 10x worse then they were..around page 20 or so it picks up

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