NPO - A Suggestion

[Stetson76]

I've done a lot of reading on the subject and haven't seen this posted in any of the threads I've read. And I'm one of the idiots who read every post in the 200+ page monster.

NPO has a very simple way out of the two weeks of war. Bring all of your PM nations out before you sign the terms!

I've taken the liberty of looking at NPO's PM nations. You can too NPO PM Nations.

If they message all of their PM nations today and tell them that in 7 days time, everyone must be out peace mode one of two things is going to happen. Either everyone will come out, Happy Day, they can sign the terms immediately and beging paying back, or there will be straggelers that haven't complied in time. Those stragglers could have upwards of 2 weeks of additional time to come out without causing any further damage to the alliance than the terms have mandated already. There will be no excuse if they're not out by the time the two weeks is up, because they will have had to have logged on to collect taxes, or their nation would be gone.

Either way it works out, NPO controls it's own destiny. The sooner they get everyone out of PM, the faster they can sign the terms, but they are in control regarding how much war Karma gets to inflict on them instead of being at Karma's mercy regarding the terms.

Some in NPO might say, well we can't force people to come out of PM, but we don't want to kick them out...I'm sorry, if they have to log into their nation to collect taxes and they see a message that says, "come out for no more than 2 weeks, and we can promise it won't be more than that, because we're in control as to when we sign the surrender terms, or we as an alliance are screwed" and they don't, then they are not true members of your alliance and should be called what they are ghosts with forum access.

If it's true that ALL of the nations in PM can only log on once every 19 days to collect and keep their nations active, then using the scenario I orginally outlined i.e. set the deadline to be out of PM in 7 days, only 59 PM Nations will have to fight more than 2 weeks worth of war!

You control your own fate here. All you have to do is pull off what GATO was able to do and that is get all of your PM nations out before 3 weeks are up and you'll be able to wipe that surrender term right off the books. And even better, the banks that you're so concerned about that aren't the one's disobeying orders will be able to come out of PM the day before you sign the terms, so they won't even have to take so much damage.

Oh, and just something I noticed when I was putting the spreadsheet together...

If the NPO had told all of their PM nations to come out when the monster thread was first posted, enough PM nations would have logged in to make that happen already.

I for one don't really care about the NPO, but I'm posting this "way out" for them so that they can get out of the war and our friends at TPF can get peace. Hope someone listens to that can happen.

[King Silas]

Interesting, so you are saying that if the PM nations had more then enough military forces, war chests etc. then they (NPO) could make a major come back and end this war......

*sits back in chair* I like it and it's completely possible, but I would think that NPO would have already thought of that.....

It's sneak attack, saves money.... I say what the heck I like this idea.

Edit: took out Diabolical because that really shouldn't be there.

Edited June 28, 2009 by King Silas

[Sylar]

they know they can but they wont and they should not.

[Stetson76]

I'm not even necessarily suggesting that they come out guns blazing. They can make it an internal announcement and hope that the Karma forces don't notice them coming out for a few days. It'd save even more money. I'm just saying that it's a way to weed out the ghosts and control how long they are at war which is something that they claimed was the major issue with the terms.

[King Silas]

they know they can but they wont and they should not.

your nation (alliance in this matter) first, diplomacy second

[King Silas]

I'm not even necessarily suggesting that they come out guns blazing. They can make it an internal announcement and hope that the Karma forces don't notice them coming out for a few days. It'd save even more money. I'm just saying that it's a way to weed out the ghosts and control how long they are at war which is something that they claimed was the major issue with the terms.

I'm sure that Karma would notice that, not to mention that if NPO goes with this plan or a similar plan Karma would know.

Edited June 28, 2009 by King Silas

[Haflinger]

I'm not even necessarily suggesting that they come out guns blazing. They can make it an internal announcement and hope that the Karma forces don't notice them coming out for a few days. It'd save even more money. I'm just saying that it's a way to weed out the ghosts and control how long they are at war which is something that they claimed was the major issue with the terms.

lol, how stupid do you think Karma Milcom is?

They're monitoring NPO peacemode nations.

[George the Great]

It doesn't even matter. We clarified the terms to them (even though they knew exactly what we meant, but they wanted to complain about something) and they still turned them down.

I. Every nation of the New Pacific Order which has greater than 4000.00 infrastructure upon the presentation of these terms shall be subject to two full rounds of war, after which peace shall be granted to the nation in question. The first round of war for each nation begins when the first offensive declaration by Karma is made on that nation. The second round begins after the first war from the first round expires. Nations which do not make themselves available for this war to begin within 1 month after this term being signed shall be entered onto the ZI lists of all Karma signatories of these terms, and attacked until they have reached zero infrastructure and then released, whenever they come out of peace mode.

They spent two hours complaining about the 1 month limit, despite the fact that you need to log in every 20 days to avoid being deleted from the game, so one month was an extra 10 days for them to comply. We later realized the only reason they argued for so long about the 1 month limit, which was almost irrelevant, was because without it, there is no limit whatsoever on their complying with the given terms. So they could just go on and on and on with their nations in PM without complying, while their current war mode nations would be at peace and they could start rebuilding. Tricky. Once we called them out on that, the three of them mysteriously walked out on the discussions. I still don't think they've realized they lost, and as such, they continue to act like they can do whatever they please.

lol, how stupid do you think Karma Milcom is?

They're monitoring NPO peacemode nations.

I dunno, we're pretty dumb.

[Sylar]

lol, how stupid do you think Karma Milcom is?

They're monitoring NPO peacemode nations.

well they couldn't even stagger lol so you never know

[Stetson76]

I'm not suggesting anyone is stupid, I'm just saying that if a few of the 232 PM nations come out they may get a day or two without being attacked, further reducing the amount of damage they'd have to take in this scenario. I seem to recall a number of NPO nations claiming they came out of peace mode and went unmolested for a few days.

But even if they were all jumped on imediately, they'd still take a lot less damage than the NPO forces are claiming they're afraid of waiting to reach 90% compliance.

I'm surprised at you Haflinger, in all of your posts on this topic to this point seem to have been solidly in favor of NPO getting reduced terms. Here I'm suggesting a way for them to control their own destiny and in a perfect world allow them to only take 1 day of additional damage (although realistically, it would be a week or more, but absolutely no more than 2 weeks negating NPO's stated fear of never getting to 90%) and you're dismissing it out of hand.

[Big Z]

well they couldn't even stagger lol so you never know

So what does that say about those who surrendered?

[King Silas]

It doesn't even matter. We clarified the terms to them (even though they knew exactly what we meant, but they wanted to complain about something) and they still turned them down.

They spent two hours complaining about the 1 month limit, despite the fact that you need to log in every 20 days to avoid being deleted from the game, so one month was an extra 10 days for them to comply. We later realized the only reason they argued for so long about the 1 month limit, which was almost irrelevant, was because without it, there is no limit whatsoever on their complying with the given terms. So they could just go on and on and on with their nations in PM without complying, while their current war mode nations would be at peace and they could start rebuilding. Tricky. Once we called them out on that, the three of them mysteriously walked out on the discussions. I still don't think they've realized they lost, and as such, they continue to act like they can do whatever they please.

Hmm... didn't know bout some of this....

Even so, this plan COULD work if it wanted to.

And NPO didn't loose... yet. But lets take this situation and turn it around,

Karma is in NPO's situation and NPO in Karma's.

Karma would be doing practically the same thing as NPO, in fact any alliance that would/will be in NPO's situation would be doing the same thing as NPO in order to live and not to pay anything.

[Stetson76]

It doesn't even matter. We clarified the terms to them...

I hadn't seen the clarified terms posted, but this makes it even easier for them to use the idea I presented, get as many nations out of PM as they can, sign the terms and they just have to deal with the stragglers who have to put up with the two weeks of war within 30 days.

Man, I'd be really pissed at my alliance leadership if they forced me to continue this fight when options like this exist.

[Matthew Conrad]

I'm surprised at you Haflinger, in all of your posts on this topic to this point seem to have been solidly in favor of NPO getting reduced terms. Here I'm suggesting a way for them to control their own destiny and in a perfect world allow them to only take 1 day of additional damage (although realistically, it would be a week or more, but absolutely no more than 2 weeks negating NPO's stated fear of never getting to 90%) and you're dismissing it out of hand.

Haf's post really has nothing to do with his position on the terms. He's just pointing out there's no way large NPO nations can come out of peace mode for any significant length of time without being attacked. Did you expect us to just wait for NPO to tell us their nations are out of PM?

[King Silas]

Haf's post really has nothing to do with his position on the terms. He's just pointing out there's no way large NPO nations can come out of peace mode for any significant length of time without being attacked. Did you expect us to just wait for NPO to tell us their nations are out of PM?

I dont know bout you, but ya

[Joe Kremlin]

Are NPO nations allowed to attack back for those 2 weeks?

[George the Great]

Hmm... didn't know bout some of this....

Even so, this plan COULD work if it wanted to.

And NPO didn't loose... yet. But lets take this situation and turn it around,

Karma is in NPO's situation and NPO in Karma's.

Karma would be doing practically the same thing as NPO, in fact any alliance that would/will be in NPO's situation would be doing the same thing as NPO in order to live and not to pay anything.

Nah, I saw what they were doing the first day, and the second and so on. Sure, it was annoying, but they did make a lot of progress on the first day. Quite a bit was negotiated. Come the second day we decided we negotiated enough, but they haven't realized that yet, apparently. I still would have tried it on the second day as well, if I were them, maybe even the third. After three or four weeks, though, I'd have definitely quit acting like I was running the show. Every day they postpone the inevitable, it just makes it that much worse on themselves. If they weren't so arrogant about it, I'd almost feel bad, almost.

NPO did admit defeat all ready... They lost the war. In a year or so from now they may claim that their Emperor erroneously made that statement due to not thinking clearly, and that they in fact didn't lose. I guess we'll have to wait and see what Vlad posts when/if we get to that point.

The reps are harsh, but they're still perfectly payable and well deserved.

[SunnyInc]

snip

Just about everyone, including the NPO, knows the Karma hardliners are about as trustworthy as a known pedophile at a Wiggles concert. Apparently, you didn't get the memo.

Edited June 29, 2009 by SunnyInc

[kingzog]

lol, how stupid do you think Karma Milcom is?

They're monitoring NPO peacemode nations.

Let me address the second part first.

I've been keeping tabs on a number of NPO nations whose leaders I know. That fact is that the ones who have popped out of peace mode have been attacked, but in some cases only a day or two later, while nations in war mode have been allowed to comfortably slip back into peace mode.

Perhaps I've selected the 'exceptions to the rule', but I've been amazed at just how sloppy Karma's military has become and how poor their staggers have been.

Unlike Bilrow, I'm not going to bore bombard people with numbers that folks will say are "subject to interpretation" and so on. (Don't bother asking me privately, either. I'm not here to do anybody's work for them.)

Now to the first part.

Are they stupid? No, of course not. But from what I've seen it's become a rather slapdash, lazy operation. I don't know who is responsible for this, but I promise you that if they were working under my Reichsgeneral they would have been fired by now. (He's a "zero tolerance" kind of guy, which is why I like him in that role.)

-----

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the NPO was correct about their level of resolve versus that of Karma's. The NPO will continue to bleed members as this war goes on, of course, but they'll be better off with the core that remains.

[George the Great]

Are NPO nations allowed to attack back for those 2 weeks?

Does it say that they aren't? I posted the entire clause for the 2 week war requirement. There is neither more nor less than what is written there. I'm not big on the whole deception/lying by omission thing. NPO's big baw thread had enough lying by omission in it. I don't see any need to keep it up. (Though that's not what she said.)

[Delta1212]

Are NPO nations allowed to attack back for those 2 weeks?

No one ever said they couldn't.

[Haflinger]

I'm surprised at you Haflinger, in all of your posts on this topic to this point seem to have been solidly in favor of NPO getting reduced terms.

I'm in favour of NPO getting out of war in a realistic fashion. I keep on saying this and not many folks listen to me.

Your plan appeared to be hinging on incredible incompetence by Karma. Failing to stagger is one thing, that's usually the result of overeager attacking nations showing poor discipline; however, your proposed plan suggest Karma would fail to notice nations coming out of peace mode.

That's ... pretty ambitious.

Of course if they tried it and it worked they'd have bragging rights for like decades. lol.

[George the Great]

Are NPO nations allowed to attack back for those 2 weeks?

Does it say that they aren't? I posted the entire clause for the 2 week war requirement. There is neither more nor less than what is written there. I'm not big on the whole deception/lying by omission thing. NPO's big baw thread had enough lying by omission in it. I don't see any need to keep it up. (Though that's not what she said.)

I'm in favour of NPO getting out of war in a realistic fashion. I keep on saying this and not many folks listen to me.

Your plan appeared to be hinging on incredible incompetence by Karma. Failing to stagger is one thing, that's usually the result of overeager attacking nations showing poor discipline; however, your proposed plan suggest Karma would fail to notice nations coming out of peace mode.

That's ... pretty ambitious.

Of course if they tried it and it worked they'd have bragging rights for like decades. lol.

And with the clarified terms it doesn't even matter anymore, as their nations are guaranteed to only see 2 rounds of war. One round, expiration, 2nd round, expiration, and finito.

Edit: Replied to Haf, too.

Edited June 28, 2009 by George the Great

[Joe Kremlin]

No one ever said they couldn't.

That's why I asked.

[Stetson76]

---your proposed plan suggest Karma would fail to notice nations coming out of peace mode.

That's ... pretty ambitious.

I'm not suggesting that they wouldn't notice a large number of nations coming out of peace mode merely that a few people may get a day or two of respit in war mode just like Kingzong suggested.

The point of this is not to get everyone out of peace mode in stealth, the point is that NPO is not subject to the terms until they sign them. Therefore, nations who are not in peace mode when the terms are signed are not going to have to worry about the two weeks of additional war. This merely allows the NPO to control how long their nations are in war mode before they sign the terms.

I would also, like to re-point out that if NPO had said "everyone out of the pool" and mandated that all of their peace mode nations cycled out, they would have at this point had more than the 90% of their peace mode nations log on and collect who could have conceivably changed their war/peace status. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin' to everyone who said it was impossible for them to hit that threshold due to the time of the year.