Teriethien Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 "Unfortunately, those who seek to have a single area united eventually see the death of their nation. It has happened for Nordland twice, Gross Deutschland, the USA, Altin Urda, the UAE, everyone. However, if you allow us to be friendly towards your nation, and let us have open borders, we will see a unified French people, and the only differences will be in the government and a line on a map.For your second contention, I am a little confused. If it is such an easy invasion point, why do you want it? Currently, your entire northern coast is blocked by us, therefore no easy invasion route can be planned. We certainly hold no ill will to the government of France, nor any other nation. And again, if our nations become friendly enough, we could be in an area for mutual defense." The King obviously looked confused and a little disturbed. Either this was racism or ignorance, which usually goes hand in hand, but he would chalk it up to confusion on their part about the intent of the Normans. "On the first point, France have no quarrels with the world at large and we seek to settle any and all disputes diplomatically - or else we wouldn't be here. Whereas we are willing to recognise the right of the Normans to establish a Kingdom of their own, and we wholeheartedly believe that Normans are both our brethren and part of the French people, you must understand our position as the legal successor state to the France of old. We are, above all, a nation-state, and accordingly we seek to including as much of the French nation as possible. "While this does not preclude a territorial settlement encompasses land outside the Normandy itself I hope that the Kingdom is able to recognise that French claims to these inherently French territories are not in anyway inferior to yours. If anything, they must be stronger. "Next, I may have been unclear in communicating our second position; let me clarify. The Nord-Pas-de-Calais region is historically where invasions into France occurs due to its unfortunate geography. Any hostile army attacking from a northern direction will invariably pass through this region, and from much of Northern France, including Paris, is but a short trip. French military doctrine calls for stopping the enemy at or beyond our borders: therefore, the government of France feels that her best option in guaranteeing her security is to have direct control over such a vital point of entry. "However, I suggest we first lay aside these theoretically arguments; I do believe we have gotten ahead of ourselves. What territories do the Kingdom of Normandie wish to claim from the Prussian protectorate? The French government naturally laid claim to all parts of France in their entirety, as was announced upon our entry some time ago." OOC: I think your current territory doesn't include Picardie, does it? That part should be under the Prussian protectorate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacharth Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 "On the first point, France have no quarrels with the world at large and we seek to settle any and all disputes diplomatically - or else we wouldn't be here. Whereas we are willing to recognise the right of the Normans to establish a Kingdom of their own, and we wholeheartedly believe that Normans are both our brethren and part of the French people, you must understand our position as the legal successor state to the France of old. We are, above all, a nation-state, and accordingly we seek to including as much of the French nation as possible."While this does not preclude a territorial settlement encompasses land outside the Normandy itself I hope that the Kingdom is able to recognise that French claims to these inherently French territories are not in anyway inferior to yours. If anything, they must be stronger. "Next, I may have been unclear in communicating our second position; let me clarify. The Nord-Pas-de-Calais region is historically where invasions into France occurs due to its unfortunate geography. Any hostile army attacking from a northern direction will invariably pass through this region, and from much of Northern France, including Paris, is but a short trip. French military doctrine calls for stopping the enemy at or beyond our borders: therefore, the government of France feels that her best option in guaranteeing her security is to have direct control over such a vital point of entry. "However, I suggest we first lay aside these theoretically arguments; I do believe we have gotten ahead of ourselves. What territories do the Kingdom of Normandie wish to claim from the Prussian protectorate? The French government naturally laid claim to all parts of France in their entirety, as was announced upon our entry some time ago." OOC: I think your current territory doesn't include Picardie, does it? That part should be under the Prussian protectorate. OOC: Picardie is under the Prussian Protectorate, My easternmost province is Haute-Normandie (I think that's what that one is). IC: Vincent took a small, smeared map cutout from his pants pocket. "As you can see, we aren't interested in much except for the regions of Picardie and Calais, the two regions circled on the map, however the line of demarcation would be at the River Oise. We would have the Northern coast of France, including a bit of the Western coast, and you have the rest of France to rule." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teriethien Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 "As you can see, we aren't interested in much except for the regions of Picardie and Calais, the two regions circled on the map, however the line of demarcation would be at the River Oise. We would have the Northern coast of France, including a bit of the Western coast, and you have the rest of France to rule." Though Louis did not felt particularly insistent upon thwarting Norman territorial ambitions, seeing the presented borders almost made him choke. He looked up to eye the King suspiciously now. The proposed borders cuts right through Paris rendering the French capital's strategic situation entirely untenable. He once thought the Norman ambitions were limited to a few coastal cities and landstrips, but it seemed he had it wrong. Besides, that was his power base right there; no upstart King is going to start cutting off chunks of his city! "We reject these proposals outright. Moreover we must question the motives behind these territorial ambitions," Louis said guardedly. "What reason could Normandie possibly have to want so much French land?" "Let me clarify my position a little - I might have given off the wrong impression earlier. I am not necessarily opposed in principle to giving the Kingdom a Channel coast line, nor any regions of France. Unless the loss of which thereof would render a French state unviable. But I have yet to see a valid justification behind the present territorial demands as submitted by King Vincent. There are no obvious reason why the regions of Picardy and Calais should be associated with the Normandie Kingdom, and must trust that they will be revealed to me soon. "Until then, the Interim Government of France requests that the great powers of Europe release into our sovereignty those lands and territories commonly and indisputably recognised as French, for they are ours by right of ancient tradition, cultural and national birthright." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacharth Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 "You know, coming to think of it, my Cartographer has given me the incorrect information. The Oise is far from where my drawn border is. Damn, I hate it when that happens. I am embarrassed. Ignore the river border, there is no clear line of demarcation I can see other than what is drawn on this map, but in essence, the entire rest of Calais and Picardie, Ile de France, including Paris, is yours." "My intentions? My intentions are to have the traditional Norman territories, even though you say that Calais was only an English city for 200 years, that city has transferred hands so often in the past decade that they probably don't know what ethnicity they are. Northern coast Frenchmen are mostly, if my census team gives me the correct information, Anglo-French. Even before the period of Nordland, Calais and Picardie were under Welsh control, so they are Gaelic areas." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teriethien Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) "You know, coming to think of it, my Cartographer has given me the incorrect information. The Oise is far from where my drawn border is. Damn, I hate it when that happens. I am embarrassed. Ignore the river border, there is no clear line of demarcation I can see other than what is drawn on this map, but in essence, the entire rest of Calais and Picardie, Ile de France, including Paris, is yours.""My intentions? My intentions are to have the traditional Norman territories, even though you say that Calais was only an English city for 200 years, that city has transferred hands so often in the past decade that they probably don't know what ethnicity they are. Northern coast Frenchmen are mostly, if my census team gives me the correct information, Anglo-French. Even before the period of Nordland, Calais and Picardie were under Welsh control, so they are Gaelic areas." Louis relaxed. He wasn't sure if this was a sign of incompetence or merely backing down from initial demands, but as long as his interests are secured he could be happy. "In that case, if Normandie limits her claims strictly to the regions of Picardie and Nord-Pas-de-Calais, a mutually satisfactory solution might be possible. As I have stressed earlier, Calais and Picardie are and have never been Norman territories in any sense. Regardless of the final outcome it will be France's stance these regions are inherently French. "Nonetheless, we concede that Normans too are French, and therefore control of French soil by Normandie will not be irreconcilable with our official policy. While Picardie have no relations to Normandie at all, I agree that Calais does indeed have some history with the Romans. Our objection to Normandie control of Nord-Pas-de-Calais is hence strictly due to strategic concerns. Provided that the Kingdom is able to satisfy our strategic needs, we may be able to work something out. "As a matter of fact France have already been planning to seek an agreement with Normandie on much of these. I have the draft terms right here," Louis pulled out an e-mail print out. 1. Normandie and France agrees to commit every available resource to the defence of each other in case of unprovoked attacks by a third party,2. Normandie will not provide any military access or other assistance to any nation or organisation in a state of war with France, 3. Normandie agrees that this treaty shall take precedence over any other international agreement that the Kingdom may see fit to participate in "If the King is willing to agree to these general principles, France will suspend her claims to the Nord-Pas-de-Calais region. As you can see these terms are not designed to be unfair to Normandie, and will greatly improve the security of both our states." Louis left the piece of paper on the table, and took a drink before continuing, "As for the region of Picardie, I reiterate that Normans have no valid claim to the region. Contingent upon the Kingdom's agreement to our first offer however, we recognise the need for an overland link from Normandy to Calais. "Accordingly, I would like to propose a form of land exchange. Again as I have mentioned earlier, the French interim government have wished to properly deal with the issue of the Kingdom of Normandie's southern borders. At the moment both of our governments control parts of the Poitou-Charentes region - a not entirely satisfactory solution. All of our latest reports indicate that the split is around 50-50, but cuts across usual administrative lines. Such a situation is bound to result in border conflicts. "Therefore we make this offer: if the Kingdom of Normandy is willing to consider withdrawing from their half of Poitou-Charentes, specifically the department of Poitou-Charentes, then France will be willing to do likewise for the entire region of Picardie. "How does that sound to you?" OOC: 'the entire rest of Calais and Picardie, Ile de France, including Paris, is yours.' <- wait a second you're giving up already? Edited June 28, 2009 by Teriethien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacharth Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 OOC: Nah, the way I drew the border, I looked at a map of France to find a good river border to match that one and I thought Oise would match it, however I neglected to see that it went straight through Paris. IC: Vincent slid the piece of paper closer to himself and looked the three points over. It seemed like a regular Mutual Defense Pact, however points two and three confused him. We won't provide military assistance to attackers, and we can't have anything else take precedent over other treaties, but it appears in this wording they can. If it was a trick, it was a poor one, but if it was just words on paper with the statements having an understood reversal, then it would be fine. "Hmm...would terms two and three be vice-versa also? That is the only thing we see that is stopping me from signing on. In any case, if they were true for you too, I think we could come to an agreement on that. However, the southern problem cannot be done, as our capital, Agirion is located in that province." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teriethien Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 OOC: Nah, the way I drew the border, I looked at a map of France to find a good river border to match that one and I thought Oise would match it, however I neglected to see that it went straight through Paris.IC: Vincent slid the piece of paper closer to himself and looked the three points over. It seemed like a regular Mutual Defense Pact, however points two and three confused him. We won't provide military assistance to attackers, and we can't have anything else take precedent over other treaties, but it appears in this wording they can. If it was a trick, it was a poor one, but if it was just words on paper with the statements having an understood reversal, then it would be fine. "Hmm...would terms two and three be vice-versa also? That is the only thing we see that is stopping me from signing on. In any case, if they were true for you too, I think we could come to an agreement on that. However, the southern problem cannot be done, as our capital, Agirion is located in that province." "Yes, they would be meant to be reciprocal. This is a rough draft of what France wishes to see, rather than a proper legal document or even proposal. I take it from this then that the Kingdom of Normandie will have no objections to a treaty based upon these understandings. "As for the borders I proposed, I'm afraid France is unwilling to make any further concessions. Perhaps a map would illustrate the extent to which we have compromised on this subject," Louis is starting to feel exasperated over the Norman's apparent unwillingness to compromise. However he is also utterly convinced that Norman cartographers have no idea what they are being paid to do, so maybe they deserve the benefit the doubt one last time. Motioining an aide over for a piece of outline map of France, he quickly scribbled all over the piece of paper. "I have drawn undisputed Norman claims in red and French claims white. The territories involved in our land swap proposal are coloured purple and gray respectively, and I have also marked the positions of our respective capitals. Mind you, the coordinates I have used here all came from Norman declarations. As the map points out, Agirion is quite some distance north of both the present borders and our proposal. I see no reason for Normandie to reject our more than generous offer - the Kingdom would still have gained substantial lands while keeping a Atlantic coast." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacharth Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Vincent looks at the map the diplomat just made, and back at his own. He chuckled a little, and sat back in his seat. "Then it appears we have a deal. I must apologize for the shoddy work in the cartography department. We are but a fledgling nation, and good cartographers are hard to find. Anyway, there are no arguments from our end. I would hope we can start off on a little better foot in our foreign affairs department once everything is made official." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teriethien Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 "We are in agreement then," Louis Rouvier beamed, certain he had done his job. "Well, now that we have the unpleasantness of border disputes behind us, I'm sure Normandie and France can look forward to a future of steadfast friendship." His eyes now turn towards the hosts of this conference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacharth Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 "Yes, hopefully," Vincent returned his smile with a warm smile of his own, and then turned his eyes to Tanzband. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franz Ferdinand Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Vega decides to smoke a cigar while waiting for it to be his turn to state his case in front of the Ministerpräsident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Confederation Posted June 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Tanzband looked at the French representatives with amazed eyes. It was almost too good to be true, the two worked out an agreement with no intervention...diplomacy at it's best. "Well then, that was amazing...I ofcourse vote in favor of both of you...." He gestured toward the Croat and the Bavarian. "You guys?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynneth Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 (edited) Tanzband looked at the French representatives with amazed eyes. It was almost too good to be true, the two worked out an agreement with no intervention...diplomacy at it's best. "Well then, that was amazing...I ofcourse vote in favor of both of you...." He gestured toward the Croat and the Bavarian. "You guys?" "They did a great job in convincing me to let them split the territory however the hell they want. Approved by Bavaria." Edited June 29, 2009 by Lynneth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franz Ferdinand Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Vega taps some ash into a tray while waiting for his turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) OOC: Who owns Brittany? From personal experiance, I know that Normandie and Brittany have their squabbles Who knew that a huge historical monument on the exact boarder would be so fought over. <__< Edited June 30, 2009 by BaronUberstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 "They did a great job in convincing me to let them split the territory however the hell they want. Approved by Bavaria." Amazed from the events Nadine didn't know a quick response "Euh... Yeah sure" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Confederation Posted June 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Tanzband looks down at his notes... "Excellent...Excellent...Denmark next?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 OOC: you said me next D: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Confederation Posted July 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 OOC: you said me next D: OOC: I lied I have better plans than just a silly conference for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Council of Ten Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) OOC: Who owns Brittany? From personal experiance, I know that Normandie and Brittany have their squabbles Who knew that a huge historical monument on the exact boarder would be so fought over. <__< Conti's sovereignty over Brittany has been established and asserted by this agreement with Scotland, then the Proxian Empire. Our relations with Normandie remain cordial and friendly. OOC: Of course folks in Normandie will never acknowledge that Bretagne is just way more beautiful Edited July 3, 2009 by Council of Ten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franz Ferdinand Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 "Good evening, Ministerpräsident Tanzband, I am Vega, self-proclaimed leader of the people of Lübeck. I am here representing the people of Lübeck, and I believe it is time for us to return from exile, back to our fatherland. We consider ourselves of Danish ethnicity, with Germanic roots as well. I wish to present to you our territorial claims in Europe: As you can see, this covers the regions of Denmark, Schleswig-Holstein, Hamburg, Bornholm and Skåneland. These regions are populated by an overall Lübeckian majority, and therefore, it is natural for me to request these lands. We have already forfeited our secure lands from where we served our exile to the local populaces within each place, and so, it isn't a problem. We have already started moving our core resources, technology, men, etc towards Europe, in preparation for your approval." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Confederation Posted July 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 "I'm a bit uneasy about the claims in Scandinavia...care to explain?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franz Ferdinand Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 "Well, what can I say, those regions have a majority Danish presence, while with our Germanic roots intertwined, we have the best of both worlds. Skåneland is historically important to us, due to past events in the area, while at the same time, it is home to a substantial Danish population." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacharth Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Erik Betrakte, former Kaiser of Norsvea, arrives at the meeting to request to watch over the talks about Scandinavia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Confederation Posted July 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 "Mr. Betrake, welcome...you look well." He stood and hugged Erik.. "Now...may you please place testimony on the areas of your former spheres of influence and their ethnic populations?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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