Neo Uruk Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 (Me, too.) Hi there. I'm in order with these sentiments as well to be quite honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 My point being is morality was just the point of view of the winning side this time, was there actually any morality in war or has there ever been morality in war? No, war has no room for morality it is and always has been kill or be killed. That may not completely apply in the cyber verse but it more or less holds true up to the point of "kill or be killed" since you can't actually die on a computer game. I'm not one of those people that believes that no war can be just. Rather, I now believe that a war can only be just and ever worth fighting when conditions are absolutely morally perfect and everything turns out exactly as I want it to turn out. It's much more proper to stand back and mock the imperfections of those whose efforts you benefit. I wouldn't consider either of those taking it too far. OOC: the desecration of fictitious flags was a reference to the absurd outrage displayed at LJ Scott's spilling wine on a real NPO flag. It's not one of the more serious examples of people taking things too far, but it's one of the funniest and an excellent one. I was going to use the guy that got an NPO tattoo, but that might have been a little cruel towards the poor sap. I'm going to assume you didn't know what I was talking about and that you don't actually think that that was as heinous an act as some made it out to be. As for your OP, I don't know whether you are just being sarcastic...or something completely different. Could you explain more clearly why exactly you are too good for Karma now? If I wanted to explain it more clearly I would have in the OP. And I'm not too good for Karma; I am better than Karma. I'm Sal's biggest fan I think the title is a good indication that I am my biggest fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 (edited) There are a great many people here who would argue that indifference is equivalent to being the perpetrator. This is me not caring. Unless I have a direct connection, i.e ; they're a friend. I honestly don't care what they have to say or tell me. I'll act how I want and nobody else can tell me otherwise. @Sal : I'm not mocking you one bit, you have the right to express your own opinions and ideals, I was just stating my own in turn. Edited June 20, 2009 by Random Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 (edited) No matter what they contained? Interesting.There are a great many people here who would argue that indifference is equivalent to being the perpetrator. If we can redirect this derailment back to my glorious OP, I'm arguing that indifference is the morally superior position when conditions are not to your exact liking. edit: and that's not to say indifference is the most morally superior position. A much better position is cynicism. Edited June 20, 2009 by Sal Paradise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 I think the title is a good indication that I am my biggest fan. I acknowledged your superiority long ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomInterrupt Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Sal Paradise, your avatar is perhaps the best example of imagery tied to posting. Also I see what you did there and I approve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Nakara Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Very well written, but there is something egotystical and narcasitic about this. "I can confidently look DOWN on you all and feel the great self-satisfaction the cynics must have felt. " I dont view myself better or worse than any person fighting on the Hegemony side or karma side, but to state you look DOWN on others may not have been the correct word usage. I do congratulate you on your word usage on most of it, but that statement ruined it for me. Sorry try harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Nicely written op. I have no idea what it means, but it was nicely written... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacky Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 I'm not one of those people that believes that no war can be just. Rather, I now believe that a war can only be just and ever worth fighting when conditions are absolutely morally perfect and everything turns out exactly as I want it to turn out. It's much more proper to stand back and mock the imperfections of those whose efforts you benefit. I generally am quite in tune with what you have to say but frankly you are wrong here. (Semi OOC: Also yes, I know as nation rulers communicating via this medium that sarcasm does not translate well but that's not what I mean.) In order to continue we must recognise two truths. 1) The ends do not justify the means. 2) The means alone can not make ends. That is to say that the journey you take is just as important as the reaching your desired destination. You can not reach a desired destination at all costs even if doing so would nullify the purpose of making the journey as that would be a waste of time. And also you can not abandon the journey just because it would not be as ideal as you would like it to be. The choices must be weighed and then a decision must be made. Can the journey be made? Is it worth making the journey? How commited am I to making the journey? All these questions to need to be asked before making such a journey. And if some of our fellow travellers choose to take a different path than us we can not shun them. We must respect their decisions as they respect ours. However, in the event that our fellow travellers would seek to hinder our progress, would seek to make our travel to the desired destination more arduous than need be we must confront them openly, rather than behind veiled threats, cynicism, and sarcasm. We must confront them in the clearness of day and ask: Whatchu talkin' bout willis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 I'm not one of those people that believes that no war can be just. Rather, I now believe that a war can only be just and ever worth fighting when conditions are absolutely morally perfect and everything turns out exactly as I want it to turn out. It's much more proper to stand back and mock the imperfections of those whose efforts you benefit. I feel the need to go further into this, only a bit though since I don't like putting so much effort into posting and in this game in general . Justice is part of a persons point of view, both sides of a conflict for example will think that their side has justice on it. (at least I'd hope so otherwise why else would they be fighting?) Not everybody is going to agree that one side is just and right, if they did and everybody agreed then there would be no justice, morality, or war. Everybody would be in perfect harmony and war wouldn't exist in the first place as well as these words would have no use or meaning. Although on the flip side I guess you could argue that justice would lie in what which the majority of the world or bob in this case leans too but then that would mean that justice was with the NPO for the past two years, which is possible but then this war's meaning or the meaning that people have been spouting would not exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jipps Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 (edited) This is me not caring. Unless I have a direct connection, i.e ; they're a friend. I honestly don't care what they have to say or tell me. I'll act how I want and nobody else can tell me otherwise.@Sal : I'm not mocking you one bit, you have the right to express your own opinions and ideals, I was just stating my own in turn. More power to you then. I wasn't say I agree with that conclusion, it just seems to be widely held these days. If we can redirect this derailment back to my glorious OP, I'm arguing that indifference is the morally superior position when conditions are not to your exact liking.edit: and that's not to say indifference is the most morally superior position. A much better position is cynicism. Talk about depressing. Wouldn't you need to take action to help turn the conditions to your liking? Edited June 20, 2009 by Jipps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raincoat2 Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 No matter what they contained? Interesting.There are a great many people here who would argue that indifference is equivalent to being the perpetrator. Who exactly? And allying yourself with someone is not equivalent to indifference. That would be aiding and abetting. Indifference would be staying uninvolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringMeTheHorizon Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 (edited) OOC: most topics like this are in Open World RP, an OOC forum. I put this here, in an IC forum, specifically because I realize this is a game, and I couldn't seriously say any of the things I said without it being IC.You could dismiss anything ever said on these forums with "hurrr it's just a game", but those of us with any real sense of what this game is only tend to do so when it's startlingly obvious that the poster is taking things too far. EZI, hunting down Nazi bogeymen, outrage over the desecration of fictitious flags being examples. Users of the Fantasy RP forums get into heated debates of such childishness and vindictiveness as to put all of us here to shame. And yet nobody ever goes into Fantasy RP and smugly dismisses them because this is just 'a game'. It's likely that those RPers don't care what we think, and we are intelligent enough to leave them to their game. So Mr. Horizon, if you wish to play this game for its fascinating arrangement of pixels that's your decision. But next time you feel the need to be a witless boor in an in character forum, please keep it out of my thread. I don't care to know that you have nothing interesting to say. OOC: Report me for OOC then, as i dont play this game as a character and i treat all my actions as i would my self, in real life, would do. Everyone can chose to play the game as they chose, but simply stating that you are better then all of you is snoobish and not in good morals in a game... My view of, bob, and its entities are in the views of my own ruler ship and do not reflect those of others. Edited June 20, 2009 by BringMeTheHorizon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raincoat2 Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 This is me not caring. Unless I have a direct connection, i.e ; they're a friend. I honestly don't care what they have to say or tell me. I'll act how I want and nobody else can tell me otherwise.@Sal : I'm not mocking you one bit, you have the right to express your own opinions and ideals, I was just stating my own in turn. in my opinion, that is a very self centered attititude. Enjoy every moment with all you got. The world ends with you. If you want to enjoy life, expand your world. Learn more about these alliances you are not directly connected to. You gotta push your horizons out as far as they'll go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raincoat2 Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Very well written, but there is something egotystical and narcasitic about this. "I can confidently look DOWN on you all and feel the great self-satisfaction the cynics must have felt. " I dont view myself better or worse than any person fighting on the Hegemony side or karma side, but to state you look DOWN on others may not have been the correct word usage. I do congratulate you on your word usage on most of it, but that statement ruined it for me. Sorry try harder. *Woosh* Report me for OOC then, as i dont play this game as a character and i treat all my actions as i would my self, in real life, would do. Everyone can chose to play the game as they chose, but simply stating that you are better then all of you is snoobish and not in good morals in a game... *Woosh* Both of you really need to reread the OP. It appears to have gone over your head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 (edited) Sal Paradise, your avatar is perhaps the best example of imagery tied to posting. The source image has a speech bubble that says "then, and only then, will I spank you". I wish I could fit it in somehow, but it wouldn't be legible. Very well written, but there is something egotystical and narcasitic about this."I can confidently look DOWN on you all and feel the great self-satisfaction the cynics must have felt. " You didn't have to read that far to make your astute observation. See the title. I generally am quite in tune with what you have to say but frankly you are wrong here. (Semi OOC: Also yes, I know as nation rulers communicating via this medium that sarcasm does not translate well but that's not what I mean.)In order to continue we must recognise two truths. 1) The ends do not justify the means. 2) The means alone can not make ends. That is to say that the journey you take is just as important as the reaching your desired destination. You can not reach a desired destination at all costs even if doing so would nullify the purpose of making the journey as that would be a waste of time. And also you can not abandon the journey just because it would not be as ideal as you would like it to be. The choices must be weighed and then a decision must be made. Can the journey be made? Is it worth making the journey? How commited am I to making the journey? All these questions to need to be asked before making such a journey. And if some of our fellow travellers choose to take a different path than us we can not shun them. We must respect their decisions as they respect ours. However, in the event that our fellow travellers would seek to hinder our progress, would seek to make our travel to the desired destination more arduous than need be we must confront them openly, rather than behind veiled threats, cynicism, and sarcasm. We must confront them in the clearness of day and ask: Whatchu talkin' bout willis? Your ability to overextend a metaphor exceeds my own. I am jealous sir. I actually planned on carrying the lemon thing to the end, but I didn't have the creative stamina for such a tedious task. Edited June 20, 2009 by Sal Paradise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 in my opinion, that is a very self centered attititude. Enjoy every moment with all you got. The world ends with you. If you want to enjoy life, expand your world. Learn more about these alliances you are not directly connected to. You gotta push your horizons out as far as they'll go. Why? I just finished saying I don't care if or what others opinions of me are and what makes you think you have that right to tell me what to do? Who are you to judge me anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jipps Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Who exactly? And allying yourself with someone is not equivalent to indifference. That would be aiding and abetting. Indifference would be staying uninvolved. All you have to do is take a quick stroll on the forums these days to find one side critizing another about their indifference to past events, the most recent ones being related to the previous curb stomping of alliances and the indifference of the community to them. Is there anything right to the diffusion of responsibility? [OOC]Is it morally superior to be indifferent towards a murder you see being commited?[/OOC] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Talk about depressing. Wouldn't you need to take action to help turn the conditions to your liking? You may, but you should only do so if those actions you take are also perfectly moral and under perfect conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jipps Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 You may, but you should only do so if those actions you take are also perfectly moral and under perfect conditions. Which is impossible. So you sit here so morally superior above everyone else, cynical to all others who try, and indifferent to all actions so as to not lose your moral values? How boring and oddly sarcastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 On the contrary, it is quite entertaining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 [OOC]Is it morally superior to be indifferent towards a murder you see being commited?[/OOC] [OOC]You can't compare a RL murder to a destruction of 1's and 0's followed by a possible humiliation on the internet, it just doesn't work.[/OOC] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jipps Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 [OOC]You can't compare a RL murder to a destruction of 1's and 0's followed by a possible humiliation on the internet, it just doesn't work.[/OOC] [OOC]You are right perhaps a robbery is a better equivalent. [/OOC] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 [OOC]You are right perhaps a robbery is a better equivalent. [/OOC] OOC: no, it's not, which is why you shouldn't use OOC tags to make a point in an IC thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erich Ludendorff Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 -snip- I was going to use the guy that got an NPO tattoo, but that might have been a little cruel towards the poor sap. -snip- I'm skeptical. Pics or it didn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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