Will NPO's membership revolt?

[Tromp]

So Karma is now attacking NPO membership because they agree with their leadership. Classy move.

Karma? Really?

Come on now, it's not like every Karma member says that, let alone Karma alliance leaders.

[Fallen Fool]

You do realize the body of Pacifica (as a majority) does not accept these terms and we CHEERED for Moo denying them? Its not just the leadership that is united and supportive of Moo.... its all of us. Learn that fact and understand the futility of this topic

Why is it that when I say "quashing dissent" you automatically assume I mean only the most draconian of methods? No, when I said a variety of means I meant a variety.

Means such as a persuasive OP designed to emulate a [ooc]David and Goliath-esque struggle[/ooc] with NPO playing the part of the smaller man or perhaps some invocation of the First Patriotic War as an example for loyalty was used. Maybe having the initial pages of the thread clogged with influential members who set the tone of the thread using some meaningless buzzword or phrase, or even a wall of text, designed to maximize potential support for official government policy.

See you soon.

Okay?

Brehon, you only did that after we strapped you to a chair and beat you. Admit it to them, or we'll do it again.

Mindless sarcasm utilized poorly.

How quaint.

[hawk11]

Mindless sarcasm utilized poorly.

How quaint.

Make no mistake, I made no attempt to utilize it. I fired it out there with reckless abandon.

[Matthew Conrad]

NPO's general membership is, forgive my crudeness, like that confused little puppy who follows wherever he's pointed to by his master.

[Ogaden]

NPO's general membership is, forgive my crudeness, like that confused little puppy who follows wherever he's pointed to by his master.

That was rude, disrespectful and unnecessary.

Like Sileath, you are a credit to your alliance.

[hawk11]

That was rude, disrespectful and unnecessary.

Like Sileath, you are a credit to your alliance.

Personally, I think we should just not honor the post with a response. It will show how valued the opinion is.

[Fallen Fool]

Make no mistake, I made no attempt to utilize it. I fired it out there with reckless abandon.

So you purposely choose to post like an incompetent?

[Mister Roboto]

The answer is no.

This man speaks wise words. It has nothing to do with being brainwashed, or anything of the sort.

[Mister Roboto]

NPO's general membership is, forgive my crudeness, like that confused little puppy who follows wherever he's pointed to by his master.

As opposed to Sparta? I don't see how NPO's membership is any different in these regards than any other alliance with a sanction spot.

[hawk11]

So you purposely choose to post like an incompetent?

Yes, actually I did. I find the idea that we're able to repress our members own feelings and opinions to the point of brainwashing (for lack of better word) laughable. I truly can't honor the argument with a valid response because it's opinion itself. Nothing I can say will change opinion. Thus, like this thread, I choose ridiculousness.

Edit: I can feel this conversation is going to go down an enlightening path, so let's not count me out until I'm able to get back to a computer. See you in a few hours.

Edited June 18, 2009 by hawk_11

[Elegarth]

The independent thinkers all left - and became Vox Populi.

There's nobody there left with a free mind, to lead a revolt.

Because it has been proved once and again that independent thinking can only lead to such behavior.

Mr, Starfox has just made a point on how independent thinking can NEVER lead you to Pacifica as it is, which makes me wonder how we were create do begin with... If I am - excuse me the cliche - and vicious evil nation rules with a strong desire for oppression and unfairness, can't my independent thinking lead me do a vicious evil alliance with desire for oppression and unfairness? Apparently not.

Your argument fails....

[Bob Janova]

I find the idea that we're able to repress our members own feelings and opinions to the point of brainwashing (for lack of better word) laughable.

Oh no, that's not how it's done. You just control information so that individuals are strongly encouraged to reach the 'right' opinion. So much of politics is subjective that it would be really easy for an insular membership, as NPO is. For example, I'm sure that right now you are portraying the war as a struggle for survival, in which NPO was jumped for little or no reason by a large group of aggressive alliances who wish to see NPO disband. That encourages the loyalty and self-righteous 'victim card' opinion.

[Matthew Conrad]

That was rude, disrespectful and unnecessary.

Like Sileath, you are a credit to your alliance.

Thank you, I've actually had many conversation with people who've had disagreements with me and have found me a very reasonable person who is a credit to his alliance. Unfortunately for you, you are viewed a great example of the NPO brain trust which has brought you to this point. If you feel like you need to address my character, you know where to find me.

As opposed to Sparta? I don't see how NPO's membership is any different in these regards than any other alliance with a sanction spot.

NPO's membership is notoriously restricted in holding significant disagreements with top leadership. I have met several friends wherein they were pushed/kicked out of NPO because of how close minded the internal culture is. I find it curious how you have not noticed this, if nothing else, through the recent wave of posts by some of the general membership after the gag order was lifted. Have you ever seen a Pacifican noticeably argue with one of their leaders and manage to survive in the alliance? Everyone who has has either been kicked or left before they could be kicked.

[Letum]

Oh no, that's not how it's done. You just control information so that individuals are strongly encouraged to reach the 'right' opinion. So much of politics is subjective that it would be really easy for an insular membership, as NPO is. For example, I'm sure that right now you are portraying the war as a struggle for survival, in which NPO was jumped for little or no reason by a large group of aggressive alliances who wish to see NPO disband. That encourages the loyalty and self-righteous 'victim card' opinion.

You do realise that I am reading the same OWF as you, right?

[Bilrow]

You do realise that I am reading the same OWF as you, right?

I'm not I'm using a medium (OOC: OWF) that is accessed via Unimatrix that weeds out posts that are anti-NPO. I'm lucky. Poor Letum.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Bilrow

[Sarai]

This is Sarai from Fushun City State, elected councilwoman in the NPO... A position I worked for and wanted because I believe in the Alliance.

I joined a year ago or so with the NPO and have not experienced this brainwashing or whatever that is said to exist. I have free access to read what I want, ask questions in IRC of whom I want and argue to death with the IOs and so forth. When they have had enough they shhhsh me, which is fine, because I respect the Chain of Command.

The NPO is accused of many things, one thing we have not done is brainwash our members. I am an adult and able to make up my own damn mind about things and am pretty sick of watching purile comments about the state of our membership here.

Frankly, disgusting that some of you out there portray other people as mindless sheep. Get a grip.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Sarai

[BikeCat]

You forgot option 5169377

The NPO will change its name to New Peacemode Order, and will form the "Hippy bloc" with all the other alliances who don't fight.

Oh fun, FAN can join them and they can be the best of buddies.

Seriously the people that complained when NPO belittled alliances for using peace mode as a tactic are doing the same thing now.

Does it make you right because NPO did it before? No. Does it make you hypocrites? Yes.

Both sides are laughable. This war did CN a great service in removing a problem and revealing several more.

The independent thinkers all left - and became Vox Populi.

There's nobody there left with a free mind, to lead a revolt.

Don't start with the holier than thou or try to make yourself look like something you're not. Vox was never an order of great free thinkers leading a revolt. It was a small select group of several disenfranchised, albeit charismatic, players seeking revenge against those they felt personally wronged them. Following behind them were the same thoughtless sheep NPO is being bashed for being full of, except these sheep were on different sides.

If only the public had seen the squabbling between Vox leadership, they would know that while you were unified in fighting a common enemy. There wasn't much cohesion aside from your common hatred of a foe.

While you were successful and I must tip my hat to you for that, you are no white knights. You are no Walford.

Edited June 18, 2009 by BikeCat

[wing ruler]

I have a question with the whole NPO sig saying proud NPO warrior that sentence makes no sence to me what warrior hides in peace mode ?

[Bob Janova]

You do realise that I am reading the same OWF as you, right?

Yes. You are a senior member and therefore you are not going to drop the NPO anyway, and you need to know what the rest of the world is thinking in order to make the internal information roughly accurate. Most of the ten or twenty recognisable faces from NPO are IO or above, and those that aren't are senior members who do not need to be 'brainwashed' (and no, I don't like that term either).

For 600 or more of the members, though, I never see them on here. I suspect that they do not even pay these boards a flying visit, and certainly will get the large majority of their information internally. This is true in most alliances, but from the misinformed posts you get from NPO members when they do hit these boards, it seems the NPO spins things more in its internal posts than most other alliances.

Sarai, it is not a 'process' that you would notice, or apply directly. It may not even be deliberate, although with expert (and deliberate) propagandists like Vladimir and Paul I suspect that it is. Some of your posts in the other thread indicate that you certainly have taken in the NPO point of view and its sense of cultural superiority, and thus the 'brainwashing' has worked well.

Most members in the NPO, like in most alliances, will be semi-active and will believe and do whatever the senior membership tells them. The senior membership and government has a heavy investment in the alliance (again like most others) and makes moves for political gain. But the NPO seems to have a much better way of getting the active but low security members to think the right way and not to question the internal story than most alliances do. This is what people exaggerate to call 'brainwashing', and I suspect is an internal version of the high quality propaganda team they have for external purposes.

Anyway, all of this is rather off topic, apart from the fact that such an internal propaganda team will make it much harder to get the membership to revolt. I don't think that even a normal alliance in NPO's position would do that anyway, though.

[Vhalen]

This is Sarai from Fushun City State, elected councilwoman in the NPO... A position I worked for and wanted because I believe in the Alliance.

I joined a year ago or so with the NPO and have not experienced this brainwashing or whatever that is said to exist. I have free access to read what I want, ask questions in IRC of whom I want and argue to death with the IOs and so forth. When they have had enough they shhhsh me, which is fine, because I respect the Chain of Command.

The NPO is accused of many things, one thing we have not done is brainwash our members. I am an adult and able to make up my own damn mind about things and am pretty sick of watching purile comments about the state of our membership here.

Frankly, disgusting that some of you out there portray other people as mindless sheep. Get a grip.

I think it's less brainwashing than indoctrination, and the initial choice of words was unfortunate. Would you say that frequent long radio silences encourage NPO members to read a medium (OOC: OWF) and access opinions outside the Order? I have to take your statement about questions and arguments with a grain of salt, given how many ex-members I've seen saying they started to get involved/ask questions, when suddenly leadership grew perilously distant and displeased. Perhaps your saving grace is that you shush when told?

Me, I'm not saying they're mindless sheep, but I do think that they're subtly encouraged not to use their minds.

[Balkan Banania]

Oh no, that's not how it's done. You just control information so that individuals are strongly encouraged to reach the 'right' opinion. So much of politics is subjective that it would be really easy for an insular membership, as NPO is. For example, I'm sure that right now you are portraying the war as a struggle for survival, in which NPO was jumped for little or no reason by a large group of aggressive alliances who wish to see NPO disband. That encourages the loyalty and self-righteous 'victim card' opinion.

It is indeed a struggle of survival and indeed the spark responsible for the declarations can be described as a minor incidence (for a war of this magnitude), but the reasons of Karma to escalate the war are logical from a political side of view and of course so is our decision to refuse terms with a loophole. Hmm.. rereading what I wrote it seems you are right, although I don't know how I can play the 'victim card, but I will catch up with you all

[Ogaden]

Yes. You are a senior member and therefore you are not going to drop the NPO anyway, and you need to know what the rest of the world is thinking in order to make the internal information roughly accurate. Most of the ten or twenty recognisable faces from NPO are IO or above, and those that aren't are senior members who do not need to be 'brainwashed' (and no, I don't like that term either).

For 600 or more of the members, though, I never see them on here. I suspect that they do not even pay these boards a flying visit, and certainly will get the large majority of their information internally. This is true in most alliances, but from the misinformed posts you get from NPO members when they do hit these boards, it seems the NPO spins things more in its internal posts than most other alliances.

Sarai, it is not a 'process' that you would notice, or apply directly. It may not even be deliberate, although with expert (and deliberate) propagandists like Vladimir and Paul I suspect that it is. Some of your posts in the other thread indicate that you certainly have taken in the NPO point of view and its sense of cultural superiority, and thus the 'brainwashing' has worked well.

Most members in the NPO, like in most alliances, will be semi-active and will believe and do whatever the senior membership tells them. The senior membership and government has a heavy investment in the alliance (again like most others) and makes moves for political gain. But the NPO seems to have a much better way of getting the active but low security members to think the right way and not to question the internal story than most alliances do. This is what people exaggerate to call 'brainwashing', and I suspect is an internal version of the high quality propaganda team they have for external purposes.

Anyway, all of this is rather off topic, apart from the fact that such an internal propaganda team will make it much harder to get the membership to revolt. I don't think that even a normal alliance in NPO's position would do that anyway, though.

Bob,

You are assuming a systematic issue where in reality the issue is systemic. NPO members very rarely come here for one reason and one reason only: they are attacked, mocked, trolled and reviled, their words are parsed and used against them at every opportunity, and in general it is no fun to post here if you are NPO. It's work.

You will notice very few GGA or IRON members post on the boards for the same reason.

Were you to discipline your members for trolling or attacking people, and were other alliances to do the same, you would see a lot more people on these boards, from all alliances.

Basically you have made this place as unwelcoming for NPO as the fires of hell, and then blaming them for not hanging around in here all the time.

Edited June 18, 2009 by James Dahl

[Fallen Fool]

Wisdom

You hit the nail on the head Bob.

While NPO has, on occasion, relied on deleting posts in order to maintain internal discipline, more often then not they rely things like internal propaganda, and the installation and preservation of a mob mentality directed by the alliances leadership, and by influential "trusted" members.

And before I'm called crazy, let me remind you of Dilber's little operation designed to discredit Polar within NPO. Who staffed that operation? Government members like UmbraeNoctem and Lord Strider, senior middle management like MariMassa and DarkMistress, and loud mouthed regular members like Doppelganger and Doitzel (who unfortunately for Dilber remained loyal to the idea of one combined Order).

Basically you have made this place as unwelcoming for NPO as the fires of hell, and then blaming them for not hanging around in here all the time.

Where did Bob blame the regular members of NPO for anything?

He was merely stating the fact that most NPO members are reliant on internal, and likely very bias, sources of information.

[Sarai]

I think it's less brainwashing than indoctrination, and the initial choice of words was unfortunate. Would you say that frequent long radio silences encourage NPO members to read a medium (OOC: OWF) and access opinions outside the Order? I have to take your statement about questions and arguments with a grain of salt, given how many ex-members I've seen saying they started to get involved/ask questions, when suddenly leadership grew perilously distant and displeased. Perhaps your saving grace is that you shush when told?

Me, I'm not saying they're mindless sheep, but I do think that they're subtly encouraged not to use their minds.

Hmmm, again there's not much of that. We have atmosphere and we have history, these aren't taught in some kind of harsh way. As with most alliances we focus on building new members up in terms of Infrastructure and the basics and we invite them to read and browse our library. Now realistically as I'm sure the case is in many alliances reading of long tracts of history or thoughts about our place on the planet is not always something a member wants to do.

What I am generally saying is, people are held to account for doing their job. Their job is not to tick boxes of some type of behaviour. We just ask they follow basic rules of politeness, courtesy, not tech raiding and those kind of things. In return they join a large alliance that used to be #1. It was an attractive proposition that allowed rulers who perhaps were quite busy and just wanted to fight a chance to get involved in an Alliance that was always fighting!

Those of us who post on (OOC: OWF) do so when we are allowed. But the number one complaint we get from our fellow members is that the reason they don't post even when radio silence is listed is that everyone else makes it so unfriendly for them to post anyway they don't bother. With 700 members on our own communication system (OOC: Forums) we can have intelligent chat and discussion and games and so on without being swamped by often quite frankly nasty posts and sniping.

Sure, some NPO members are arrogant and we do apologise on their behalf if they come here with the wrong attitude. But by far, you see a very small subset because they tend to get what they want from us without coming here, or are discouraged when they do by the villification and retreat back to be among friends.

That's how I see it anyway. I've only been here a year and I don't see too much point in (OOC: the OWF) at least until things settle down.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Sarai

[Diogenes]

"Will NPO's membership revolt?"

No way!